Talk:Bob Lambert (undercover police officer)

Evidence

He's a real arse... the evidence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02c9mf9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.75.149.57 (talk) 03:56, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Rename the article

I don't think the (academic) suffix is appropriate considering that most of the article doesn't deal with his academic activities. How about Bob Lambert (police officer)? AadaamS (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that he is no longer a police officer -- he's an academic. There's probably a guideline on this sort of issue... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:08, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Indeed there is a WP:QUALIFIER guideline for adding qualifiers, it says The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in his or her own right.. Imho he seems a lot more noted for policework than academia. AadaamS (talk) 20:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough, I suppose. I do worry a bit that people who look only at the title will gain the impression he is still a police officer. But I see the point you're making. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 17 April 2015

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Bob Lambert (undercover police officer). bd2412 T 19:19, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Bob Lambert (academic) → Bob Lambert (police officer) – Although he retired in 2008 and later became an academic, he served as a police officer for 31 years and it is as a police officer that he is best-known. He would probably not have an article on the strength of his status as an academic. Previous attempts at moving have been reverted with the comment that it's what he is now that's important, but I disagree. The best disambiguator is what he is best-known for and what readers might know him for. The main opposer of the move seems to have conceded in the discussion above that the proposed name is reasonable. I don't think the concern that people may think he was still a police officer is valid. That's not what disambiguation is for. After all, we don't use the disambiguators "(dead)" or "(retired)" to indicate that people aren't still functioning in the roles they are known for! We disambiguate them as if they were still alive or still working, so I don't see why we need to point out he's changed professions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:13, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose He is an academic and university lecturer. I'm not concerned that people would still think he was a serving police officer, but he is now an academic. I see no good reason to alter the status quo. Keri (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Agree he is notable as a police officer, not an academic. Unless someone can somehow prove that he is more notable as an academic. AadaamS (talk) 16:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Also see WP:QUALIFIER where it states that: The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in his or her own right. Clearly academic does not fit this description. AadaamS (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I think you're reading too much into WP:QUALIFIER - a guideline "best treated with common sense..." Lambert was a police officer, and is an academic. If further disambiguation were needed, ie there was another 'Bob Lambert (academic)' then '(police officer)' would be useful. He is only disambiguated in the first place because of the existence of a sportsman. Keri (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
    • You are placing a too strong emphasis on recentism and notability is timeless. The question is what he's most notable for unless we go with Greg's suggestion and use "(police officer and academic)". Also, you'll have to provide reliable sources to back up your claim that Lambert is notable as an academic, because no RS in the article back up this claim. There are plenty of sources to verify that he's notable as a police officer. AadaamS (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• @Nomoskedasticity: Keri (talk) 16:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Also worth noting that Lambert came to public attention as an academic in the field of Islamic terrorism before he was outed as an undercover cop. He was a regular 'talking head' on Al Jazeera etc in 2010, 2011. Keri (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment WP:AT may present unreasoned nonsense to say things like "it would be inappropriate to title an article "Queen (rock band)", as Queen (band) is precise enough to distinguish the rock band from other uses of the term "Queen"" and quality of description goes out of the window. Britannica presents Queen (British rock group). There is no rational reason why we can't, for instance, present, Bob Lambert (former police officer and academic). Again Britannica presents subjects such as Frederik van Zyl Slabbert (South African politician and academic). In the case of Bob Lambert he is in categories Category:Academics of the University of Exeter, Category:Academics of the University of St Andrews, Category:Metropolitan Police officers, Category:Police spies and Category:Members of the Order of the British Empire. I think it makes sense to apply both descriptions. He will be "familiar" to some as a police officer and "familiar" to others as an academic. GregKaye 19:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support or move to Bob Lambert (undercover police officer) for improved clarity. His notability appears to be primarily related to his role as an undercover police officer. Lots of articles on Wikipedia are about people who no longer play football, and may have some current public notability in a different capacity (e.g., as a team manager, author, businessman, motivational speaker, or actor), but are still listed as football players in article titles, and similarly for other former roles. Please note that I have just filed an RM at Talk:Bob Lambert#Requested move 17 April 2015, suggesting to move that article to Bob Lambert (cricketer). —BarrelProof (talk) 22:31, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support since he is not known for being an academic. BarrelProof's suggestion seems like a good one (Bob Lambert (undercover police officer)). 73.222.28.191 (talk) 03:01, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I'm laughing a bit--if we had to come up with a parenthetical for GWB, would we call him George W. Bush (painter)? Red Slash 04:08, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

  Best comment – ever. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment as per Red Slash. Is Bob Lambert working as an "undercover police officer" while in his current work at the University of St Andrews and at London Metropolitan University and is he just there to jump into bed with people. The article presents:

Robert Lambert ... is a British academic and former undercover police officer.

Suggest Bob Lambert (former undercover police officer). Bob Lambert (undercover police officer and lecturer) or Bob Lambert (former undercover police officer and lecturer) is more descriptive though, considering history, maybe arguably not greatly deserved. Per academic profiles at st andrews and london metropolitan university presenting Robert ... Lambert as a lecturer and as per protest content such as Sack Bob Lambert. GregKaye 09:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Ping Necrothesp, Keri, BarrelProof, AadaamS, 73.222.28.191 GregKaye 09:24, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Please note that the web sites at universities where he is employed are primary self-published sources. On Wikipedia, we generally try to pay more attention to sources that are objective and unaffiliated with the subject of the article that discuss the topic in detail. Basically, I don't think we should base much of our characterization of a person on the self-portrayal that is promoted by themselves and their employer. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:05, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye:, if you want to include lecturer you have to find WP:RS to WP:V verify that he's notable as a lecturer. As BarrelProof has already stated, WP:SPS sources can be used for some things but they can't be used to verify notability. Only WP:RS can do that. So, which secondary sources do you think verify that he's notable as a lecturer? AadaamS (talk) 16:56, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• I'm sufficiently persuaded by the reasoning presented above that Bob Lambert (former undercover police officer) or Bob Lambert (former police officer) is probably a more suitable qualifier. Keri (talk) 14:50, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

  To the best of my awareness, we generally don't include "former" in parenthetical disambiguators for people who are primarily notable for things they formerly did. For example, there are lots of people on Wikipedia that are disambiguated simply with "(cricketer)", "(footballer)", "(tennis player)", "(politician)", or similar, who no longer actively participate in the described roles and activities. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. We do not usually use more than one disambiguator or use "former" in a disambiguator. Many of the people we write about are actually "former" everything as many of them are dead! -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:25, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

True we typically cut things to a minimum even thought there might have been useful information we might present. GregKaye 20:25, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support per nom, only as proposed. "Former" is bad practice, and per WP:D, disambiguators should be concise and non-unique, which many of the other alternatives suggested here badly fail. --BDD (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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