Talk:Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)

This will be gradually expanded in the next few months.Malaiya (talk) 06:49, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

OR title

The page name is obviously original research. I've provided the full citation of Daya Ram Sahni's catalogue entry on the Gautama Buddha page. At no place does he call it "Dharmachakra Pravartana Buddha." The page should be quietly AfD'd. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:54, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: There is indeed a case for finding a more adequate name, that's a good point. But in that case, what is needed is not an WP:AFD, but simply a change of page name. "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)" may be an improvement, and it follows the Catalogue of the Museum of Archaeology at Sarnath.पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

But please examine the content of this page. It is garbage. There is much more in my caption on the Gautama Buddha page than there is in this entire page. It becomes a content fork for useless fluff. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:28, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: You are using some strong words for an article that describes a masterpiece. Perhaps you thought it should about the historic person Gautama Buddha? Malaiya (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: The content of the page is a different matter altogether (it seemed your primary issue was with the page name, per the above). The statue is world-famous and certainly deserves its own page, it's for us to improve what has been done so far (please note I'm basically uninvolved here, I only have contributed a link, and today a template and an infobox). I suggest we first address your initial concern and make the move to the title given by the museum catalogue "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)". पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not agreeable to that title. It can mean many things. Frankly, right now I have other issues. My main concern is that this page not be linked to the caption in the Gautama Buddha page. What you do with this page is your issue, but it can't be linked there. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:51, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Readers unfamiliar with the Buddha should not be distracted to such a poorly written page. It is a disservice to readers. Blatant disservice. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, so I'll make the move ("What you do with this page is your issue"). As for the link from the Gautama Buddha page, this is not for you to decide since the link was long-standing and you made a Bold Move in removing it. You will have to make your point on the Talk Page there, per WP:BRD. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 18:57, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

apparently you seem to think that changing the article's name will remove the garbage (read OR) it is stuffed with. It is desecration of Buddhism, much like the defacing of the Buddha's statues. In other words, a beautiful statue should not be linked to a page that defaces it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:03, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: If you loathe the article this much, why not delete the unsourced material that you believe to be falsifying or add cleanup tags? Iskandar323 (talk) 12:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 23 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved with no prejudice to some other, different title (non-admin closure) casualdejekyll 00:50, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

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Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath) → Sarnath Buddha sermon sculpture – The current article title for this sculpture is not adequately supported as a WP:COMMONNAME for the piece, and is also inadequate as a descriptive title, as it suggests the article is about an event, not an artwork. I believe my proposed renaming encompasses the key elements of identifying information better. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:34, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• 

  "Buddha preaching his First Sermon" in the Sarnath Museum Catalogue (Plate X) [1]

  Oppose. Keep current title "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)" as at least it is the way it is designated in the Catalogue of the Museum of Archaeology at Sarnath :Sahni, Daya Ram. Catalogue of the Museum of Archaeology at Sarnath. p. Plate X.. The proposed alternative sounds clumsy in English. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

It is hard to beat the current title, which sounds like an event, not an object (with the added delight of a location in parenthesis), on clumsiness. A museum catalogue is not explicitly a reliable source, and in any case, that is just one source, which does nothing to demonstrate any sort of commonality. It is also not a name, but a descriptive title labelling an artefact based on a certain archaeological interpretation or point of view. No cited reliable sources even currently detail how it is known that this sculpture specifically depicts the Buddha's 'first sermon'. The relevant section in the article is uncited. The entire notion of the current title is therefore of fairly dubious attribution. The catalogue presumably also mentions that it is a sculpture - a piece of descriptive information that is currently woefully absent from the title here. There are two quotes referencing the statue in the article, and one says "the Sarnath seated image of the Buddha", the other "Gupta period depiction of the Buddha", neither of which support the notion of the current title being any form of common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: Please look at Plate X (an image of the sculpture with a title) at the end of the Sarnath Catalogue [2]. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 14:22, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I defer to the collective. I don't really think this abides by MOS:ART/TITLE in any shape or form, but I'm not super invested. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"Where there are several variant titles, preference is usually given to the predominant one used by art historians writing in English, and if this is not clear, the English title used by the owning museum." Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

IF we take this to be a title, and not merely a descriptive phrase. I doubt the museum anticipated this literal usage. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Not the English title used by the owning museum at all, just Pat's usual sloppy parsing. I'm surprised they haven't drawn red squares around the chakras. There are at least a dozen images of the Buddha preaching his first sermon at Sarnath in the museum. They are distinguished by the catalog entry number, heights, and a short description. Sahni himself refers that way to them in his books. Like I said, Pat is engaging in disastrous OR (for Wikipedia) by linking this third-rate page to the biography of a major figure of humanity. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Sahni, himself, in his book Guide to the Buddhist ruins of Sarnath published also by the Government Printing Press, Calcutta, 1917, refers to them by the number, height, and short description. "Among the Boddhisattva images, the standing figures of Avalokitesvara (B(d)l), 4' 0" high, Manjusri, B(d) 6), 3' 10 1/2"high, and Maitreya tlie Messiah the Buddhists ~(B(d) 2), 4' 6" high, standing”against the left jamb of- the entrance to the next room, deserve special notice. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:41, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

An additional source: Upinder Singh calls the statue specifically "Buddha in the dharmachakra pravartana mudra, Sarnath" in Singh, Upinder (2008). A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Pearson Education India. p. xiv. ISBN 978-81-317-1677-9., and describes the statue in detail in page 534. This name sounds too arcane in my opinion, and I still prefer to Keep the current designation from the Sarnath Museum "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)". पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 14:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

• Keep per Pat. The proposed title is at least as confusing, and hardly idiomatic English. But the title could be italicized, which might make it clearer it is a work not an event, although the tense in "Preaching" should make this clear. Otherwise Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath sculpture), but I don't think this is needed. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  What Pat has taken to be the catalog entry is just the caption at the end to the photographs taken by the Thomason College of Civil Engineering in Roorkee (whose own photograph I was lucky enough to take before the security shooed me away.) Like I said, there are at least a dozen images (statues) of the Buddha preaching his first sermon in the Sarnath museum. More is needed that just that simple descriptive caption of Plate X.

  • Please tell me how you will be disambiguating the catalog entries of the Buddha preaching his first sermon. I've mentioned that I was in the museum when photography was banned and I was being shown around by an official, but I remember seeing several statues. There is preaching cross-legged and preaching in the European position (not this one in necessarily (I don't remember it), but others) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:46, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

B(b) 181–184, Buddha preaching his first sermon at Sarnath

B (b) 181.—Image (ht. 5' 3" up to the top of the halo ; width at base 2' 7") of Gautama Buddha seated cross-legged, preaching the first sermon at Sarnath, on a thick cushion supported on a seat with moulded legs. (and continues: The position of the hands in front of the breast conforms to that in other images representing this scene with the only difference that in this case it is the middle-finger (madhyamika) of the left hand and not the fore-finger which is touched by the thumb and fore-finger of the right hand.) B ( b ) 182.—Image (ht. 3' 2" up to top of back-slab ; width at base .1' 7|") of Gautama Buddha seated cross-legged in the attitude of expounding the law (dharmachakramudra ), on the flat top of the base which projects 5 1/4 " from the back-slab. The position of the hands is the same as in the preceding image. In the centre of the base was the wheel-and-dcer symbol which, is nearly effaced, but is enough to show that the scene represented, is the first sermon at Sarnath. B (b) 183.—Image (ht. 2' 31/2"; width 1' 31/2") of Gautama Buddha seated in the attitude of expounding the law. Upper portion of back-slab with the head of Buddha missing. Behind each shoulder, a crocodile (makara) head, as in B (b) 181. On front of the base is a relief consisting of a wheel supported on an expanded lotus with a couchant deer on either side, exterior to which sit the five monks, the first converts of Buddha, namely, two to the proper right and three to the left. This group indicates that the sculpture refers to Buddha’s first sermon in the Deer-park of Benares, the modern Sarnath. ... The style is of the Gupta period and the material Chunar sandstone which was coloured red. B (b) 184.—Figure (ht. up to top of back-slab 3' 5" ; width 1' 9") in alto-relievo of Gautama Buddha seated in European fashion in the attitude of expounding the law (The lower portion below the waist is damaged by saltpetre and both hands and right leg are lost. ... Style decadent Gupta. Chunar sandstone of reddish tint.

• Please tell me how you will be disamiguating the cross-legged from the European position? Why waste the time of careful people with nonstop nonsense? I don't mean you Jb. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:32, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The first question is whether there is a WP:COMMONNAME. Sarnath Buddha, which is already a redirect, seems to be used often for this work. It seems not to be the only statue of the Buddha from Sarnath, but if it turns out that's the WP:COMMONNAME that wouldn't matter. If the case for that title is not strong enough (I don't know), per MOS:ART/TITLE we should use "the English title used by the owning museum" as Johnbod has said. Buddha Preaching his First Sermon suggests an event no more and no less than Sermon on Mani's Teaching of Salvation, Christ Blessing the Children, Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols and so on – all of which are titles of artworks. The use of title case as well as the already mentioned italics and present participle help make this clear. I don't think the current disambiguator is necessary, though. Ham II (talk) 16:13, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  Sarnath Buddha is one name that has been used, but when I looked for it in academic sources there were quite a large number of different 'Sarnath Buddha' sculptures. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:26, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  Both are cockamamie names. The content needs to be AfD'd Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:42, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  How many Sarnath Buddhas are there? Care to tell me? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:34, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

British Museum's one, with the "European posture"

• See Indian sculpture - at this time there was a whole industry at Varanasi/Sarnath of Buddhist sculpture, with many illustrating this moment. As the museum catalogue demonstrates, though most of the pieces it records are very incomplete, many just bases. I've added the BM's version, which illustrates the "European posture". But if Category:Buddha statues is well-maintained (a big if), this is the only Buddha statue in the distinctive Sarnath stone that has a WP article, although several are famous among specialists. Johnbod (talk) 22:41, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Well perhaps we need a re-scoped article on Sarnath Buddhist sculptures in general. There is more literature supporting the whole than the sum of the parts. Or even just the period of Indian sculpture, because even this seems insufficiently elaborated. Perhaps this rather granular article is a bit of a chicken before its egg. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Actually Gupta_art#Sarnath_school has much more detail. I should have linked to that. It & its references could be mined for here. Johnbod (talk) 13:58, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, per discussion and article, the present page name for this famous sculpture describes it well. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

• When I created the article, I had searched the literature extensively using a few different keywords. The statue is a famous masterpiece of Indian and Buddhist art. People should be able to find the article easily. It is often called the "Sarnath Buddha". However, to be exact Sarnath is a major Buddhist site and many Buddha images were found there. "Dharamchakra Pravartan" is a widely used term by the Buddhists. I doubt anyone will search for "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon" looking for information on this masterpiece.Malaiya (talk) 19:16, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

• I can go with Upinder Singh's "Buddha in the dharmachakra pravartana mudra, Sarnath". Malaiya (talk) 19:34, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

@Malaiya: Thank you for creating this article! Upinder Singh indeed uses the expression "Buddha in the dharmachakra pravartana mudra, Sarnath" in Singh, Upinder (2008). A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Pearson Education India. p. xiv. ISBN 978-81-317-1677-9., and describes the statue in detail in page 534. But I am afraid this name is rather meaningless for English speakers, and anyway there are thousands of sculptures showing a Buddha in the dharmachakra pravartana mudra posture, so it is not really distinctive either. This is why I tend to support the current designation from the Sarnath Museum "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)", see Sahni, Daya Ram. Catalogue of the Museum of Archaeology at Sarnath. p. Plate X.. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:39, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

But "Buddha preaching the first sermon at Sarnath" can mean 11th century Nalanda, i.e. "Buddha preaching the first sermon at Sarnath (Nalanda)" or "Buddha preaching the first sermon at Sarnath (Met)" depending on what is in the parenthesis. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:14, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

But as pointed out above, none of these have articles. The situation is similar, but even worse, with the standard Christian subjects in art, see the over 400 in Category:Paintings of the Madonna and Child. That is why MOS:ART spends so much time describing how to disambiguate titles. I think "Sarnath" is adequate disambiguation here. Johnbod (talk) 22:25, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

There are no articles on Wikipedia that show any kind of sophistication on the broad themes of sculpture devoted to the Buddha's: birth, enlightenment, sermon, sangha and death. When a depth of understanding is lacking people bicker over titles. Why should there be a page devoted to one Sarnath museum sculpture when the content does not rise to what high-schoolers in India are reading in the texts prescribed by India's National Council of Educational Research and Training. It is pretty shameful. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

True (but those are subjects not "themes", a common rookie error in art history). I wrote Life of Christ in art and Life of the Virgin, and a similar Life of Buddha in art is intended at some point. I'm delighted, if surprised, to hear that Indian high-schoolers are taught this stuff. Still? In general I have been complaining for over a decade about WP's strength in articles on discrete things, mostly micro-topics, and weakness on larger topical articles, like those in, you know, a proper encyclopaedia. But the former are much easier to write. Johnbod (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Everyone is running helter-skelter looking for fancy sources, but can they write at this level? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:53, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I ask myself much more modest questions. Can I paraphrase at this level? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:58, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

If you are so annoyed with the content of this article, why not fix it? Why not re-write it to your standards? Natg 19 (talk) 21:28, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

In other words, others have rights — such as that to make up any which name and fill it with any which garbage, or the right to do solipsistic original research, cutting and pasting little pictures out of and to other little pictures, but I have only responsibilities, including that of cleaning what they have begun but never seem to end.

Has anyone stopped to consider for a minute why the new name, the page move, the reams of discussion above are taking place? It is because I paid some attention to the Gautam Buddha article and cleaned up the first paragraph of the lead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all three names, the previous, the current, and the proposed. Making up a page name without the critical mass of support in the sources is OR. If the name is a must, there is some support in the sources for "Buddha preaching his first sermon (Sarnath Museum)" i.e. for the notion that it is the best known of such Buddha images in the museum. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Not a bad proposal, but we don't have to be this reductive: it is not just a particular sculpture from a particular museum. More accurately, broadly, and relevantly, the sculpture is also one of the primary sculptures from Sarnath, and one of the primary sculptures "in the entire history of Ancient India" (sourced: [3]). "Buddha Preaching his First Sermon (Sarnath)" remains probably the cleanest and the most appropriate in my opinion. The fact that it is located in a specific museum is secondary. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:56, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

As mentioned above, we have hundreds of artwork titles whose disambiguation includes the location, and the normal practice, supported by MOS:ART, is just to give the city, except in the case of cities with several big museums (not the case with Sarnath). This keeps the titles short, among other things, and follows common art historical practice. See for example Category:Paintings in the collection of the Pinacoteca di Brera, where all "location" disambiguators are just "Milan". Or Category:Paintings in the collection of the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Johnbod (talk) 13:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I see at nothing but an excuse to give prominence to a third-rate and dated article Gupta art in this article. Quoting Harle and Mookerji (born 1884) that Sarnath had no foreign influences, seems to be getting in the way of modern opinion that a number of foreign sculptors and craftsmen were in Chunar during that period,and in fact had been much earlier. See Romila Thapar edited book on Reimagining the Asokan ... ca 2011. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:57, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

And we know that the preaching Buddha, in the lotus posture no less, with hands in the teaching posture, with the wheel of Dharma, with gazelles no less below, all those stylistic additions had been around for several centuries earlier, from Taxila onward. Every preaching Buddha statue depicts him preaching in Sarnath (the imagined stomping ground) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.