Talk:Bunji Bridge

Two bridges

After checking the sources, it has become clear to me that there are two bridges being talked about. The Express Tribune article says:

Since Partab Pul had been abandoned, residents of Bunji suffered after the floods washed away the new bridge.

Apparently Partab Pul was not damaged in the floods. It had only been abandoned previously.

I have also added the coordinates for both the bridges to the article. Given that there are two bridges, I am not sure that this article should be titled the "Bunji Bridge". Which of the two is supposed to be the "Bunji Bridge"?

Ping Fayyaz Anwar, Uanfala. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, in that case, merging into Bunji, Pakistan seems like the best thing to do. – Uanfala (talk) 18:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Accuracy

Some historian, whose credentials I did fail to vet, over this news-piece claims that the bridge was built from 1889 to 1894. Kautilya3 has rightfully interpreted it to mean that the bridge was constructed in 1894.

But, over this picture, the plaque over the entrance tower prominently mentions 1893. ∯WBG^converse 13:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

By the way, do you have a hard copy of Dani's book? ∯WBG^converse 13:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

No, and it is bloody expensive too. I have squeezed enough out of Google Books that it refuses to show me anything from it now. But occasionally, some snippets show up in searches.

To add more confusion to the year of opening, the Lalvani lady said 1895.

So, do you reckon that both bridges were repaired in 2012? It shouldn't have been too hard to restore the Partab Pul because the steel is still standing. Replacing the wooden planks shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks. But they seem to have also cleared up the approach roads (comparing the image of the Express Tribune and our upload). -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Interesting folk history on your Twitter thread. The photograph from 1947 looks genuine. (I had wondered how they crossed the Indus because there was no other bridge in the vicinity at that time.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Kautilya3, FWIW, there used to be a ferry service quite nearby (per Dani) but the Chilas Scouts had ransacked and torched it (along with Ramghat bridge), at near-simultaneous time. ∯WBG^converse 15:46, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I have managed to access a hard-copy of the book :-)

I won't take Kartar Lalvani any seriously - is he even a scholar? I checked the book sometime back and it suffers from a near-complete lack of footnotes, with some of the assertions being horribly false. And the primary theme was about how much the British Raj did help India by colonizing it .....

A perennial problem in that region is the sheer scarcity of allotted funds ; so I am not very surprised about the time-span. I reckon that the old Partab Pul was restored in around the beginning of 2012 whilst the newer one was re-constructed in November, 2012. ∯WBG^converse 15:07, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I won't place any bets on Lalvani. Good that you have Dani's book. Next time I need something, I know whom to ask!

But, Dani's book is not the last word though. He didn't have Brown's diary available at the time who he wrote his book. And, honestly, he also seems to be rather enamoured with Mirza Hassan Khan.

Are you sure that the Ramghat Bridge was torched? Brown says that he ordered it to be captured. (p.259) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Per Col. Hasaan, it was torched, which was w/o his knowledge/consent. And, he got hell furious at Brown, for having destroyed all road-routes to Bunji.

He also later mentions of Tiger Force coming to Bunji via Pratap Bridge to recieve air-drops of ration and then crossed Astor river near the old destroyed Ramghat bridge by raft to Astor, Burzil Pass (where they were bombed by IAF) and Minimarg, which were the station HQ. ∯WBG^converse 17:22, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Also Captain Jock Mathieson over Brown's memoir :-

I also have a couple of strong sections under Havildar Faiz Aman of Yasin at the vital Ramghat Bridge which has gone up in flames, and a section at the Raikote Bridge - still intact. ∯WBG^converse 17:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. Even p.259 does say that when Mathieson's troops went there, they found it burnt. So, the State Forces were hemmed in and they were picked out. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• I guess the detailed history of the bridge (destruction, repair and all that) is quite clear, by now. The exact time-frame of opening the bridge stands unresolved though and I will seek to check the primary sources, once I get some time. ∯WBG^converse 15:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  Over a book published 20th September 1893, it is noted (Pg. 124) that the Indus bridge, called after His Highness, the Pratap Bridge, and the Ramghat Bridge have been completed. ∯WBG^converse 13:47, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

  Kapur, M. Lal. (1992). Social and economic history of Jammu and Kashmir State, 1885-1925 A.D. New Delhi: Anmol Publications. Pg. 322. notes A mile-stone in the construction of bridges was, however, the Pratap suspension bridge over the Indus river in the Frontier area. Built of steel wire ropes imported direct from England, with masonry abutements and wooden girders and a span of 329 feet, its construction was completed in 1893. The bridge could stand a strain of 500 lbs. per foot. ∯WBG^converse 13:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Chilas, Darel and Tangir

French Army map of western Gilgit-Baltistan area, 1913

CIA map of Kashmir, 2004

Diamer district, c. 2016, containing truncated Darel and Tangir, and full Chilas

Yes, I am coming around to the view that it was built in 1893. Here are some more subtleties. According the EB 1911, the land opposite Bunji was Chilas, not Gilgit. I would expect the border between Chilas and Gilgit to have been the Jaglot river (or is it the Sai river?) map.

That would explain why the bridge had to be so far away from the Bunji town. The Chilasis were a menace. Chilas was attacked and subdued in a manner of speaking in early 1893. Durand paid for this adventure through his job. He was replaced in May 1893. [1]. I will change the date to 1893. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:39, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Turns out my guesses were wrong. The Gazetteer of Gilgit Agency says (p.11) that Chilas means the basin of the Indus river (which runs east-west in this area), with the northern border roughly where the Astor river joins the Indus. So, Jaglot was and is in Gilgit. Check out this map where I have marked the southern border, as declared by Pakistan.

But, here is something more interesting that I have found. To the west of Chilas are Darel and Tangir, which are generally labelled as "tribal territories". The southern border of these territories was also supposed to be in line with that of Chilas. But, Pakistan apparently appropriated the southern half and merged it into Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. Somebody wrote about this in Dawn in 2016, but the appropriation was done as early as 1950! I have never seen it mentioned anywhere.

The French Army map shown here (use media viewer to zoom in to the top right corner) confirms the story. The Indus River all the way to the place called Jalkot (Djalkot) belongs to Kashmir. But all the maps I have seen have hole there, including the CIA map on the right, and the Indian government maps released yesterday. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:11, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

References