Talk:Burgh

Burghal Hidage / Wessex Burghs

It seems really strange that this article focuses primarily on scotland and the north, when Alfred the Great created a great many of them in Wessex, as recorded in the Burghal Hidage document of 914-17, which recorded 30 in Wessex, two in Mercia and one in Hwicce. It seems slightly odd to have separate articles for Burgh and Burh when they are essentially the same thing (or regional and temporal variants on the same thing), and long pre-date standardised spelling. The form "bur..." crops up in other places in wessex not on the Hideage list e.g. Burford. 87.74.62.242 (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Parliamentary burghs

I read:

A burgh ... was an autonomous unit of local government in Scotland, with rights to representation in the Parliament of Scotland...

I wonder: Is this true of all burghs? And were all burghs counted as parliamentary burghs for representation in the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of the United Kingdom? (I know that those which were counted, except for Edinburgh, were grouped in districts of burghs in 1708.) Laurel Bush 11:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC).

Pronounciation of 'burgh'

Anyone growing up in Scotland will realize the error of this statement, specific to the pronunciation of burgh:

"Pronunciation is the same as for the English word borough, which is a near cognate of the Scots word".

Clearly, this is incorrect. Pronunciation would be more analogous to burra. --Fmckane 20:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

And 'borough' is not pronounced 'burra'? Laurel Bush 09:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC).

I would say it is prounounced more like 'Bruh' or 'Brah'. Just as Bamburgh is not 'Bamburra' but 'Bambruh' or 'Bambrah'. Could be a regional thing though.

ETYMOLOGY

The german verb bergen means to rescue according to "Langenscheidts Großes Schulwörterbuch". According to Cassells "German Dictionary" it means recover. According to both it means to salvage as well.Cakeandicecream 15:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

In Scots, "burgh" (pron. "burra") also refers to a mussel bed. Hence the name Musselburgh refers to a musselbed rather than a town. There is an old saying something like "Musselburgh was a burgh lang before Edinburgh was a burgh, and Musselburgh will be a burgh lang after Edinburgh. [citation?]

The common thread in all of these cultures is that the Goths had had some encounter with all of them. So, I suspect that the cognates stem froma common source, like that of the Goths. The Visigoths referred to the be-walled villages as baurgs. (Wright, Joseph, 1892, A Primer of the Gothic Language, glossary & section 182.) To say Germanic seems anachronistic because the Goths predate the establishment of German. Perhaps the more correct term would be "proto-Germanic"; still in this case I am totally removed from my area of expertise. I suspect to come up with a valid term we should allow for a Germanic linguist to offer the most suitable nomenclature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.236.194 (talk) 17:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Expand

This article actually says very little about what a burgh is and what advantages burgh status conferred on a settlement. This page should be a coherent overview of burghs in general, so that the articles on different types of burghs can meaningfully refer back to it. ::Supergolden:: 10:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree. There should be a fair bit more about what status a burgh had politically and in terms of rights. There should also be more about the whole issue of granting trading rights throughout the kingdom, an essential aspect of a burgh. Many people have little understanding of he highly controlled status of Trade in Scotland historically, and the difficulty coordinating road work and trade. Soemthing could be written about tolbooths aso within the burgh, and the issue of traders vs merchants and burgesses vs other people in the burgh, could be given some attention. Annana 07:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

1. To improve this article, I propose the following:

• Delete the list of "Burgh as a placename element", this is just an open-ended list. Places actiually called "Burgh", can be moved to a Burgh (disambiguation) page.
• Merge in Burgh of barony and Burgh of regality - these don't need to be separate as they are not that long, and this would immediately beef up the article. I'd keep Royal burgh separate though.
• Further to my comments at Talk:List of burghs in Scotland, if the lists of Large burghs and Small burghs are merged into that list, the text from those articles can be added here - there's currently no mention of large burghs here.

Any comments? Jonathan Oldenbuck 15:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

2. US Spelling: Smith & Swetnam in Guidebook to Historic W. Pennsylvania, 1991, U Pittsburgh Press, say the US Bd of Geographic names removed final h from all towns ending in burgh, Dec 24, 1891, and restored it to Pittsburgh July 19, 1911. If true, this is worth noting to explain the spelling difference. Most US towns do omit the h, with exceptions of Pittsburgh, Newburgh, Edinburgh, Plattsburgh. Numbersinstitute (talk) 16:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

This statement is not very informative and very likely contradictory: Pronunciation is the same as the English word borough, which is a near cognate of the Scots word. The identical English word Burgh (in place names such as Bamburgh, Carrawburgh and Dunstanburgh) sounds exactly like the Scots Burgh, with the emphasis on the 'r'.

Some points:

• Burgh is not a near cognate of borough (what does that even mean?), it is a cognate! They both derive from Anglo-Saxon burh.
• With respect to pronunciation, if Scottish burgh == English borough and Scottish burgh == English Burgh, then English borough == English Burgh, which does not accord with my experience.
• Instead of saying the pronunciation "sounds like" some other unclear pronunciation, we could actually describe it, either using IPA or something more generally comprehensible. I'm a Canadian and not acutely aware of British regional speech; my pronunciation of English "borough" alternates between "burrow" and "burra". Scottish "burgh", as in Edinburgh, is AFAIK always pronounced "burra".--Saforrest (talk) 14:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Southern English pronounces "borough" differently if it's part of a word or on its own. It's "burra" on its own but normally just one syllable in place names ("Edin-bra", "Luff-bra"). They have their own local cognate - "bury" - which also goes down to one syllable in eg "Canter-bree". Further north you get more -boroughs and they increasingly get pronounced with two syllables even if the most famous one, Middlesbrough is spelt with only one syllable! You also get a bit more of an "o" on the end of the pronounciation, albeit nothing like the North American "burrow" which sounds very odd to British ears. Scots is different again - it's not so much two syllables, more the Scots rolling their 'r's and ending in more of an "uh" sound.FlagSteward (talk) 19:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Burgh is pronounced Bruh. One syllable. Edinbruh, Bambruh, Dunstanbruh. Just like ingham is pronounced injam and haugh is pronounced hoff and cleugh is pronounced cloff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.221.104.13 (talk) 16:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that the article Royal Burgh be merged into this article. Both articles have information on the history and development of burghs, sometimes contradictory, but the article Burgh is more detailed. The list of Royal Burghs in the other article could be retained, and the name changed to "List of Royal Burghs". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abigailgem (talk • contribs) 14:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose No progress in over a year. Unreal7 (talk) 17:42, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I second the above proposal to merge the article royal \burgh (anent Banff) into this, having been born in BAnff it has been referred to as a royal burgh locally for many years-Whether through the original royal Charter,residences by various kings or as a Sherrifdom I am uncertain, certainly licensed to hold a market in early Mediaeval times Banff had a harbour (Guthrie's Haven), but this was little more than a slightly sheltered rocky bay,with larger ships hauled out of the water on the shifting tidal sand-bars (mostly to the West of the river mouth and sometime known as the stinky LochyThomas Telford was the main improver for the harbour as well as the sucessful bridge at the river mouth. The legend around the execution of freebooter MacPherson seems highly fanciful and while there seems evidence for advancing of the clock hands it would have been impossible at that date to see any messenger crossing the bridge as there as yet was none-and the bridge of Alvah cannot be seen from Low Street in Banff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jumanji99 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree! Merge them! Two short articles, and royal burghs can be a sub category of burghs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.74.74.9 (talk) 01:58, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

A good deal of Scottish placenames bearing -burgh- are of recent coinage

Not sure about the Northern isles, but maybe mention that a lot of the Scottish placenames with "burgh" in them are of quite recent coinage compared to "burgh" placenames in England. The late coinage of a fair few of "burgh" placenames in Scotland also shows that "burgh" is very much alive and in use weighed to how the use of "burgh" has fared in England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.65.142.56 (talk) 22:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Canterbury is in Kent not East Anglia...

"Burgh in placenames is found in its greatest UK concentration in the East Anglia region of southern England, where also the word has taken the form bury, as in Canterbury.[20]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:411:1600:226:8FF:FEDC:FD74 (talk) 23:43, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Toun/Town

Why have the Scots word for Toun but the Northern English as 'town' when the two words are pronounced the same in Northumbrian, Geordie, and Scots... 'toon'... seems unnecessary to mention Toun as though we are talking about something different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.221.104.13 (talk) 16:35, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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Meaning of "corporate"

Could someone please clarify the meaning of the word "corporate" here ("A burgh was an autonomous corporate entity in Scotland and Northern England". I am sure plenty of readers — both English speakers and others — will be confused by the use of the term, as it has come to become almost synonymous with with business. Thanks, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:56, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I believe my edit resolves the issue. Thanks, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:32, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Abolished 1893?

The article says:

In 1893 ... [a]ll burghs of barony and regality that had not adopted a police system were abolished.

The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892 says:

section 4

The following words and expressions in this Act shall have the meanings hereby assigned to them, unless there be something in the subject or context repugnant to such construction ; that is to say. [...] (4.) "Burgh," when used alone, unless otherwise expressed or inconsistent with the context, shall include royal burgh, parliamentary burgh, burgh incorporated by Act of Parliament, burgh of regality, burgh of barony, and any populous place or police burgh administered in whole or in part under any General or Local Police Act, or any burgh created under this Act

section 5(1)

This Act shall apply — (a) From its commencement to every existing burgh, with the exception of the burghs named in Schedule II. of this Act, [..]

Schedule II

Edinburgh. Glasgow. Aberdeen. Dundee. Greenock.

James Campbell Irons comments on section 5(1):

From the commencement of the Act — i.e. 15th May 1893 — all burghs, whether royal or parliamentary or police, or burghs of barony or of regality, save only the five burghs expressly excepted, come under the operation of this Act, without any resolution of the authorities or of the inhabitants.

Section 25 of the 1892 act mandates a first election for commissioners in those burghs which were not police burghs; Section 27 is a saving for patrimonial rights.

jnestorius^(talk) 20:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

"The Burghers of Calais"

Is the hereinabove worthy of a byword in the article by dint of an etymological link, at least? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.183.116 (talk) 05:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Does the Scottish lastname: "Kinniburgh"/"Kinnibrugh" come up as a place name/fieldname?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinniburgh

Anyhow, important to byword that -burgh names no longer standing as placenames nor fieldnames live on in lastnames like the aforesaid name Kinniburgh.

Wrong audio file linked?

My first contribution to Wikipedia. I hope I'm doing this right.

So, "Another variant pronunciation, /brʌf/ (listen)," points to an audio file that has the common pronunciation, not /brʌf/.

Thanks! Rskberlin (talk) 06:40, 14 August 2022 (UTC)