Talk:Célestin Hennion

Royal Victorian Order

The info on the BBC and TNA websites currently states that themedal was given to her father in 1914. The London Gazette however seems to suggest that he was initially appointed Member (4th Class) (now known as a Lieutenant) in 1906, and promoted to Commander in 1908, though in both cases the forename seems to be given as Cebstin, which just doesn't look right as a French name to me, and could easily be a typo for Celestin. Unless another Hennion was involved in the French police at this time, it seems likely that these appointments relate to this Hennion. See "No. 27907". The London Gazette. 24 April 1906. and "No. 28131". The London Gazette. 24 April 1908. David Underdown (talk) 14:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Well there was only one Principal Commissioner to Paris at the time called Hennion, so it must be him. As he was in charge of the security for the head of state of France, he would have taken several trips to the UK by 1906, so it does link together. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully I'll get round to watching the programme tonight and understand what they actually say about it, and see what it looks like, the medlas etc for each level of the order are different, so it should be possible to work out how it ties in. The wording they used is a bit funny as the Royal Victorian Medal is omethign else again, related to the order, but not actually making you part of it. Of course it's possible he was promoted to KCVO in 1914, but I haven't managed to track down a Gazette for that (though these days honorary awards are not gazetted, and I don't know when that actually changed). David Underdown (talk) 16:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Good views of the medal are shown so anyone who knows what they are looking for should be able to recognise something. The BBC iplayer shows it at 31:14 mins and at 34.02 mins (for the next month only). I could just see "Victoria" written on the elaborate medal. Snowman (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Royal Victorian Order only shows insignia from Knights Grand Cross, Knights Commander and Lieutenants (originally Members 4th Class). The one shown on the programme was between that for KCVO and LVO in complexity, so it would fit with being CVO, and in size it certainly looks like a "neck order" (i.e. worn on a ribbon round the neck, rather than on the chest). I note that in the programme they didn't actually say it was presented in 1914, merely that in one photo he was wearing it in 1914, while next to George V. So I htink the gazettes above must be for when he was actually appointed to and promoted in the order. David Underdown (talk) 08:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention to detail. Does it make any difference that it was an Honorary Member and Honorary Commander? Snowman (talk) 09:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Honorary appointments are made when the person isn't a subject of the British monarch (or as it stands these days, not a citizen of any member state of the Commonwelath of Nations). At the levels to which he was appointed it doesn't rellay matter, the recipient may still use the relevant postnominals, gets basically the same insignia (according to the article on Royal Victorian Order, the medal ribbon has a white stripe down the centre for honorary members), once you get up to KCVO or GCVO, recipients don't receive the accolade when invested, and are not entitled to call themselves "Sir". The only other difference I can think of these days, as mentioned above is that honorary appointments aren't now generally gazetted. David Underdown (talk) 09:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Nickname

In the context where the nickname was introduced during the TV programme, there was no mention of there being any sesne of "fairness" being implied. He was simply pretty tall, and had blond hair. David Underdown (talk) 13:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Further to this, there are a couple of French Kings nicknamed "the Fair" Philip IV of France and his son. The original French for this was le bel, and it means fair in the general (and sightly archaic) sense of handsome. I think fairness legally speaking would be juste;; (just, as in justice). David Underdown (talk) 13:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Father of Modern Policing

I can fully understand the claim that Lepine has a very strong claim to being the fore-runner of forensic policing etc, but the reference states that Célestin Hennion is seen as the father of modern policing in France, not one of the pioneers of. By changing the wording, the reference does not link to the statement. Now we could say that "...along with Lepine<referece> Hennion is seen as the father...<reference>. But the fact that Lepine had a longer service as the head of the police force doesn't make him more notable. Much of Hennion's improvements and ideas happened well before he reached the top job, and as a close ally of Georges Clemenceau was able to implement his ideas even in lower positions. FruitMonkey (talk) 17:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I accept what you say - I have my doubts about the reference used which appears to have more to do with a French film about the Brigades than anything else. Lepine was also a close ally of Clemenceau and an ally of Hennion. I will make no further changes but support the entry on Lepine. dorkinglad (talk)