Talk:Catalan Republic

Independence declaration was de iure according to recent Spansih Constitutional court, so at least, we should consider the independence lasted 4 days until repealing of the law by spanish cnstitutional court on 12th september

On page 24 of the recently infamous outcome of the constitutional process against Catalan politics it states: Proven Facts: "1.- As of 8th September 2017, official catalan government's bulletin núm. 7451-A published the Law of Catlan's Parlament 20/2017, of juridic transitoriety and fundational of the Republic. That norm, integrated by 89 articles and three final conclusions, includes unilateral proclamations of rupture with the current constitutional system. It was presented as a superior norm of the catalan juridical order, until when new Republic's constitution was approved. It proclamed thatCatalonia is constituted by a Republic of law, democratic and social, in which sovereignty of the catalan territory was declared as composed by the territorial space, included the undergroung, corresponding to its geographical and adminsitrative preexisting limits, by the territorial see, included its ground and undersea and by the aerial espace placed over territorial espace and territorial seas of Catalonia"

https://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/pdf/7/9/1571135685597.pdf?_ga=2.260757325.175344844.1571268775-1030253749.1552175496  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.61.108.100 (talk) 00:05, 17 October 2019 (UTC) 

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2017 Independence Declaration

I just want to say that if it is possible to add information about the Independence Declaration of Republic of Catalonia on 10 October 2017.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.24.96.246 (talk) 21:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I support the above proposal for an amendment. Given the Catalan parliament has just made the first move pending further action by the Spanish parliament, I suggest that we look into whether this qualifies for a new page for a Catalan Republic in 2017. Epicity95 (talk) 14:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

addition of poorly sourced material

Protected page. Please discuss changes here.Dlohcierekim (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017

Even if it was for just 8 seconds, today, there was again a Catalan Republic. J bullanga (talk) 21:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Please, provide reliable sources that confirm independence was effective for 8 seconds. All of these seem to disagree: CNN, The Guardian, The Independent, BBC, Financial Times, Al Jazeera, Daily Express, Los Angeles Times, MSN, SBS, ABC (Australia), Bloomberg, France24 Impru20 (talk) 21:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Nihlus 21:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

So if something happens but those major sites, who have financial interests and political agendas, do not report on it, it is like it did not happened at all? Bluewave256 (talk) 23:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Technically, independence was declared. He just "temporarily suspended its effects" to facilitate diplomacy. That's not the same as not declaring independence or invalidating it completely. Source: The Guardian BBC and others 201.239.163.7 (talk) 00:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I watched it live in Catalan. Puigdemont declared the republic (and the declaration was later signed), and he then declared that the legal effects of the declaration would be held in suspension for a few weeks. IThe Republc of Catalonia did not disappear after 8 seconds. It is continuing as a republic in suspension. Cospelero (talk) 02:22, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

"Republic in suspension", nice new term you seemingly coined, but not what reliable sources say. Impru20 (talk) 07:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

+1 he clearly declared it and seconds after suspended it and the me and the whole country was following it in the TV in real time so cannot be denied. If this leads to political problems, why not use that whole statement in the description? "Declared and inmediately suspended". If you want you can add "in order to initiate the symbolic secession without legal consequences" (in vain). The court voted, approved and signed the parliament laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_juridical_transition_and_foundation_of_the_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Referendum_on_Self-determination_of_Catalonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.61.108.100 (talk) 22:57, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41574172 I hope this can be considered as a reliable source as major English source since there maybe some rule to not consider the spanish ones according to what I am reading here Catalonia independence declaration SIGNED and suspended "The declaration reads: "We call on all states and international organisations to recognise the Catalan republic as an independent and sovereign state." "As Catalonia's leader announced he would declare independence, thousands of his supporters, watching his speech nearby, on a big screen, were euphoric. But seconds later - when Carles Puigdemont qualified his announcement - and said the declaration would be suspended for several weeks, the disappointment was visible in the crowd." MikeKalash (talk) 08:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC) Here you go - the mentions of the seconds.

NY Times - In Catalonia, a Declaration of Independence From Spain (Sort of) "“I assume the mandate of the people for Catalonia to become an independent state in the shape of a republic,” Mr. Puigdemont said, before adding, SECONDS later, that he and his government would “ask Parliament to suspend the effects of the declaration of independence so that in the coming weeks we can undertake a dialogue.” MikeKalash (talk) 08:46, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Your own BBC source says: However, they say the move [in reference to the independence declaration] will not be implemented for several weeks to allow talks with the government in Madrid.

Your own NYT source says: But by refusing to begin the secession process immediately, he frustrated some of his allies in the independence movement, who felt he had not taken a decisive enough stance Impru20 (talk) 08:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

In the Catalan-language Wikipedia article, it shows that a Catalan Republic has been declared at least six times, including 10 October 2017. Cospelero (talk) 11:06, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

“Catalonian leaders have signed a Declaration of Independence from Spain.” http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-11/catalonia-referendum-what-happens-now/9037256?pfmredir=sm

Cospelero (talk) 11:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/how-long-should-the-mediation-period-suggested-by-puigdemont-take

“Puigdemont suspended an independence declaration...” A thing cannot be suspended if it never took place or had been implemented to begin with. Cospelero (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

"Catalan government spokesman Jordi Turull said the declaration yesterday evening was "a symbolic act in which we all signed our commitment to declare independence," but added that the official declaration "must be made by the Catalan parliament"." (https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1011/911442-catalonia/). IMHO this quote directly from the Catalan government makes it as clear as it's going to get in this situation that independence has not been declared and no republic has been established. Argymeg (talk) 16:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Guys, they just declared it and then suspend it just to be in the ambiguity of not being capable of being punished by the spanish law for a 7 seconds independence. Even the president of spain had to ask formally Catalan president whether he had declared or not independence in order to have clear evidence of a constitutional violation. Turns out spain jury considered it formally declared since all of them got in jail after all. The law cannot punish a joke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.61.108.100 (talk) 22:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Impru20 I did not coin “republic in suspension.” Just because it’s a new term for you doesn’t mean I coined it. I did translate it from Catalan, but so did others apparently, independently from me. Here it is used in the Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/11/catalonia-republic-in-suspension-carles-puigdemont Cospelero (talk) 22:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Another source: translated - Speaker of ERC affirms that Catalan Republic has definitely been declared - "La independencia de Cataluña está clarísimamente declarada" - " but "independence is declared." [3] MikeKalash (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Independence has not been declared even by the standards set by the Catalan government. It does not matter what the speaker of the ERC says - that is his opinion and not a authoritative point of view. It also does not matter that there were 8 second between Puigdemont saying he wanted to declare independence and him saying that independence was suspended, as, again, independence has not been effectively declared according to the standards even of the Catalan government (let alone the Spanish one!) FOARP (talk) 11:26, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

While you all discuss a point that will probably become irrelevant in no time, the current lead is hopelessly needing an update. --Jotamar (talk) 16:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Making this a disambiguation page

The article as it was was disorganised, and didn't relate to any one discrete topic. I have split it off into four separate articles, and made this a disambiguation page. All of the content has been copied to one or more of the four articles, except

1. The infobox: It had stuff in it about all four republics, and I wasn't savvy enough to know how to fill many of the fields in the individual articles. The infobox is here if anyone wants to attempt it.
2. The following, which doesn't belong in any of the four articles:

Junctures of independence or segregation from Spain or France

• 988: The count of Barcelona Borrell II denies the vassalage of the Catalan counties to the French king Hugh Capet.
• 1712: Proposal of creation of a Catalan Republic under the protection of the United Kingdom.
• 1793: During the War of the Pyrenees between Spain and the First French Republic, some French leaders proposed the creation of a Catalan Republic twinned with France, as the other Sister Republics created with the breakthrough of the French revolutionary army.
• 1810–1812: Napoleon I makes Catalonia independent under French control.
• 1812–1814: Catalonia is annexed to France by Napoleon.

References

I don't know what should be done with this. Scolaire (talk) 17:40, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Not a disambiguation page per WP:DABCONGEO; I have made it a set index, since the meanings are not unrelated (every meaning of "Catalan Republic" is some kind of "Republic" that is "Catalan". bd2412 T 03:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks to Jacobí for adding the infobox to three of the four new articles, and other edits. Scolaire (talk) 07:59, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

If a Catalan Republic is declared this year, would a new article be created, following the new approach to the previous entities? Culloty82 (talk) 15:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I would guess that it would, and it would then be added to this list. Scolaire (talk) 15:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome Scolaire. :) Now I'm focused to increase the information of these short-lived republics. About the last item, in my point of view the best we can do is to modify the current page of Catalonia instead to create another page (if this proclamation is successful, of course). --Jacobí (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

The official declaration has now been passed by the Catalan Parliament. Culloty82 (talk) 13:47, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Jacobí Scolaire Culloty82 I think that a new article (in the form of Catalan Republic (2017) or whatever) would be the best course of action here, instead of bringing a potential edit warring over the Catalonia article. That would also allow for a more in-depth description of events, instead of trying to work them into the Catalonia article (which refers mostly to the geographical region, rather than the political entity per se). Also since Article 155 seems about to be enforced and all of this may quickly turn into a 1934-like scenario. Impru20 (talk) 13:52, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree, as we now have a declaration of independene, I suggest the least problematic course of action is to have a new article on Catalan Republic (2017). PatGallacher (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I figured that would happen. I'm neutral on the subject. I'm not interested in Wikipedia articles that properly belong on Wikinews. I got involved in the referendum article for a while but I gave it up. It's a quagmire, and has very little chance of being a proper encyclopaedia article any time in the next few years. If the Republic one is created, it can go in here, and the "See also" can be taken out. That'll be the limit of my involvement. Scolaire (talk) 14:28, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Page move

The page Catalan Republic was moved to Historical Catalan Republics by Cgpharan, a new user with less than 30 edits, without any prior discussion. He then edited Talk:Catalan Republic so that this talk page could not be moved back. Does anybody know what needs to be done to return this page to its correct address? Scolaire (talk) 15:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I've made a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. --Scolaire (talk) 15:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks Jenks24. --Scolaire (talk) 18:59, 27 October 2017 (UTC)