Talk:Catalonia national football team

Catalonia is a regional team

Satesclop, please can you take your anti-Basque and anti-Catalan agenda elsewhere. A regional football team does not have to represent an independent state. There are several cases in Europe alone where autonomous regions have national teams. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Faroe Islands are all recognised by UEFA and FIFA and use the term national team in their articles. Politcal status has nothing to do with it. Even so both the Basque Country and Catalonia have more autonomy then the above. Djln--Djln 16:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

this is not the place to discuss whether Catalonia is a region (as some say) or a part of Spain, however some of the Catalonia regional football team players are:

Sangibarbá and Di Stefano: Argentinians Kubala: Hungarian Neskens and Cruyyf: Dutch Evaristo: Brazilian Sapirissa: Salvadoran

And amongst the "Spaniards" we can find:

Cesar: born in Leon Luis Suarez: born in La Coruna Pereda: born in Burgos Alcántara: born in the Philipines Velasco: born in Murcia Two of the best Catalonian players of all time played alternatively for and against Catalonia (Samitier and Zamora)

If we consider this a national team then we can obviously consider "Zidane and friends" as Marseile National Team. And please don´t waste your time calling me "anti-catalan", please take your victimist agenda somewhereelse —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.103.32.48 (talk) 17:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I absolutely agree,--90.162.108.69 (talk) 04:18, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

From the wikipedia page on catalonia. "The Preamble of the 2006 Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia states that the Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a nation". The zidane and friends arguement is just wrong. Catalonia has it's own football assiociation as well and has autonomy (unlike Marseile). Also because they are not recognized by fifa/uefa elgibilty rules don't apply so they are allowed to have guest players like Cruyff and Di Stefano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.121.101 (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

From The Spanish Constitution that is the fundamental law of the Kingdom of Spain. "The 1978 Constitution recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions in Article 2, linking the beginning with the UNITY of the Spanish nation and solidarity between THE REGIONS that compose it.

rock beats scissors = Spanish laws beats regional laws.

Not a natinoal team. It's a regional team not recognised by UEFA / FIFA as national team despite some of catalan people claim for independence. It's not comparable to Wales, England or Northern Ireland, they are different cases, because they are constituent nations of a state (even more, FIFA stipulated particular laws only for these UK nations). Catalonia is an autonomus region of a state. The problem when translating the word "nation" from spanish to english, is that you use it as "state" meaning, which is not correct. Catalonia is not a state. When we say its a "nation" we refer it to "historial nation" which is recognised by the Spanish Constitution, but it doesn´t work as a state.

When 90.162.108.69 talks about "Zidane friends" (bad example) he points the fact that is has to be comparised in that case with teams like Athens team (which plays representing Greece before the national greek team was formed, or the London XI which represented UK in the very first Olympic Games). The aren't states as we recognised today.

Same apllies to Euskadi. Hope the conflict is understood now.

--Brgesto (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Match stats

I know I saw a match between Catalonia and Andorra in 2003 or 04. Why isn't it included in this list? Moravice 09:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• This is only a selected list of games against well known national teams and/or frequent opponents. For a more complete list see this source. [1]. There is no mention of them playing Andorra in 2003 or 2004 on this list or at the other sources linked to main article. Djln --Djln 21:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleted parragraph

I've deleted the "there are many Spanish teams in Catalonia", since that has nothing to do with the Catalonian team. --85.48.105.52 05:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Kit

I'm not entirely sure how to edit the kit diagram, but here's a photo of the home strip:

http://www.futcat.org/images_noticias/0000000249/38.jpg

--GoHawks4 18:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't get the image to come up, but I know what the uniform looks like. The one shown on the page is blue and needs to be changed to black.

-- GhostXIII —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.118.85.53 (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Catalonia FA.gif

Image:Catalonia FA.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Flags

Codorado (talk · contribs) is putting some flags that (s)he doesen't accepts in other articles. I think it is crucial to write in this article (since it deals with Catalan national football team) to specify which people are Catalan but, if in FC Barcelona the information about the autonomous community is not accepted, I don't see why should we detail here if Iniesta comes from Castille la Mancha or to put the coat of arms (¿?¿?¿?) of Plovdiv.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 01:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Codorado answered me the following:

In a regional football team, is important to know who of those guys are of that region, and the official nacionaties of the players, in that case for the neutral point of view, you must use the regions of the other to aditional information, to know the regional places of the others. In the other case, is an international football team of the spanish league, only the official nacionalities are important, the unofficial nacionalities or the politics-points are not important, if somebody wabt to know the born-place of the players, they have their owns articles.--Codorado (talk) 01:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 01:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

In a national football team it is interesting to know which people comes from that region. All other information is as important or superfluous in one article as in the other.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 01:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, the flags were wrong, the autonomous flag of catalonia was on people like Albert Celades, Joan Josep Nogués, Ricardo Saprissa, Sagibarba... And they are not catalonian in anyway.--Codorado (talk) 01:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Then remove that flags. Not add more flags. Or, if you add more flags I'll have the right to do the same in FC Barcelona.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 01:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Is that a threat? Sorry, the neutral point of wiew is more important, and like i sais, is not the same this (autonomous football team) than the FC Barcelona (a spanish football club). Anyway, this is the perfect NPOW of this article for me, show me your perfect NPOW version, maybe we are not so far.--Codorado (talk) 01:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, finding a NPOV is a threat of both users with different POV to include both POV. Now there is no coherence between both articles. As I already told you, for coherence we have to either delete here "superfluous information" or add in FC Barcelona "interesting information", deppending as how you see this information.

I don't see consistent your argument about autonomous football team and spanish football team. FC Barcelona is a Catalan team (it plays Catalan Cup), it is Spanish team (plays Spanish liga), it is an European team (plays Champions leage). Considering it just as Spanish team is quite biased. Anyway, if we deal with Catalan national team, I just see reasonable to specify which are Catalan and which not. I do not even see interesting to specify if they are Spanish, Bulgarian or German. Paraphrasing your words, if somebody wants to know the nationality of the players, they have their own articles. So, my POV would be just put Catalan flags. Your is putting Spanish one. So, let's put Spanish and Catalan and forget coats of arms...--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 02:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. Done --Codorado (talk) 22:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not "national"

Catalonia is a region of Spain, the only nation is Spain.--88.7.243.55 (talk) 15:51, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

That's debatable, seeing as the autonomous communities define themselves as nations. It's best to think of Spain as akin to the UK, made up of several nations. --MateoJorge

The only nation in Spain is Spain, the other are regions.--88.7.246.177 (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You don't know at all your own Constitution, my dearly Spanish friend. I invite you to read it someday, you'll be able to see there some truths, even if you don't want to know them. --Asfarer (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Hahaha.. "my dearly friend" I invite you to read it someday... in your language:
From The Spanish Constitution that is the fundamental law of the Kingdom of Spain. "The 1978 Constitution recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions in Article 2, linking the beginning with the UNITY of the Spanish nation and solidarity between THE REGIONS that compose it. I repeat: THE REGIONS that compose it rock beats scissors = Spanish laws beats regional laws, of course. An example, my little town can be named as "the largest stellar conjunction nation universal universe of the universe". But my little town is a town of Spain with spanish laws. Do you understand? Sorry for the stellar example hahaha.

Not a natinoal team. It's a regional team not recognised by UEFA / FIFA as national team despite some of catalan people claim for independence. It's not comparable to Wales, England or Northern Ireland, they are different cases, because they are constituent nations of a state (even more, FIFA stipulated particular laws only for these UK nations). Catalonia is an autonomus region of a state. The problem when translating the word "nation" from spanish to english, is that you use it as "state" meaning, which is not correct. Catalonia is not a state. When we say its a "nation" we refer it to "historial nation" which is recognised by the Spanish Constitution, but it doesn´t work as a state.

When 90.162.108.69 talks about "Zidane friends" (bad example) he points the fact that is has to be comparised in that case with teams like Athens team (which plays representing Greece before the national greek team was formed, or the London XI which represented UK in the very first Olympic Games). The aren't states as we recognised today.

Same apllies to Euskadi. Hope the conflict is understood now. --Brgesto (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

All British/UK nations are an example, not just Scotland and Wales

The following statement in the first paragraph is bizarre:

"Catalonia has tried to join UEFA, citing Scotland and Wales as similar national sides with UEFA membership, but has always been rejected. "

Surely all four nations of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) are examples of sub-sovereign state nations competing in football. The author of this sentence is perhaps under the mistaken impression that England and the UK are somehow the same thing, and that Scotland and Wales are part of England in the same way Catalonia is part of Spain?!?! In fact England and all the other UK nations are directly equivalent to the Catalonia national football team, with the exception that that they are officially reconignised (rightly or wrongly) by FIFA and UEFA.

I have therefore changed the sentence to the following:

"Catalonia has tried to join UEFA, citing the constituent nations of the UK (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) as similar national sides with UEFA membership, but has always been rejected."

Where possible could someone correct the alternative language versions of this page if they carry the same mistake/oversight. Brunanburh (talk) 01:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The only Nation is Spain, Catalonia is only a spanish region.--88.7.246.177 (talk) 14:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Catalonia is not a nation, so you can´t have a national team. It´s so easy. There is no legal text in which Catalonia appears as a nation, so this is a regional team. As you should know, Catalonia has never been known as Catalonia national team, but as Catalonia regional team. And please, don´t compare Catalonia or Basque country, which NEVER have been independent, whith other nations with a real national tradition as Scotland. Wikipedia should reflect the reality, and it is not that Catalonia is a national team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.175.159.215 (talk) 13:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Wales has never been an independent nation either, and was legally merged with England until the 20th Century. But never the less it is a nation. Are you sure pro-Spanish bias isn't influencing your arguments a little? 2A04:4A43:8DAF:F405:EC32:2420:1D00:1656 (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Any reasonable definition of "nation" perfectly defines Catalonia. You can of course ignore facts and just abide by the Spanish law (as if it were impartial in this matter). Let's go down this path for a second. The Spanish constitution (is that enough of a legal text for you?) calls Catalonia a "nationality", whatever this means. Hence, the Catalan team can be safely defined as a national team. Spanish nationalists feel this compulsion to deny the Catalan nation in every related article in wikipedia. 85.50.127.75 (talk) 08:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

From The Spanish Constitution that is the fundamental law of the Kingdom of Spain. "The 1978 Constitution recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions in Article 2, linking the beginning with the UNITY of the Spanish nation and solidarity between THE REGIONS that compose it.

I repeat: THE REGIONS that compose it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.162.108.69 (talk) 04:33, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Stop telling lies: Artículo 2

La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas.

Do you recognize the word NATIONALITIES? --Zigurat (talk) 14:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Next match?

Hi, I was just checking the article and then the internet and I can't find a list of next matches (or next match) Catalonia is going to play? Does anyone know the next opponent(s) and/or a website which could tell me this? JaumeBG 07:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Template

The template at the bottom needs tidying up. Nobody, but nobody, believes that the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, etc... are nations. This is not to say Brittany, Catalonia, Basque Country etc. are not nations, but not these tiny little islands.

Language

Does the team exclusively use Catalan in the locker room and on the pitch? Funnyhat (talk) 06:37, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Roster Questions

Just curious, why is Pique not listed on the roster. He is from Barcelona and played for Catalonia against argentina in december of 09. (http://www.goal.com/en/match/43549/catalunya-vs-argentina/lineup-stats). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.121.101 (talk) 01:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

"Catalonia football team" is not an appropriate name

In the English language there is a need to use the word "nation" in that title. For example, if we were talking about the national football side representing the constituent country of England, we would say England national football team, and not "England football team", as it's far too generic. Also, there is a nation called Catalonia within Spain as the top court in the nation ruled a year ago, (Reference) so there is no need to argue about that. -- Marco Guzman, Jr  Chat  23:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Catalonia is NOT a nation. Please see a map. Catalonia is a region of Spain and NEVER could be a "national" football team. Regards --90.162.108.69 (talk) 04:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Articulo 2 (Spanish Constitution): "La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas."

Begin to know your own laws... --Zigurat (talk) 14:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

You can't write "national" with accuracy

People here defends that Catalonia's case is similar to Wales, Scotland and England's cases, but it is not true. Without politics, those football are recognized by FIFA, they are officials and they play official matches. So, they called them Scottish/English/Welsh/North Ireland national football team. Catalonia football team is not a official team and it can't be called national simply because is not official.

With politics, North Ireland, Wales, Scotland (and England) are openly recognized like home nations, but in Spain autonomous communities are not recognized like that thoug nation was written at Estatuto of Catalonia, they really want to say nationality. They are similar, but not the same. Morancio (talk) 17:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

If we consider this a "national" team then we can obviously consider "Zidane and friends" as Marseile National Team, hahahah Please see a map of Europe. Catalonia is a region of Spain like Madrid or Murcia. Please, some should not watch much Jericho (TV series) hahahah --90.162.108.69 (talk) 04:47, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but Catalonia is a nation, and here's a reference-- Marco Guzman, Jr  Talk  23:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll show you the mistake Marco Guzman, Jr: "Catalonia can call ITSELF a 'nation'". And I remit you to the last paragraph: "A small minority in Catalonia, which is home to around seven million of Spain's 48 million population, want to break away from Spain completely and argue that the statute does not go far enough in granting THE REGION independence."

Please, don't try to convince people to see Catalonia as a nation, because it isn´t, and it´s incorrect to call it that way. You can call it if you want, but for the rest of the world is a region of Spain, an autonomous community. Any further. --Brgesto (talk) 15:57, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Please read YOUR OWN CONSTITUTION: Articulo 2 (Spanish Constitution): "La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas."

Begin to know your own laws... --Zigurat (talk) 14:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

CC.AA. Flags for Spanish clubs in Basque and Catalan team rosters

I've made changes to the Catalan/Basque rosters to specify the autonomous community of Spanish clubs whose players are called to the Catalan/Basque teams. Changes are being made to the Catalan team's page to revert back and forth between CC.AA. flags and the Spanish national flag, but the roster on the Basque team's page hasn't been touched at all. If the Catalan/Basque teams are only regional ones according to the RFEF, then having the clubs' autonomous community flags shouldn't be a problem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.172.13 (talk) 21:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

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Editing about "national" team

Conversation moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Discussion about whether Catalonia is a national football team

@Fob.schools, Hunig3, and Fcbjuvenil:, It looks like there is some edit-waring about whether this is a "national" team. Please also see the conversations above about this. Rather than moving the article, especially when there has already been discussion about whether this is a "national" team, there should have been some discussion here first. In addition, I see that infoboxes are getting updated to remove the Catalonia national team info, Hunig3. What's up? Can you sort this out here rather than edit-warring? In addition, an ANI was opened up against Hunig3. Again, this should have been talked about first.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2018 (UTC) My apologies, I am new to editing in Wikipedia and should have spent more time reading and understanding how it works before editing. With regards to the topic, I read the discussion but I do not find any valid reason to have the team referred as ”national team", let alone to include the appearances and goals with this regional representative team on the infobox. The team represents a region of Spain, it is not sanctioned by UEFA/FIFA and it is composed of players from many different nations. Including the appearances and goals record on the infoboxes ONLY responds to individuals pushing a political agenda. It is, by all means, false information misleading to readers. I am not interested in a war of edits, I see that Catalan cyber warriors are working very hard on keeping this delusion going, so if there is no interest in accuracy by other editors, I guess the Catalan super national team made of people from all over the world and playing friendlies will keep counting as "national team" experience for legends such as Iniesta, born in the province of Albacete (Castile-La Mancha region).Hunig3 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC) Please start a discussion thread about regional "official/representative" team in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Matthew hk tc 07:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC) Rather than starting what would be a third thread on this topic (there's also an WP:ANI opened on this here), I posted a message there requesting input here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:42, 8 July 2018 (UTC) I would like to see the evidence that the Catalonia team is "composed of players from many different nations". That may have been true in the past when players would make guest appearances for the team, but these days the Catalonia team only selects players that would be eligible for them under FIFA rules. Sergej Milinkovic-Savic, for example, plays for Serbia now, but he was born in Lleida, so would be eligible to play for Catalonia were they recognised by UEFA/FIFA. – PeeJay 10:03, 8 July 2018 (UTC) I would support the change of name to 'Representative Team' or similar for all teams which are not FIFA sanctioned so do not play official internationals. Regarding the caps from the Infobox, we should at least be putting (unofficial) beside the name due to inconsistencies that result from counting the non-FIFA team but not their opponents. For the example, Ferjani Sassi scored for Tunisia v Basque Country in 2016, but neither that appearance or goal is included in his totals because it wasn't a FIFA friendly, and that is the correct way, otherwise its too complicated to display. On the other hand, some other non-FIFA teams are included in Infoboxes such as the old English League XI and Scottish League XI teams. So I think they could stay as long as its made obvious that it's not full national caps. Crowsus (talk) 10:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I think there was a discussion thread about all regional teams of Spain, especially the "WP:article titles" convention. So, it should start another thread in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. For eligibility it is another story. The coach and/or the regional FA selected players whatever they want, as it is not regulated by UEFA and FIFA eligibility committee, that formerly called Players' Status Committee Matthew_hk tc 11:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I moved the conversation there.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

"Notable players"

Per WP:COATRACK I removed a huge unsourced list of alleged Catalan players, most of whom never played for this team (you know, the topic of the article). Just because some French internationals were born in an area where Catalan is spoken does not make them Catalans, that's up for them to decide themselves. That also goes for Antonello Cuccureddu, who was listed. He was born in Alghero, an Italian city founded by Catalans and it remains spoken by some, but that doesn't make him Catalan unless he considers himself that. That's like saying all people born in New York are Dutch because the Dutch founded it. Though we can go into huge arguments of who is and isn't Catalan if they are born abroad, the main crux is that these players didn't play for this team. 79.74.173.238 (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 19 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus against moving. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 08:36, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

---

Catalonia national football team → ? – This squad is not a national team, the name is based on a mistranslation, a more suitable title should be discussed. The Chumbo One (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Counter-arguments to the usual premises:

1. The Spanish and Catalan names "Selección" and "Selecció" often appear in dictionaries as "national team" because that is by far their most common use ("Selección francesa" for France, "Selección española" for Spain...) but it is not a direct translation of the term. "Selección/selecció" only refers to a hand-picked "selection" of players, it has absolutely no national connotation. As a matter of fact, the term is not only used in the national (Spain, France...) and regional/intra-national (Catalonia, Andalusia, Castilla-La Mancha...) levels, but even in teams representing mere provinces, such as the "Selección Sevillana de Fútbol", the hand-picked squad of players from the province of Seville, and I am sure no one would translate that as the "National Team of Seville" just because it's the first entry in the dictionary or the "name commonly used in English".
2. People have singled out the squads of Catalonia and the Basque Country, but there are 17 other regional teams in Spain with identical status, all 19 of them being federated under the Royal Spanish Football Federation and each representing one of the Autonomous communities of Spain, Spain's administrative subdivisions (think US states or German Bundesländer, highly decentralized, but not national).
3. People have equated the situation and status of Catalonia to that of Palestine, something that only shows either total lack of knowledge of international politics and of the history of Spain, or a significant ideological bias. Or both. Leaving aside any ill-intended attempt of absurdly comparing the status of the citizens of Catalonia with that of the Palestines, to avoid an unnecessarily lengthy rebuttal, I'll just point out that the status of Palestine is a massive ongoing issue at the UN, with 138 UN States (that is, 71% of them) recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state. In the other hand, Catalonia is recognized by none of them, because there is nothing to recognize. It is regarded internationally as what it is: yet another European region with high European living standards and liberties which happens to harbor a significant secessionist movement, not much unlike Bavaria in Germany, Padania in Italy, Flanders in Belgium or Corsica in France, yet no one makes ridiculous analogies between Munich or Ajaccio and Gaza.
4. Along the same lines, people have tried to use Scotland and Gibraltar as an argument, but the status of Scotland and Gibraltar, both political and in international football, is just not comparable to that of Catalonia or any other Spanish region.
5. Unlike with the case of Scotland, the players of the Regional Team of Catalonia also play for the National Team of Spain, as has been the case with Xavi, Iniesta, Sergi Busquets, Victor Valdés, Cesc Fábregas, Capdevila, Jordi Alba, Piqué or even a most vocal independentist as Pep Guardiola himself.
6. Some have brought up the Spanish Constitution. The Constitution does NOT recognize Catalonia as a nation, people get mixed up by the word "nationalities", a highly debated addition that merely recognizes the historical, linguistic and cultural peculiarities of the regions of Spain. It very specifically differentiates between those those nationalities and the Nation (upper case) of Spain. I am baffled that someone would use as an argument an article which literally reads: "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards", ("all Spaniards" including all Catalans) and that comes right after the words "National sovereignty is vested in the Spanish people, from whom emanate the powers of the State" just a couple lines above (again, "the Spanish people" including the Catalan people).
7. With that clarified, the argument is doubly irrelevant taking into account that this squad has nothing to do with a cultural group, is just the squad of an administrative region ("comunidad autónoma"), in which anyone from the region can play independently of their ethnical/cultural background. As a matter of fact is so trivial and relaxed that even players that are not "ethnically Catalan" (so to speak) nor are from the region have played in the Catalan Squad, such as Andrés Iniesta himself. Yes, that same Iniesta from La Mancha who would go on to give the Spanish National Team a World Cup.[[2]]
8. Some might argue that "nation" can sometimes be used in an ethnocentric and not political sense. Even if that is the case, that is not an argument here, because again, this is not the squad of the "Catalan ethnic group" (again, so to speak), but of the administrative sub-region of Catalonia. Any local can play in it independently of their ethnic background.
9. Just to showcase the ideological bias, the article for the equivalent Andalusian squad, which not only has identical regional status as Catalonia within the Spanish Football Federation, but also has identical status constitutionally as Andalusians are one of those "historical nationalities" mentioned above... well it is titled Andalusia autonomous football team (as in, the team of the Autonomous Community of Andalusia). And before someone suggests it, no, the solution is not to add "national" to the Andalusian team title.
10. There exists a literal UEFA Regions Cup in which regional squads of these same regions take part (in this case specifically the amateur squad). The regional team of Catalonia even reached the finals in 2013, losing to the regional team Veneto, Italy. Notice the official UEFA Regions Cup page with the identical name "Selección Catalana de Fútbol", yet another clear and very official evidence that the word "selección" does not necessarily imply "national". There is even an "ESP" tag underneath (from "España", Spain).
11. Some have argued that Catalonia has played against international teams and therefore it's a national team. Nothing further from the truth. Those matches are meaningless friendlies and the other Spanish regional teams play them too. For instance, the regional team of Madrid has played against Andorra, and the regional team of Andalusia against Morocco, Estonia, Chile or even China.
12. Some are insisting that only a name from "reliable" English sources should be used. Sources that I would imagine would be mostly written by random sports reporters in your average sensationalist sports journal, likely with no knowledge of the language, the history, the politics... people who most likely have made the same mistake I am trying to correct, just using the first entry in the dictionary with disregard of the context. And of course we would surely find a thousand English sources about the regional under 16 team of the province of Seville to contrast these points. It's pretty much like using the Wikipedia article as a source to disregard a correction in the Wikipedia article. But still, if you must, here are some sources in English. "Catalonia Regional Team". Catalonia as the "strongest regional team" in Spain (note this one is not a reference to the squad itself). Yahoo Sports: "Catalonia is a regional team that is recognised by neither FIFA nor UEFA". Reuters: "Catalonia is not recognised as a national team by football’s world governing body FIFA or its European equivalent UEFA but the regional team typically play a friendly against an international side.". And finally, an unrelated but insightful American term, "All-regional teams", that are in practice not exactly the same but whose description explains rather well the nature of these Spanish regional teams: "represent the highest level players in their region".

Now, as alternative names, here are a few considerations:

1. Catalan Regional Football Team: this would be the most accurate and clear, but I understand that adding "regional" to the title might cause some avoidable flak. Having asked some fellow Spanish-American linguists, this was their first choice, also backed by the sources above.
2. Catalan Football Team: same as the above without 'regional'. Sounds a bit too ethnocentric in English, but it's close to the official mentions ("Selecció Catalana", or "Catalan Selection"). It also gives no impression of being an "all-regional" squad.
3. Football Squad/Team of Catalonia.: the aforementioned linguists have pointed out to me that having Catalan/Catalonia at the beginning of the name sounds more natural to them.
4. Squad of Football of Catalonia.: same as the above.
5. Catalonia Squad/Team of Football.: this, to me, sounds a bit too much like a regular club name (Catalonia FC).
6. Catalan Squad/Team of Football.: again slightly ethnic-sounding, but not a bad compromise.
7. Catalonia Football Squad: also not a bad compromise.
8. Catalan All-Regional Football Team: perfectly conveys the concept, though it's not so widespread and used in a slightly different context in the US.

Note as well that these changes should be also applied to any related articles, such as the female squads or the entry for Pep Guardiola in which Catalonia is listed as one of his national teams and lifted to be on the same level as the Spain National Team. I would imagine this same issue is present in the articles for the Basque squads.

Finally, I would like to note that, despite most of the points above being factual and sourced, I imagine some ethnic nationalists would not accept them, and it's as well only natural that people from out of Spain might lean towards siding with what they regard as the "underdog". That said, should consensus appear elusive, I would ask people to consider if what should matter in an encyclopedia that wants to be regarded as reputable should be the "I got here first so my word stands" or sticking to the current, factual, contrastable state of things, if an encyclopedia should give more value to "what some people would personally like things to be" over "what currently is, from a material point of view".

Replies

I would support the change of name to 'Xland representative football team' or similar for all teams which are not FIFA sanctioned so do not play official internationals. Some of the suggestions above for Catalonia are nonsensical and it is bizarre that you would even list them. Do you also make a list of items you don't want to buy before you go shopping? Did the linguists you consulted point out that 'Squad of Football of Catalonia' was an invalid word order in the English language? Regarding the caps in the Infobox (this is not really the place for it, but it is obviously related to the name issue and you brought it up), we should at least be putting (unofficial) beside the name due to inconsistencies that result from counting the non-FIFA team but not their opponents. For the example, Ferjani Sassi scored for Tunisia v Basque Country in 2016, but neither that appearance or goal is included in his totals because it wasn't a FIFA friendly, and that is the correct way, otherwise its too complicated to display. On the other hand, some other non-FIFA teams are included in Infoboxes such as the old English League XI and Scottish League XI teams. So I think they should stay as long as its made obvious that it's not full national caps. There is nothing that states it has to be full FIFA teams and fixtures in this field for inclusion. Crowsus (talk) 03:06, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - This reads to me like a convoluted argument to "fix" something that isn't broke. I typed in Google Books "selecció nacional de futbol," the Catalan-language term for "national football team," to check if this was even a term that was used in that language. Plenty of results turned up ([3]). Regardless, and maybe most importantly, per the common name guideline, "Catalonia national football team" and "Catalan national football team" are just fine. That's just the most common name in English, which even the presenter of this move request acknowledges ("because that is by far their most common use"). Sorry if this offends patriotic feelings.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 03:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  ---

  "This reads to me like a convoluted argument to "fix" something that isn't broke."

  - No, this is an argument for an Encyclopedia to fix something that is factually not the reality.

  "I typed in Google Books "selecció nacional de futbol," the Catalan-language term for "national football team,"

  - A clear example that these discussions are settled from ideology and not material reality. Obviously you are going to find results, there are plenty of independentists in Catalonia that would like that to be the case (including some players of the team itself), but that does not make it a reality. The official website of the team does not include a single reference to "national" and merely speaks of "Selecció Catalana". Would anyone here seriously consider an argument to modify the Gibraltar article the fact that searching "Gibraltar is Spanish" or "Gibraltar español" in Google Books throws thousands of results? Does some Spanish people wanting Gibraltar to be Spanish and writting about it make Gibraltar Spanish? I don't think so. Again, this relates to my last paragraph. This is an encyclopedia, it should register what materially is, not what some people would ideally like things to be, independently of how legitimate we might personally find their claims. The reality, as of today, is that the "Selecció catalana" is in no way a national team, not officially, not administratively, not politically, not even "ethnically". A section could be added to the article recording the ideological stance of sectors of the society and some of the players who would like it to be a national team, but that does not change the current nature of this particular team, which is the same as that of any other regional team of the Royal Spanish Football Federation . I would also point out that "Catalan independentists" is not a synonym of "Catalan people", there are many other Catalans who do not sympathise with this ideas and that are for some reason completely disregarded. The Chumbo One (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  Also, "selecció NACIONAL de fútbol" is nothing but the generic term for "national team" in Catalan, that does not mean every time the words "selecció nacional de futbol" are spoken in Catalan they refer to the Catalan regional squad. As a matter of fact, the very first result displayed refers to the national team of Brazil, not Catalonia ("selecció nacional de futbol, la màxima i incondicional passió de tots els brasilers", "the national team, the greatest and unconditional passion of all Brazilians", followed immediately by the "seleccions de Brasil i Uruguai"), and in the first page of results you also find references to other national teams, such as Spain "s'aconseguia fidelitat a la nació espanyola a través d'estimular l'adhesió a coses tan simples com una selecció nacional de futbol" ("fidelity to the Spanish Nation was achieved by stimulating adhesion to things as simple as a national football team", or "la selecció nacional de fútbol, que es plocamaria campeona de l'Eurocopa davant l'Unio Soviética" ("the national team, which would win the Eurocup against the Soviet Union", something that can only be a reference to West Germany, the Netherlands... and Francoist Spain), among others. Also, not sure if this is a matter of regional results, but I have only gotten 7 pages of results and only the first page (10 results, with one being actually Spanish) are in Catalan, the other 6 pages are articles in English that do not highlight the sentence in the quote, and there are even results in Brazilian Portuguese. Finally... note that what makes "national" the translation of "Seleccio nacional de fútbol"... is precisely the specific inclusion of the word "national" ("nacional") in it, not the use of the word "Selecció" (hand-picked squad), an argument against those who are claiming that "selecció" translates to "national team", again, factually incorrect. The Chumbo One (talk) 15:47, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 06:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
• Firstly, nominator needs to read WP:TLDR. Secondly, I agree that this is not a national team in the same way as 'Spain national football team' etc. However, we probably need a centralised RFC with how to deal with all the Category:National and official selection-teams not affiliated to FIFA articles, as there seems to be a mix of 'X national football team' and 'X official football team', as well as the off 'X autonomous football team'. This needs to be made consistent. For that reason I oppose any movement of this article until such time as we have wider consensus. GiantSnowman 06:22, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  The articles could still be corrected in the meantime. This debate started in 2012... it's taken 10 years for someone to request a formal move... should we keep factually incorrect information in the encyclopedia for 10 more years until someone decides to undertake the time consuming and likely complicated task of re-structuring the entire formatting system? The Chumbo One (talk) 14:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  Please stop sending lengthy replies to everybody who opposes this ill-thought out move. GiantSnowman 07:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - The correct translation of Selecció de futbol de Catalunya is Catalonia national football team just like the correct translation for Selección Española de Fútbol is Spain national football team. The literal translation from Spanish/Catalan in these cases is not the same as the correct translation because the language has developed differently from English. That being said, I agree with GS. We have been inconsistent with naming non-FIFA affiliate teams so there should be a centralised discussion. I feel we'll probably still end up with inconsistencies though as countries like Tuvalu have a national team that isn't affiliated with FIFA. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 09:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  That is, again, factually incorrect. "Selecció" literally translates to "selection", meaning a hand-picked team representing anything, be it, and allow me to quote myself "a country, a continent, a region, a province, a league... it has absolutely NOTHING to do with "national". There are, for instance, "Selections" of provinces ("Selecció sevillana"), of other non-national regions ("Selección de Castilla-La Mancha") or even professional leagues ("Selección de La Liga"). The context should be considered when choosing the correct translation instead just going with the first entry in the dictionary just because it´s common. I insist, the "Selección Sevillana" is NOT the "Seville National Team". The Chumbo One (talk) 13:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

--- Reply to user Crowsus

"it is bizarre that you would even list them. Do you also make a list of items you don't want to buy before you go shopping?"

- I could have included my personal choice in the request instead of giving options, since this is about consensus, I anticipated some of the most obvious replies and gave my considerations about why I think they are better or worse suited as an alternative. I thought this was about debating and trying to find a consensus.

"I would support the change of name to 'Xland representative football team'"

- Well, one of the counterarguments you guys gave me (nº12) was that the name should come from a "reputable English source".

"Did the linguists you consulted point out that 'Squad of Football of Catalonia' was an invalid word order in the English language?"

- Please, refrain from twisting my words, I mentioned nothing about "invalid word order in the English language". I said they found the name of Catalan/Catalonia ahead to be more natural based on what they hear the most in the USA, e.g.: "Spain National Team", hence "Catalonia Regional Team". The name used in their very official website is "Selecció Catalana", with "catalana" being an adjective describing "selecció", so, considering that the order of adjectives is inverted in English, the literal (not necessarily the most suitable) translation would be something in the lines of "Catalan squad".

"we should at least be putting (unofficial) beside the name due to inconsistencies that result from counting the non-FIFA team but not their opponents"

- The main issue here is not that the team is unofficial because FIFA does not recognizes it, but that the team is not national because a) Catalonia is not a nation and b) if you want to understand "nation" in an ethnic sense, it does not apply here because this particular team does not represent the Catalan ethnic nation but the administrative region of Catalonia. The team is actually official, it's an official regional team under the football federation of Spain.

" Tunisia v Basque Country in 2016, but neither that appearance or goal is included in his totals because it wasn't a FIFA friendly, and that is the correct way"

- I don't know how these goals should be tallied, but I want to insist that these matches are little more than kickabouts often played years apart and in weird crossover fixtures against all sorts of teams, such as Region of Andalusia vs a Israel+Palestine combined team or Region of Andalusia vs Combined Team of the rest of La Liga. These are not much unlike those "Friends of Zidane vs Friends of Ronaldo" matches, or those homage games in which a player plays one half with each of his former teams (like Deco playing with both Barcelona and Porto in the same match). Essentially random, highly irregular entertainment events more than anything else. Just so you get an idea, the Catalan Regional Squad has played a total of 3 games since 2015... The Chumbo One (talk) 13:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose move. If anything, the discussion should be about non-FIFA teams as a whole, not a specific politically charged region. Focusing on Catalonia alone makes this unlikely to succeed. O.N.R. ^(talk) 15:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  Yet another example of ideology being put ahead of factual information and sources. The article is not about a "politically charged region", but about a very specific team of football part of a very real regional Federation of football, literally listed along the other 18 "territorial federations" under the wider Royal Federation of Football of Spain. Also, I am not "focusing on Catalonia alone", I have very specifically mentioned that this should be applied to other regional Spanish teams such as that of the Basque Country, the female teams and any other regional squad that includes the word "national", as ALL regional football federations in Spain share an identical status, yet you don't see the word "national" in the title of the articles for the squads ("selecciones") of the equivalent regional federations, such as the Madrid autonomous football team, the Andalusia autonomous football team or Asturias autonomous football team, a glaring inconsistency precisely indicating that the people who put ideology over reality were precisely the ones who very selectively included the word "national" in the original articles to begin with. I insist, these very specific teams represent the their respective Territorial Football Federations delimited by administrative subdivisions, not "ethnical nations", in this case the Federation of Football of Catalonia, not the "Catalan nation", and that is not changed by the fact that some Catalans legitimately would prefer it to be a national team, same as the fact that just like in Catalonia, there are nationalists in Andalusia who would like Andalusia to be independent from Spain and have a national team, but their personal political views do not change the CURRENT nature of the territorial teams of the Royal Spanish Football Federation. The Chumbo One (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Comment It might be a good idea to add the Basque Country national football team to this RM. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

  As has been stated above, all the teams under Category:National and official selection-teams not affiliated to FIFA should be added, since the premise is that only FIFA teams should use the 'national' adjective and all others should use something else. Crowsus (talk) 10:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose nominator is confusing nations with sovereign countries. A nation does not need to be a sovereign state. If you look at the statistics provided by China, it lists ethnic groups as nationalities. There's these things called First Nations in Canada, which are not sovereign states. In Canada, Quebec's provincial stuff is called "national" by the provincial government. The Nation of Islam is not a sovereign nation. -- 65.92.247.17 (talk) 03:49, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose move. As stated by other users, the term "selecció de futbol" is translated as "national football team", both in Catalan and Spanish. That is why es:Selección de fútbol de España is translated here as Spain national football team, and ca:Selecció de futbol de Catalunya is translated here as Catalonia national football team. Which is the same translation offered by relevant sources, like BBC ("Catalonia's national team") or Sport English version (one of the most important sports newspapers in Spain). This treatment is evident when we look at the times Spain's national football team has played against Catalonia's national football team in history, first time in 1924. When we look at newspapers articles from such matches, we see that both teams get same denomination, as seen on this one from 1947: The Catalan "selección" wins the Spanish one 3-1. The game was of good level and the Catalans showed greater homogeneity. There is no discrimination or difference on the denominations of both teams, without added adjectives like "regional" or "statal". And this is all more evident in the present, when looking at those sports competitions where Catalonia's national team is allowed to compete officially with the rest of the countries of the world. That is the case for instance of the Futsal World Championships, where Catalonia's national futsal has played against lots of other national teams (including Spain) and even won it on 2008.

Most of nominator's argumentation is his politically/ideologically-motivated personal point of view, which is therefore unrelated to this article. Such as his opinions on ethnicity or his comparison with Palestine's UN status (?). There are also several ambiguous or false claims, like his insistence on picturing Catalonia as a mere "administrative region", while failing to acknowledge the fact that Spanish law specifically defines Catalonia as a nationality (not as a region) and recognizes the National Day of Catalonia or the National anthem of Catalonia (Spanish law: Ley 1/1993, de 25 de febrero, del himno nacional de Cataluña). Spanish law is very precise on distinguishing between the regions, which have been recently created and lack former historical background (like the Community of Madrid or La Rioja), and the nationalities, which are the historical nations that existed since centuries before Spain (like Kingdom of Castile, Principality of Catalonia or Kingdom of Aragon). In conclusion: being the case that Catalonia has different national symbols recognized by Spanish law (with the word "national"), I fail to understand why it seems so unacceptable for the nominator to have the word "national" applied to Catalonia. --Beethoven (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't see any problems with the terminology used, but I understand that it causes issues in the internal relations of the Spanish members. "Catalonia autonomous community football team" might be the alternative, as for other teams like the Basque Country, Andalusia, Galicia, etc. Svartner (talk) 05:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Afghanistan national football team which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:19, 23 September 2023 (UTC)