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Talk:Chengguan (agency)

Latest comment: 1 year ago by Rotideypoc41352 in topic Requested move 9 October 2023
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Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Chengguan has become a popular English word, google result: Results 1 - 10 of about 205,000 for Chengguan. (0.22 seconds) , City Urban Administrative and Law Enforcement Bureau should be redirected back to Chengguan. Arilang talk 06:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Reply

Officialdom

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Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

If I'm not mistaken, chengguan personnel are not actual police, with no authority to use violence. They're essentially low-level government employees that aren't properly limited by law.

And wasn't there a city somewhere that hired nobody but young pretty girls, hoping to improve the profession's image and hopefully promote nonviolence? If anyone can find the link it'd be nice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimo1989 (talk • contribs) 04:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)Reply

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Requested move 9 October 2023

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Latest comment: 1 year ago15 comments6 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Chengguan (agency) as the WP:COMMONNAME per #Source review and Google search terms. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 21:53, 27 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Urban management and law enforcement → Chengguan (Chinese urban management and law enforcement) – Per WP:NCGAL: When writing articles on government bodies or offices with native titles not in English, an English translation should be favored, except when reliable sources in the English language commonly use the native title. Reliable sources in the English community frequently refer to Chengguan as Chengguan, per the sources currently cited in the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Oppose the proposed move from "Urban management and law enforcement" to "Chengguan (Chinese urban management and law enforcement)" for the following reasons, per WP:NC, WP:CRITERIA, WP:PRECISION, WP:CONCISE, WP:CONSISTENT, and more.
  1. Recognizability and Naturalness: The title "Urban management and law enforcement" is naturally recognizable to a general audience, especially for those familiar with the subject area. Introducing the term "Chengguan" in the title could be confusing to readers unfamiliar with Chinese terminology.
  2. Consistency with Official Naming: All emblems used by such bureaus in China have the inscription "城市管理执法 Urban management and law enforcement". This suggests that the term "Urban management and law enforcement" is the official and widely recognized name, making it more consistent and appropriate for the title.
  3. Comparative Examples: Using the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department as a precedent, while the local name "Keishichō" is commonly used in Japan and even in the official Internet domain, Wikipedia uses the English translation for clarity and recognizability among English-speaking readers.
  4. Concision and Precision: The term "Chengguan" has multiple meanings in the Chinese language, including being used as personal names or townships' names. By using "Chengguan" with a parenthetical description, the title becomes less concise and potentially more ambiguous. "Urban management and law enforcement" offers a precise description without unnecessary length.
  5. Potential for Confusion: While "Chengguan" might be a colloquially recognized term within China, it's important to consider the wider global audience of Wikipedia. For non-Chinese readers, the term could be a source of confusion, especially when the English description is readily available and widely used.
  6. Consistency with Wikipedia Policy: Wikipedia's naming convention emphasizes the use of official names in article titles. The official name, as evidenced by emblems in China, is "城市管理执法 Urban management and law enforcement". Furthermore, Wikipedia aims for consistency in titles. By changing this title based on colloquial naming, it could set a precedent for other pages to be named using colloquial terms, which could lead to inconsistency and confusion.
In conclusion, while "Chengguan" might be a term recognized in certain contexts, the title "Urban management and law enforcement" offers clarity, concision, and consistency with Wikipedia's naming policies. It is in the best interest of readers and the general audience to retain the current title. Cfls (talk) 17:34, 9 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Cfls Thank you for this thorough response. If it isn't renamed to Chengguan, at the very least there needs to be a disambiguator at the end because the current title in sentence case implies something much broader than the standard name for Chinese local para-police forces. On that note, since this appears to be a standardized department name, shouldn't it be in title case, akin to National Guard in the U.S.? voorts (talk/contributions) 17:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
@voorts, I appreciate your engagement on this topic. Here are some clarifications and counterpoints:
  1. Scope of the Term: While I understand your concern regarding the broader implication of the term "Urban management and law enforcement," it's essential to note that the article's content provides specificity to the Chinese context. This, combined with the lead paragraph and the article's content, should guide readers to understand the unique Chinese context, thereby eliminating potential confusion.
  2. Title Case Consideration: I agree with your observation regarding title case for standardized department names. However, "Urban management and law enforcement" is more of a descriptor of the practice and not strictly a proper noun like "National Guard." While "National Guard" is a specific title used across various countries (hence the need for disambiguation like "National Guard (United States)"), "Urban management and law enforcement" is a descriptive term unique to the Chinese context, and its sentence case reflects its descriptive nature.
  3. Comparative Examples: Using the "Signing statement" example, while the term may seem generic, its specific context in the United States makes it unique. Wikipedia retains its title without additional disambiguation, demonstrating that context and content can provide clarity even when the title seems generic.
  4. Future-proofing: If, in the future, other countries adopt a similar practice with a name resembling "Urban management and law enforcement," we can consider introducing disambiguation. Until such a scenario arises, preemptive disambiguation might be unnecessary and potentially confusing.
  5. Clarity and Redundancy: Adding "Chengguan" or any other disambiguator might introduce redundancy given that "Chengguan" translates closely to "Urban management." The current title is already specific and self-contained, offering clarity without the need for further disambiguation.
In conclusion, while your points are valid, the current title, "Urban management and law enforcement," serves the dual purpose of being both descriptive and specific to the Chinese context. It captures the essence of the practice without introducing ambiguity or redundancy. Let's prioritize clarity and user understanding while keeping the title concise and to the point. Cfls (talk) 19:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Move to Chengguan (agency). The current title suggests a far more generic article and the proposed title is unnecessarily complex. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
    @Necrothesp, I appreciate your input on this matter. Let's consider the following points:
    1. Specificity of the Term: While "Urban management and law enforcement" might seem generic at a first glance, the article's content and the lead paragraph clarify its unique significance to the Chinese context. By reading even the first few lines, readers will quickly discern that this isn't a broad, generalized topic, but rather a specific administrative practice in China.
    2. Understanding 'Chengguan': The term "Chengguan" might be familiar to those who understand Chinese or are already aware of the context, but it could introduce ambiguity for a wider global audience. "Chengguan" translates closely to "Urban management," so adding it as a prefix might be redundant.
    3. Comparison to Similar Terms: Take the example of "Signing statement" mentioned earlier. While it may seem generic, its specific context in the United States makes it unique. Wikipedia retains its title without additional disambiguation, demonstrating that context and content provide clarity even when the title might seem broad.
    4. Simplicity and Clarity: Your suggestion, "Chengguan (agency)," is indeed simpler than the previously proposed "Chengguan (Chinese urban management and law enforcement)." However, it still introduces the term "Chengguan" which might be unfamiliar to many readers. The existing title, while slightly broader, is self-explanatory and offers immediate clarity.
    5. Future Adaptability: If other countries adopt similar practices with names resembling "Urban management and law enforcement," we can certainly consider introducing disambiguation. Until then, we should prioritize immediate clarity and global comprehensibility.
    In conclusion, while "Chengguan (agency)" is concise, the current title "Urban management and law enforcement" achieves a balance between clarity, specificity, and global accessibility. It ensures that a diverse range of readers, regardless of their prior knowledge of Chinese administrative practices, can understand the topic at hand. Cfls (talk) 14:30, 10 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose per arguments by Cfls. My take is that using pinyin as article titles may introduce ambiguity. Without looking into the content, one might expect (in a contrived manner maybe) that this article may be an urban management policy named after Chengguan District, Lanzhou if renamed as suggested. If the concern is that one may mistaken this article as a worldwide article, I suggest that a generalised article to be created instead and then move this article either with DAB (China) or NATDAB (... in China). (A similar situation happened before with Total defence, Total Defence, and Total Defence (Singapore) which the last article occupied the primary topic until in 2021 where there was an effort to write a generalised article to cover the concept). – robertsky (talk) 16:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
    Thank you robertsky. To be honest, as a bilingual native speaker in English and Chinese, I experienced an "Aha moment" when I finally connected the urban management meaning with the romanized term "Chengguan" upon reading. Cfls (talk) 02:56, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Move. I mean holy hell, the current title is a terrible balance between CONCISE and PRECISE (unless the balance is "actively avoiding both of those"), even if policy outright prohibited us from using transcriptions over translations I'd argue for a IAR move to literally anywhere else. Maybe "urban management police". But the "offical name" thing is flat out not true "by policy", and while convention for English language governmental offices is a strong presumption in favour of the official name, that presumption is weaker for non-English native titles, something much closer to the standard UCRN. I find the suggestion that the article is scoped to the administrative practice unconvincing considering the overall content, which is exclusively focused on the agency or bureau. If it were the proposed scope though, then the argument of "offical name" holds even less water, because it's the offical name of the agency — there is little to no evidence to suggest that there even is an offical name for the practice, much less that it's urban management "and" law enforcement. Should this article be so rescoped, and Chenguan is rejected as the title, then "urban management police" or "municipal police in China" would still be much better titles. The comparison with Tokyo police is unfounded, as Keishicho is rarely used in English language sources, by multiple orders of magnitude, whereas the reverse is true for Chenguan, which has a clear majority. I don't have a strong opinion on what the best disambugator should be, but the current title is in my opinion unacceptable. Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
    To be honest, as a bilingual native speaker in English and Chinese with global residence experience and fluency in multiple languages, I experienced an "Aha moment" when I finally connected the urban management meaning with the romanized term "Chengguan" upon reading. The pinyin name makes all people, regardless their knowledge in the Chinese language confuse. Cfls (talk) 02:56, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
    That sounds like a job for the shortdesc or lead. The latter of which would contain both regardless, per MOS:LEADALT. Which you, or whatever entity wrote "Specificity of the Term" implied would be necessary to discern for the current title anyway. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Source review and Google search terms

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@Necrothesp and Cfls: I thought a source review of English-language, secondary RSes cited in the article might be helpful:

  • BBC News 2008: "Members of the Chinese municipal inspectors, known as the Chengguan, intervened."
  • Human Rights Watch 2012: Titled "'Beat Him, Take Everything Away': Abuses by China's Chengguan Para-Police". A search of the PDF finds the phrase "Urban management" 19 times and "Chengguan" 678 times.
  • SCMP 2014: Titled "Chengguan officials seriously injured after assault by large crowd".
  • Liberty Crier 2014: The first sentence states "At least 4 Chengguan, the most hated police-inspectors in China, were beaten to death by angry people in Cangnan County of Wenzhou City, Zhejiang Province (located in the industrial southeast), after they killed a man with a hammer." The article does not contain the phrase "urban management".
  • Time 2009: Contains the phrase "city management" 4 times vs. "chengguan" 14 times.

Additionally, Google search trends show no searches for "Urban management and law enforcement", but consistent searches for "Chengguan". voorts (talk/contributions) 22:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

@voorts, I appreciate your thorough research and attention to the sources. While I respect the data you've presented, I'd like to counter with the following:
  1. Contextual Interpretation: While "Chengguan" may appear more frequently in the articles, it's essential to distinguish between the frequency of a term's appearance and its contextual significance. While "Chengguan" may appear more frequently in the articles you've cited, it's often directly associated with specific incidents or situations described in those pieces. For example, in news reports or human rights articles that detail particular events involving the Chengguan, it's natural for the term to be recurrent as it directly relates to the matter at hand. On the other hand, "Urban management and law enforcement" is a broader, descriptive term that encapsulates the Chinese local governments' administrative practice and framework under which Chengguan operates. Such a term wouldn't necessarily be repeated as frequently in articles centered on specific events, but it provides a comprehensive understanding of the institutional backdrop. In essence, while "Chengguan" is the term spotlighted when discussing particular incidents, "Urban management and law enforcement" offers a holistic view of the administrative practice.
  2. Search Trends: Google search trends show what terms people are searching for, but not necessarily what terms they understand or find informative. "Chengguan" might be a term people search out of curiosity after coming across it in an article, but "Urban management and law enforcement" provides immediate clarity without further search. The absence of searches for "Urban management and law enforcement" could be interpreted as evidence of its self-explanatory nature, as you've mentioned. When terms are clear and descriptive, users might not feel the need to search for them. In contrast, "Chengguan" might see more searches precisely because of its unfamiliarity to a global audience.
  3. Article Clarity: Wikipedia aims to provide clear and accessible information to a global audience. While specific terms like "Chengguan" might be prevalent in sources covering specific incidents, Wikipedia's broader audience benefits from more descriptive and self-explanatory titles. The article, as it stands, introduces and clarifies the term "Chengguan" in its opening lines. This ensures that readers who come across the term in various contexts have a comprehensive resource to understand it.
  4. Bilingual Perspective: As a bilingual native speaker in English and Chinese with global residence experience and fluency in multiple languages, I observed the terms like "Chengguan" context-dependent. Even for someone like me, who is deeply familiar with the language, I experienced an "Aha moment" when I finally connected the urban management meaning with the romanized term "Chengguan" upon reading. This personal experience underscores the importance of clear and descriptive terminology, especially in platforms catering to a global audience.
  5. Consistency with Wikipedia Policy: Wikipedia's naming convention emphasizes the use of terms that are clear, natural, and recognizable. While "Chengguan" might be recognizable to some, "Urban management and law enforcement" is arguably more natural and clear to a broader audience.
  6. Article Title: Just because a term is more frequently used in specific articles doesn't make it a more appropriate title. For example, "CIA" might appear more frequently than "Central Intelligence Agency" in many articles, but both terms have their place depending on the context. The "CIA" versus "Central Intelligence Agency" comparison serves as an illustrative example to differentiate between the frequency of term usage and the appropriateness of a term as a title or descriptor. In specific contexts, especially where brevity is essential, "CIA" is the preferred term. For example, in headlines or within an article where the term has already been introduced. However, in contexts where clarity and descriptiveness are vital, especially for readers who may not be familiar with the abbreviation, "Central Intelligence Agency" is more appropriate. Wikipedia serves as an encyclopedia, a primary source of information for many, especially on topics they might not be familiar with. Therefore, while "CIA" might be a term many recognize, using "Central Intelligence Agency" in the title or at the introduction provides immediate clarity. It ensures that even readers unfamiliar with U.S. intelligence agencies understand the topic.
  7. Proactive Adjustments: Again, as global practices evolve, if other nations implement systems similar to "Urban management and law enforcement," we can revisit and introduce appropriate disambiguation after discussion. For the present, our focus should be on ensuring clarity and making the term easily understandable for a global audience.
  8. Understand the Chinese language: I believe it is necessary to further clarify the complexities tied to the term "Chengguan" in the Chinese language. The Chinese language is tonal, meaning that the same combination of letters can have different meanings based on their tonal pronunciation. This is a unique aspect of Chinese compared to non-tonal languages like English. When we consider the term "Chengguan" and its annotated pronunciation as "chénɡ ɡuǎn", it can refer to urban management. However, with the exact same pronunciation, it can also mean "承管", a verb meaning to "take full charge and bear full responsibility," as you can check in the Oxford Chinese Dictionary. To add to the complexity, a slight change in the tonal notation to "chénɡ ɡuān" transforms the meaning to "城关", denoting the area just outside a city gate. Given these nuances, the term "Chengguan" has the potential to be ambiguous, especially for those unfamiliar with the intricacies of Chinese tonal variations. While context can often clarify the intended meaning, it's essential to consider that without adequate context, such a term can lead to confusion. Wikipedia's primary goal is to provide clear, accessible, and informative content to a diverse, global audience. By using a descriptive term like "Urban management and law enforcement", we eliminate potential ambiguities tied to tonal variations and provide immediate clarity to readers, regardless of their familiarity with the Chinese language.
In conclusion, while "Chengguan" is indeed a term used in various reliable sources, the title "Urban management and law enforcement" strikes a balance between local and global accessibility, clarity, and specificity. It ensures that readers, regardless of their prior knowledge of the term, can quickly grasp the article's context and content. Cfls (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
Cfls, serious question, did you use ChatGPT or another LLM to write or modify your statements? Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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