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editOK. Regardless of who gets credit for the invention of a sausage in a crusty roll of bread or what regional name you want to give it in order to create an air or originality, there is no need for this particular version of a sausage sandwich to have its own page. There is already a Wikipedia page for "sausage sandwich" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_sandwich) which describes sausage sandwiches as prepared and enjoyed in different countries, and the choripán article should clearly be merged with that one. It's not an isolated, unique phenomenon but a variant of one that is much more common.173.69.164.126 (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
While argentinians claim the invention of this simple grilled chorizo french bread sandwich[1], this is an ancestral meal eaten by the Roman empire for over 2000 years.[2][3]
The conquerors, introduced bread and chorizo into the Americas from the iberian peninsula[4], in where its consumption is supposed to be a millenarian tradition[5] in all ways you could imagine.[6] [7][8][9][10][11][12][13] In Spain, there is a different recipe for making chorizos in every province, and only in one village, they gave 12.000 chorizo sandwiches away in the chorizo festivity.[14] The merits of the claim are based around the argentinian neologism[15] used in the acronym choripan and in claiming that chorizos are made in a different way (beef+pork) even though they are still called chorizos and they make them in different ways (pork)[16] too.[17][18] In Spain, , this sandwich is called bocadillo/bocata de chorizo asado.[19][20][21][22] On the other hand, theres also argentinian chorizos made like the spanish fresh chorizos for grilling 100 per cent made with pork[23], just like in Spain.[24] Furthermore, they even claim that real choripanes are made with 100% pork chorizos.[25] One of the references in the article supposed to be valuable claims that an argentinian invention is succeding in Israel, but its also been said that the chorizo used in there is not the same used in Argentina[26] due to the restriction of the arabs for the pork. In Argentina, before 1940, it wasnt called choripan.[27]
Being all said so controversial, this article needs to be revised by neutral users. Rafax (talk) 00:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- You do not use references correctly. For example, you say: "this [the simple grilled chorizo french bread sandwich] is an ancestral meal eaten by the Roman empire for over 2000 years", but in here never says that the Roman Empire ate chorizo sandwiches, and in this source neither... You say: "In Argentina, before 1940, it wasnt called choripan", but, this source is not a Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, and gramaticalemnte is badly written. You say, "Being all said so controversial", but, in the real world, where is the controversy? In the real world, the reliable sources say: "Argentine invention is raging in Tel Aviv"; "The origin of choripan is the Rio de la Plata"; "traditional argentinian choripan"; "the choripán is the faithful representative of the fast food Argentina"; "The choripan is Buenos Aires", etc. etc. etc... Ferbr1 (talk) 12:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- You didn't invent french bread and didnt invent chorizo either, where is the invention then. The Roman empire were lovers of chorizo and bread, they used to grill them and eat them with bread in grills they had on the streets and in taverns. In Spain, where choripán is called bocadillo/bocata de chorizo asado, is a meal we have been eating for over centuries in our grills or barbecues. References claiming that french bread and chorizo is an argentinian invention coming from argentinian sources should never be taken seriously. Here is one of the few places that are having good fun about this Argentinian invention in the XIX century. Rafax (talk) Sounds as if England claimed the invention of beer just because they brew it differently than in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. 12:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, but I have reliable sources, and sources say what they say. Your opinion are not over the sources. This afirmation: "References claiming that french bread and chorizo is an argentinian invention should never be taken seriously", is a fallacy called Reductio ad Hitlerum, and this afirmation: "The Roman empire were lovers of chorizo and bread, they used to grill them and eat them with bread in grills they had on the streets and in taverns", is a fallacy called Anecdotal evidence
- What do you call reliable sources?, pages from argentina claiming the invention of a grilled chorizo into a french bread in the XIX century? Are you aware of what you are saying?, this is a serious encyclopedia. Do you think that Spaniards can claim the invention of beer just because we use the localism garimba instead of beer to refer to an ancient brewage just like you are using the localism and argentinism choripan to refer to a bocadillo/bocata de chorizo asado eaten in Spain since no trace in time. Rafax (talk) 14:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Additionally, I hereby inform you that this webpage is a blog, and here, in Wikipedia, you do not use blogs... Ferbr1 (talk) 13:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Additionally, I inform you, that you asked where the controversy in real world was and due to the impossibility to take you to where they'd love to inform you that this is by far the last thing invented in argentina, i had to provide you with one of the many links in where they are having a really good laugh about it. Rafax (talk) 14:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe you could use tipical instead of invented. Rafax (talk) 15:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Mainstream news sources, especially those at the high-quality end of the market, are considered to be generally reliable". Then, [1], [2][3] and [4] are ok. My reliable sources say, expressly and literally, that the choripán was invented in Argentina. Have you reliable sources that contradict them expressly and literally? Or you will be still you doing original investigation from the sources? Ferbr1 (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes indeed, choripán is a simple chorizo sandwich.[37] Choripán, bocadillo de chorizo criollo in french bread[38] Buenos Aires, choripán a sanwich of chorizo.[39] DRAE-Choripán-idiom-arg, Cuba, El Salv., Par. y Ur. - chorizo sandwich.[40] If all reliable sources claim it is a bocadillo/sandwich/bocata/emparedado of chorizo and choripán is idiom for bocadillo de chorizo i dont see where the invention is, perhaps you mean tipical. Even the article is explaining in its context that it is a sandwich made with french bread. If you describe beer with another name, dont mean you have invented beer. Rafax (talk) 19:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
And so what? Your sources report where was invented the choripán? Mine, yes... Ferbr1 (talk) 20:08, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is not argentina's wikipedia, choripán is an argentinsm and idiom for what in spain is known as bocadillo de chorizo or bocadillo de chorizo asado. It has to be understood worldwide, as its known in different countries, not only the name you use in argentina. Beer, birra, garimba = Cerveza. Rafax (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
And so what? The sources say, literally: "the choripan was invented in Argentina". In Wikipedia is very important to respect what the sources say. Did not you know it?Ferbr1 (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Of course, but you seem to forget that wikipedia is not a dictionary and that it is a universal project, not argentinian, so i don't come here to learn idioms neither any one does. Thats why i have provided enough reliable sources for what we call a grilled chorizo sandwich. A product that in the americas originates from the iberian peninsula. Rafax (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- I want to learn about a grilled chorizo sandwich, to learn how they call it in america i have the real academy dictionary, DRAE-Choripán-idiom-arg, Cuba, El Salv., Par. y Ur. - chorizo sandwich.[41] Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Rafax (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
And so what? My reliable sources say, literally: "the choripán was invented in Argentina". Have you a reliable source that says: "the choripán was invented in Spain", "the choripán was invented in Roman Empire" or "The choripán was not invented in Argentina"? Yes or not? Ferbr1 (talk) 13:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is not a dictionary, neither argentina's wikipedia, we dont need you to teach us what you call a chorizo sandwich. Rafax (talk) 15:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how words, idioms, phrases etc., should be used. We aren't teaching people how to talk like a hacker or a Cockney chimney-sweep; we're writing an encyclopedia. Articles whose titles are different words for the same thing should be merged. Rafax (talk) 15:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Your sources, please? Ferbr1 (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ferbr is right; the sources appear to explicitly state that this was invented in Argentina. Certainly it doesn't seem likely (based on my relatively extensive knowledge of EU history) that this originated in the Roman Empire ;). You need to source all those claims (at which point we can happily and easily include them). Stop throwing "Not a Dictionary" out - that does not apply here. Find the sources and we can happily move forward with this --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 10:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
If you take a look a other sources provided, they only invented a new word for an existing productpublicación por parte de la Academia Argentina de Letras (institución que, dicho sea de paso, muchos argentinos desconocen) en el año 2003 del Diccionario del Habla de los Argentinos que incluye 6500 acepciones utilizadas en este país para contribuir al registro de un habla que sigue incorporando palabras a su corpus sin culpa, ya que sus hablantes se sienten libres de restricciones. Palabras y expresiones como choripan (por sándwich de chorizo)[42]called bocadillo de chorizo asado.[43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51] Rafax (talk) 10:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
And so what? In your source you do not say: "the choripán is invented in Spain", "the choripán is invented in Roman Empire" o "the choripán is not invented in Argentina". You are sabotaging this discussion in the same way as you sabotaged this discussion (see). Ferbr1 (talk) 10:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I mean that they should not skip references like they did at es:wiki. All the information that can be properly referenced, the way its been suggested, should be presented to make an encyclopedic article, you have presented your references for the invention and so have i for the neologism. Now i think i must give up before i get banned from this wiki as well. Rafax (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Ferbr1 (talk) 13:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Rafax; I have checked your sources. None mention the Choripán or it's invention. Several mention sausage sandwiches - but are not in the slightest bit specific about what they are or what they contain. A couple mentione Chorizo sandwiches; the unfortunate problem is that none talk about their origins or history - to include any statement about them would be, sadly, bordering on WP:OR. Even then it is unclear if they relate to the Choripán. Most of the sources, unfortunately, fail WP:RS. Sorry --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 14:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- thank you for your mediation, but you dont mention anything about the argentinian graduate that claims that choripán is a neologism for chorizo sandwich that has been included in the dictionary of the argentinian talk. Theres a good article about it here and its a reliable source. Anyway, i give up because i probably will endup getting banned again. Thank you for wasting your time in this discussion. Rafax (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
References
edit- ^ http://www.minutouno.com.ar/minutouno/nota/120378-Los-mejores-choripanes-porte%C3%B1os/
- ^ http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2003/10/01/hoy/revista/1274560.html
- ^ http://www.scribd.com/doc/26651970/Galan-Eslava-Juan-Tumbaollas-Y-Hambrientos
- ^ "Breve historia de la alimentación en Argentina". Liliana Agrasar (in Spanish). Retrieved 8 of July of 2010.
{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|accessdate=(help) - ^ http://www.participaenandalucia.net/benalua/historia?completo=1
- ^ http://www.conocermoralzarzal.com/tradicio.htm
- ^ http://soria-goig.com/Etnologia/calendario/agosto.htm
- ^ http://www.dimedondeir.com/2009/11/05/el-magosto-fiesta-tipica-de-la-castana-en-galicia/
- ^ http://www.esp.andalucia.com/provincia/huelva/el-condado/trigueros.htm
- ^ http://www.revistaiberica.com/turismo/fiestas_enero.htm
- ^ http://www.lacomarcadepuertollano.com/diario/noticia.php?dia=2010_01_23¬icia=2010_01_23_No_02.xml
- ^ http://www.larioja.com/v/20100328/rioja-comarcas/calagurris-arte-magia-20100328.html
- ^ http://servicios.elcorreo.com/gastronomia/articulos/250605_bocata.html
- ^ http://revista.libertaddigital.com/la-fiesta-del-chorizo-1276229219.html
- ^ http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/2816/1/El-papel-del-traductor-en-una-sociedad-digl%C3%B3sica
- ^ http://www.pasqualinonet.com.ar/las_parrillas.htm
- ^ http://www.callegranvia.com/comida/tipica/argentina/chorizo-casero-criollo-argentino/
- ^ http://www.tipete.com/userpost/cocina-y-recetas/chorip%C3%A1n
- ^ http://sapiens.ya.com/radionavarrete/fiestas06/fiestas06.htm
- ^ http://www.riojarestaurant.com/lunch.html
- ^ http://www.larioja.com/20070531/region/unicef-marcha-unicef-recaudara_200705311314.html
- ^ http://www.hoy.es/v/20100216/prov-caceres/degustacion-chorizos-asados-ponche-20100216.html
- ^ http://www.sitiosargentina.com.ar/notas/2010/enero/receta-chorizo-puro-cerdo.htm
- ^ http://books.google.es/books?id=_l57qLQXnMcC&pg=PT43&lpg=PT43&dq=chorizo+fresco+espa%C3%B1ol&source=bl&ots=1GWpc-hg1-&sig=Zgvp2w1AhGCIXN4bTGuUBeCDOyM&hl=es&ei=p2Y6TPCgAoaiOKyr8YkK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=chorizo%20fresco%20espa%C3%B1ol&f=false
- ^ http://www.asi-sea.com/group/groupcarmenyolanda/forum/topics/con-ustedesel-choripan
- ^ http://www.gastronomiconet.com/index.php/modulo-2-noticia-1-/modulo-2/19-el-choripan-conquista-israel
- ^ http://saberesysabores.com.ar/inventos.htm
- ^ http://pruebas.mcclic.com/fiestas.html
- ^ http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/191728/0/vecinos/reunen/hoguera/
- ^ http://www.rondasomontano.com/revista/12358
- ^ http://sapiens.ya.com/radionavarrete/fiestas06/fiestas06.htm
- ^ http://www.riojarestaurant.com/lunch.html
- ^ http://www.larioja.com/20070531/region/unicef-marcha-unicef-recaudara_200705311314.html
- ^ http://www.hoy.es/v/20100216/prov-caceres/degustacion-chorizos-asados-ponche-20100216.html
- ^ http://www.larioja.com/prensa/20070531/rioja_logrono/domingo-todos-grajera_20070531.html
- ^ http://www.bikezona.com/aventuras/pedrodelgado.asp
- ^ http://www.minutouno.com.ar/minutouno/nota/120378-Los-mejores-choripanes-porte%C3%B1os/
- ^ http://exteriores.libertaddigital.com/macri-es-un-peronista-mas-1276236258.html
- ^ http://www.hoy.com.do/vivir/2004/10/7/25604/print
- ^ http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/
- ^ http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/
- ^ http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/2816/1/El-papel-del-traductor-en-una-sociedad-digl%C3%B3sica
- ^ http://pruebas.mcclic.com/fiestas.html
- ^ http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/191728/0/vecinos/reunen/hoguera/
- ^ http://www.rondasomontano.com/revista/12358
- ^ http://sapiens.ya.com/radionavarrete/fiestas06/fiestas06.htm
- ^ http://www.riojarestaurant.com/lunch.html
- ^ http://www.larioja.com/20070531/region/unicef-marcha-unicef-recaudara_200705311314.html
- ^ http://www.hoy.es/v/20100216/prov-caceres/degustacion-chorizos-asados-ponche-20100216.html
- ^ http://www.larioja.com/prensa/20070531/rioja_logrono/domingo-todos-grajera_20070531.html
- ^ http://www.bikezona.com/aventuras/pedrodelgado.asp
I removed the listing for this article from 3O because there are now more than two editors involved in the discussion. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution if further assistance is needed. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
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