Talk:Club de Cuervos

Requested move 1 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that "Club de Cuervos" is the common name in English sources. Cúchullain ^t/c 16:39, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

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Club of Crows → Club de Cuervos – A user inappropriately moved this page from the original "Club de Cuervos" and it cannot be automatically moved back because a redirect was created on that page to this page. Per WP:COMMONNAME this page should remain on "Club de Cuervos". All the English-language sources on the page continue to use the original Spanish-language title, not the rebranded English-language title. While the article should note the English-language title, the Spanish title is the appropriate name for this article. Titles of cited English-language sources from the page include:

• "Netflix Comedy ‘Club de Cuervos’ Starts Shooting in Mexico" (Variety)
• "Netflix Renews First Spanish-Language Original 'Club de Cuervos' (Exclusive)" (Hollywood Reporter)
• "Will 'Club De Cuervos' Return For Season 3? Netflix's First Spanish-Language Series Won't Be Its Last" (Bustle)
• "Club De Cuervos Is Netflix’s Freshest New Series of the Year" (The Huffington Post)

Recent edits changing in-line title use will be reverted back to "Club de Cuervos" once page is moved back. Shelbystripes (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Old sources. The show was renamed by Netflix, and it's a Netflix show.[1] They're not going to revert to the Spanish name, so this will be the common name from here to eternity. — Film Fan 19:47, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Can you please explain what you mean by the show was "renamed"? The show is marketed under an English-langauge name and a Spanish-langauge name, and has been mentioned under both names for some time now. Notice in that article how the Spanish-language title is given first; it's the more commonly used title for the show and therefore appropriate under WP:COMMONNAME. I can't even find reliable sources that talk about the show under its English-langauge name by itself. Shelbystripes (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Also, because this was a controversial edit, it should have been discussed on the Talk page first before a move was made. This change should be reverted until either (1) a consensus is reached to change the name to "Club of Crows" or (2) more reliable sources actually start using this title to describe the show. Shelbystripes (talk) 23:22, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
    • The show has only recently been renamed. Some sources, like the one above, already quoted the English title because it is the literal translation, but it only recently became the official title. But now that it is, this will be the common title from here on out, like it or lump it. So, while old sources will use the Spanish title, all current and future sources will call it by its official title, Club of Crows. There's no point reverting this to the Spanish title, because it would only result in it being moved back in a short while when you realise that, oh, yes, every source is calling it Club of Crows, because the sources get their information from the distributors, and the distributor is Netflix. You follow? — Film Fan 23:30, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
      • This is a Talk page and open for discussion. Your tone is becoming inappropriate, and I ask that you stop trying to berate me into agreeing with you. Can you find a single reliable source that talks about the show being officially renamed? Because I can't, and that would be helpful and actually provide support for your position. Attempting to lecture me further will not. Shelbystripes (talk) 23:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
        • I'm not lecturing. Simply trying to communicate that Netflix has recently decided to label the show Club of Crows.[2][3][4][5][6] And since they distribute the show worldwide (of which only the English-speaking world matters here), they are the authority on what the title is. Unfortunately they didn't provide a press release on the matter--it was a silent operation. I'll alter the lead slightly. — Film Fan 00:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support One, the title is in Spanish in the series logo. It is a series produced in Spanish, as this source says. Both in Spanish and English it is known by its Spanish name. The link provided by the user Film Fan, I redirect to Netflix in Spanish. It would be illogical to modify the name because in the united states the logo has been changed, if that is why we do not change the title to its translation in Portuguese ?.--Philip J Fry :  Talk  23:29, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
  • It's because the Wikipedia naming convention is to use the title in the English-speaking world (US, UK, etc.), which for this show, is now Club of Crows. — Film Fan 23:32, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
    • It is a Mexican series, so it is necessary to respect its title in Spanish.--Philip J Fry :  Talk  23:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
      • Especially when the English-language reliable sources favor using the Spanish-language title, as is the case here. Shelbystripes (talk) 00:04, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
      • No, we use the title used in the English-speaking world first, and mention the original title second. Please get familiar with the guidelines before voting. — Film Fan 00:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
        • If most reliable English language sources use the Spanish language name i can see a case for that name being used per WP:COMMONNAME so I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you suggest.--67.68.21.146 (talk) 00:53, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
          • You're right - it's not cut and dried. It's a grey area. But they're old sources. The distributor re-labeled. — Film Fan 11:14, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UE. Academicoffee71 (talk) 02:43, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't understand how this violates WP:UE, and if anything UE supports using the Spanish-language title. That policy doesn't say "always use the English-language name" at all, and in fact it says "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage." English-language usage (in the article's reliable sources, and any other sources I could find while searching) is consistently to use the Spanish-language title first or exclusively when referring to the show. I would appreciate more clarity from you on why you think WP:UE means using the rarely-used English-language title. Shelbystripes (talk) 03:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

But it's not a "rarely-used" title - it's a new title. — Film Fan 11:11, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support. There appears to be something of a conflict between WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME in this case. If the show had had an English title from the start, I don't think we'd be having this discussion. As it is, the show has only been known under its Spanish title until last week's third season launch, which silently introduced an alternative title in English. From the common name page, this stands out:

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article.

The official English title could well become the most frequently used, but it isn't yet. Thus I believe the rename is premature and should he reverted, for now. Laanders (talk) 17:49, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• I hear your argument, but it would only result in more move requests in the coming months, and an inevitable move back to the English title. Got to bring out WP:IGNORE here. — Film Fan 01:01, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

That is not how Wikipedia works. We don't allow disruptive behaviour. Any disruptive moves against consensus will be reverted. ::::::AusLondonder (talk) 08:25, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Ohh my bad. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know Wikipedia worked that way. I've only been here 8 years, see. — Film Fan 14:12, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. English-language sources continue to use Club de Cuervos. Unfortunately Wikipedia is being abused by editors who are not here to contribute positively and are instead engaging in pov-pushing to whitewash all non-English names from the project. WP:UE is clear - and it supports a move back to Club de Cuervos. It states "The choice between anglicised and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicised titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English language reliable sources". The cynical misuse of WP:UE by nationalist edit-warriors must stop. AusLondonder (talk) 08:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Get off your high horse. That's a ****ing ridiculous conclusion to come to. You've clearly not followed the above conversation. Virtue signaller. — Film Fan 10:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

@Film Fan: It would be good to stop with your comments, and you gave your opinion, I think it only remains to wait for the Wikipedia community to decide.--Philip J Fry :  Talk  14:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Or not. But thanks so much for your opinion. — Film Fan 14:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I, for one, am quite happy for you to continue bludgeoning this discussion with your petty personal attacks and pov-pushing. The only result is your side of the argument is discredited. AusLondonder (talk) 16:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Personal attacks? Look in the mirror mate. — Film Fan 17:32, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, anglicized names fit better in English text, and are more aesthetically appealing to English speakers. That said, personal attacks, which come from both sides of the English name debate, don't help to improve Wikipedia at all. Academicoffee71 (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.