Talk:Contemporary Western

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Western subgenres which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

A lot of films are missing

The list starts with 1969, with a handful odf earlier films being mentioned in the text. However, even [Category:Neo-Western films] mentions Roy Rogers films and there are many, many more from before 1960s. Is there some "rule" that I am missing, which is responsible for this? StjepanHR (talk) 08:57, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The list is intentionally not exhaustive, and is typically films that are not only representative of the genre, but also well sourced (ideally academic texts that note the work as a contemporary Western or neo-Western). ButlerBlog (talk) 12:08, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I see, but the list as it is now is representative only of a small part of the genre, namely post-classical Hollywood. There were hundreds of examples made beofre Midnight Cowboy that are omittted. I don't plan to add every single Roy Rogers picture, but at least 20-30 pre-1969 titles should be added to achieve the balance. Not to mention that good part of the list is entirely unsourced. StjepanHR (talk) 12:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest only adding what is specifically notable. Not every example is notable. The list in this article was merged from a separate list article that was more inclusive. The consensus was that it was somewhat subjective, and that it was not necessary to maintain a "complete" list. Ideally, the list concept would be replaced by prose that chooses some specific examples of the genre and discusses why they are representative. Lists are usually subjective, and end up just being a "catch-all" providing less value. ButlerBlog (talk) 03:45, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to reply on this one. I agree with You. That is why I added only a handful of Roy Rogers films (there are dozens of them that would fit this article; I would maybe add only Man from Cheyenne, as it is a very early example, made in 1941 and set in that year). There are still a lot of examples to be added, made in a different style (Lonely Are the Brave and the likes of it). I actually think that a list in a separate article would be useful, with a note on the type of the film (contemporary/modern-day western, neo-western post-western, etc.), but I really don't have the time or the will to do it, since most of the post-1960s contemporary westerns (apart from Dirty Harry) are not at all interesting to me. StjepanHR (talk) 11:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Time frame for "contemporary" western

Aside from missing some of the most popular and important contemporary westerns, such as those starring Roy Rogers, there is another huge issue not adressed in the article - time frame. English is (as obvious :) ) not my native language, but the definition of the word "contemporary" is "belonging to or occurring in the present". A lot of so-called contemporary westerns are set several decades in the past. Indeed, a 1920s western set in the 1890s is more "contemporary" than a 2020 film set in 1980s and films such as 1903 The Great Train Robbery are pretty much "contemporary". But even if we accept that "contemporary" means "anytime after the so-called Old West", there is still an issue of which years constitutes "Old West". Wikipedia article Old West lists two possible end dates, more precise 1912 and more general "early 1900s". Is there any consensus on that issue? StjepanHR (talk) 01:45, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

There are sourced definitions already within the article that would provide an answer to that. Most film critics and academic sources would not label anything a contemporary Western that was earlier than the post war era. I've never seen anyone put The Great Train Robbery into the contemporary Western genre. There are other elements that are critical beyond the time period. Contemporary Westerns are not simply set in the present (or after the Old West). They have specific themes and character archetypes. ButlerBlog (talk) 03:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I think You are confusing terms "contemporary western" and "neo-western" a bit (no offense, as I think the article was originally written as a neo-western aticle). While every neo-western is also a contemporary western, not every contemporary western is neo-western, just like every giallo is a murder mystery and not every murder-mystery is a giallo. The article seems to use the two terms somewhat interchangably, but it would be the same as using "serial killer film" and "slasher film" interchangably, while we both know it is not the truth. For example, pretty much all pre-Midnight Cowboy films listed here ARE contemporary westerns, and described as such by reliable sources. Excluding them would require idiosyncratic definition of "contemporary western". However, I have one more issue with this article. There are some sources that are used wrongly. For example: "The contemporary Western "partly involves attempting to combine or reconcile the conventions of an older popular form with those of contemporary cinema."" This sentence comes from page 127 of "Critical Perspectives on the Western: From A Fistful of Dollars to Django Unchained". However, it doesn't refer to contemporary westerns as "westerns SET in the modern world", but as "westerns MADE in the modern world". Just a few pages later, the authors refer to Appaloosa (film) as an example of contemporary western, making it clear that he does not refer to contemporary westerns as it is the topic of this article. I don't have time today to check other sources, but will do it in the future since it seems that there were some oversights in the inital writing (or the editors didn't have whole books in front of them, but just the previews from Amazon or Google Books).

I think You are confusing terms "contemporary western" and "neo-western" a bit - no offense, but no, I'm not. I have a pretty solid handle on it. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:57, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I apologize. The state of the article got me a bit off. It uses the two terms interchangeably, so I got a bit carried away. I am a HUGE classical western (before mid-1960s) fan and I was a bit dissappointed that the article was refering only to 1969 and later (and, in my humble opinion, inferior, but it is a matter of taste) films. I will try my best to include some older films that are referred to as in the relevant books. StjepanHR (talk) 21:57, 12 August 2023 (UTC)