Talk:Contemporary folk music

Name

Would "Contemporary folk music" not be a better name for this new article? Hohenloh ⁺ 09:58, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes! "Contemporary folk" is too ambiguous. Another better title would be "Folk Music of the 20th century". DougHill (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Done. DougHill (talk) 04:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I fixed it to Wikipedia title case which required another move. North8000 (talk) 00:37, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Fixed the article title by moving it to Contemporary folk music. A review of other genres such as Alternative rock, Hard rock, and Heavy metal music show that because it is not a proper phrase, only the first word is capitalized. Mburrell (talk) 21:31, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I had a memory lapse on that. North8000 (talk) 21:47, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Global Tag

While any article could use improvement in any area, I see nothing particularly problematic here to merit that global tag. It is written in sourced summary form. I plan on doing some improvements and am not concerned about the tag enough to immediately remove it, but plan to eventually take it off in a couple months. If there is any specific problem text that anyone sees, please fix it or specifically note it.North8000 (talk) 00:43, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Possible merge or reorganization?

I posted this at the American folk music revival article: "With one major absence, I've been the most active editor at the Folk Music article. I took the approach of not dealing with possible overlaps, and built it in two halves...traditional folk music and contemporary folk music which was essentially the topic of this article. (BTW I already know that some of the main editors of this article such as User talk:Sensei48 are superior to myself on this topic.) During my absence what I had already arranged as two halves was split into two articles. Now, one of them Contemporary folk music is a 90% overlap with this article. Should we consider a merge or re-organization?" Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:09, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

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Si Kahn?

A recent edit removed the mention of Si Kahn. I'm probably the one who put him in, a long time ago, and I don't remember. I'm neutral on inclusion, but it would be a good discussion to have. North8000 (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@North8000: That is correct—you added the sentence about Kahn to the folk music article over seven years ago, and it was moved here when contemporary folk was split off. It is probably for the best that this minor piece of information has been removed after remaining unsourced for more than half a decade. LifeofTau 19:40, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

At the time I probably read some things that seemed to support that he had some prominence in the respect of the sentence that I included. I don't remember and don't have an opinion either way. Thought I might rustle up someone here who knows more about it than me. North8000 (talk) 00:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Adding a couple

Artist mentions need to be a very short list. There are two current ones where I've seen significant recent national coverage and a clearly classified as folk in sources which I'm planning to add.....Brandi Carlile and Patty Griffin. If anyone feels otherwise, I'm happy to reverse or discuss.North8000 (talk) 23:12, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Country folk

An editor deleted and redirected the Country Folk article to this article. The indicated the reason as the article being in existence for 11 years with no sources. Then they copied the entire sourceless contents of the deleted article into this article. This is not an implied criticism of the action as it it could be seen as a transition phase to where the overall picture needs to end up. But we clearly have a large amount of material that is both unsourced and of a quantity that is wp:undue to the top level contemporary folk music article. The lack of sources for 11 years could even be an indicator that this genre / topic does not even exist. In any event based on this rationale, I plan to substantially pare the added material. North8000 (talk) 14:31, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

On second look, it looks pretty well written even if unsourced. I don't see any obvious place to pare it and for now don't plan to do so. North8000 (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Contemporary folk music and Folk music

Moved discussion from User talk:Лобачев Владимир

Read the article, and more specifically this source, which clearly states that contemporary folk is "a term of art to describe music that people characterize as "folk," though it is not traditional in a strict sense.". In other words, contemporary folk music is still folk music. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

In other words, contemporary folk music is still folk music. – This is already your conclusion, this is not in the sources. Contemporary folk music is intended for the audience, music or arrangements are copyrighted. It is part of contemporary popular music. Traditional folk music is usually a product of oral folk art and is performed for oneself or in accordance with a ceremony (wedding and lullaby songs). --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 07:36, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Лобачев Владимир: You need sources to support your claims. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:14, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Лобачев Владимир: The Canadian Encyclopedia explicitly describes contemporary folk music as "folk music, contemporary", while AllMusic states that it refers to "post-Bob Dylan folk singer/songwriters of the 70s and beyond". Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:26, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

The term 'folk' has been applied freely to the music of the 'singer-songwriter' who emerged in the wake of the so-called folk music (or urban folk) revival of the 1940s and 1950s. (The Canadian Encyclopedia). Traditional folk music is predominantly rural music. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 16:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Contemporary Folk refers to post-Bob Dylan folk singer/songwriters of the 70s and beyond. (allmusic.com). Traditional folk music has been known since before the birth of Christ. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 16:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Лобачев Владимир: So ? We're not talking about "traditional" folk music here. No matter how modern contemporary folk music is, it's still a specific form of folk music, as all of the sources I provided so far clearly say. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

If we are not talking about traditional folk music, then only modern commercial folk music remains. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 16:36, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Лобачев Владимир: Learn to stick to what the sources say. This is clearly your opinion here, not what the sources say. Synthwave.94 (talk) 16:44, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

(there is also a related discussion at the folk music article.) Genre names are always vague and subjective. For folk music in particular this has gone through much discussion and changes on Wikipedia over the last 15 years. The current wiki approach for the top level article(s) is considering that the 20th century revival basically created a new more or less different genre, also called "folk music", to recognize and cover both, and do our best at giving them article titles. There's more on the Folk music talk page regarding this. North8000 (talk) 17:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: This discussion directly comes from Wikimedia Commons, where Лобачев Владимир incorrectly categorized several contemporary folk music based on his opinion, and not on what reliable sources say, as you can see here and here. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: Also, can you take a look at Wikidata ? There are two different pages for (contemporary) folk music (1 and 2) and for (contemporary) folk music groups (1 and 2) that I tried to be clean up as far as I can, but Лобачев Владимир reverted all of them, without any explanation. Synthwave.94 (talk) 12:59, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@Synthwave.94: I've never been to Wikidata but I'll give it a try. I've been getting and reading leading sources on this for the last few years. The definitions are even more variable than for other genres. So somebody (e.g.) saying something is "wrong" is not sourcable and not correct and probably based on personal opinion. But conversely, that it also means that it's hard to say that any particular definition is "right". North8000 (talk) 18:18, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: I never said I was right or wrong, but why is this page linked to other Wikipedia pages which are explicitly named "folk", música folk, musique folk and so on ? It doesn't make any sense : folk music should be linked to all of them, not contemporary folk music. Synthwave.94 (talk) 12:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Synthwave.94: I wasn't even hinting in the tiniest way at critiquing anything that you are doing or saying. I was mostly just putting that info out there, and in a secondary way critiquing a few of the things that Лобачев Владимир was saying here. I took my first look at Wikidata .... that's a whole 'nother world where at the moment I'm clueless. It will probably take me a few more visits before I can be of any use there. North8000 (talk) 15:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Synthwave.94: In case this is of any help, while genre names can be debated, and the two are related, the content of the top level folk music articles is pretty clear:

• This Contemporary folk music article covers "all music that is called folk that is not traditional folk music".
• The Folk music article covers traditional folk music.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: I perfectly understand why they are two separate articles, but links between the different Wikipedia/Wikimedia Commons should be consistent as well. As for Wikidata, you simply need to take a look at my changes (see the four links above) and to restore them by removing incorrect link/adding other ones from the other page. If you think it's too complicated for you (nothing wrong with that), I can restore all of these changes by myself. It really depends on you. Synthwave.94 (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Synthwave.94: BTW the way I originally did it (and my preference) was to cover both in a bifurcated "Folk Music" article. This made it easy to split which somebody did when I wasn't around. So I have it on my to do list to learn Wikidata and the situation. To speed things up maybe you should just make the changes. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: That's OK, and if Лобачев Владимир reverts me again, I'll let him know that you agree with my changes. Synthwave.94 (talk) 21:49, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Cool. If you need me perhaps you could point me to where needed so that this wikidata-dummy could participate. :-) North8000 (talk) 11:45, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Contemporary? The term relates to current or very recent time. The 1950s and 1960s were over 50 years ago, eras that we really cannot call "contemporary." I suggest that two separate articles be created. One for the time up to the 1970s. Another for 1980 and afterwards (or 1975 or afterwards). The prior period has pure [fully acoustic] folk music. The latter period has artists such as Ani DiFranco who at times blend into punk or other genres that flourished after 1977. The genre leans into left wing politics. The concerns of the 1960s were different from those of the 1980s -Vietnam War in the 1960s, nuclear energy in the 1980s.Dogru144 (talk) 18:41, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Being brief......my last few wiki minutes for 9 days. There are three different questions combined into one:

1. Questioning whether the English folk revival 1940's-1960's music can properly be called "contemporary"
2. The possibility of a new separate article for 1970's-on folk music
3. If #2 is done, what to name them.

If anyone is interested, I'd suggest that the next step would be to try to incubate/test #2 by development/improvement of it as a section within this article. IMO it would be difficult because of the reduction and dispersal of the use of the term. North8000 (talk) 11:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Music in History Intersectionality and Music

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 9 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Crustpunklibrarian (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Crustpunklibrarian (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Seeger photo at top

At Template:Infobox_music_genre#image, the instructions tell us not to use a photo of a particular musical artist at the top, to represent a broad genre. Binksternet (talk) 20:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I've not checked the archives but seem to recall that there was a discussion on this and this was decided/confirmed. There are few genres where some may of the giants credit an artist with being a inspiration, mentor etc. etc. North8000 (talk) 20:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I would tend to put a little weight on what the template notes say, but IMHO it should not dominate the decision. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Woody Guthrie deserves the top spot just as much as Pete Seeger. Burl Ives isn't far behind. The Almanac Singers had all three of these cats join at some point... perhaps they are the best choice. If no consensus can be formed (or found in the archives) then the article should not have a single person shown at the top. Binksternet (talk) 22:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

To fix an important error in my post (added the "not"): I would tend to put a little weight on what the template notes say, but IMHO it should not dominate the decision. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@Binksternet: What did you mean by "had all three of these cats join at some point"....that sounds interesting. North8000 (talk) 01:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Guthrie, Seeger and Ives all sang with the Almanac Singers. Guthrie and Seeger were cofounders, while Ives was an occasional member. Binksternet (talk) 01:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@Binksternet: IMO having an image is a big plus, and I don't give much weight to template notes. My idea, let's have an image and you decide which one it will be. All of your ideas sounded good. North8000 (talk) 19:08, 18 June 2023 (UTC)