Talk:Corleck Head

Notes

• "in the Hall's farm": "Hall" doesn't seem to be mentioned elsewhere. - Dank (push to talk) 21:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Corleck Head/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 20:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Looks like an interesting topic; I'll take a look this week. Hog Farm _Talk 20:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• "The Corleck Head was discovered during the excavation of a large Neolithic site between 1832 and 1900," - not in the body of the article?
• "but was not reported to archaeologists until 1948 after its prehistoric dating was realised by the historian Thomas Barron; " - the bottom of the article says that Barron contacted a national museum in 1937?
• "The three heads may represent a trinity representing the unity of the past, present and future, ancestral mother-figures representing "strength, power and fertility" - would recommend adding this to the section in the body about the symbolism of the artifact
• "Other local examples include [...] an object found in Glejbjerg, Denmark" - something from Denmark is a local example to an idol from Ireland?
• Kelly 1984 and Kelly 1983 are listed as sources but don't seem to be used
• Ditto with Rynne 1964
• " The others are Cathedral Hill in Armagh town, the Newtownhamilton and Tynan areas in Armagh County, the most southern part of Lough Erne in County Fermanagh, and the Raphoe region in County Donegal." - cited to Rynne p. 78 but this is on Rynne p. 80 in the linked copy

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

• "include the wooden Ralaghan Idol (c. 1096–906 BC)" - not seeing where Rynne provides this date (Rynne's footnote expresses uncertainty as to where this belongs to the Hallstatt or La Tene cultures)

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll take another look once these are addressed. Hog Farm _Talk 01:57, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks v much; working through. Ceoil (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ceoil: - I'd forgotten about this review. Please let me know when you're ready for me to continue. Hog Farm _Talk 15:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Ceoil, @Hog Farm, I just noticed this was still open and thought you might like a reminder ping. -- asilvering (talk) 18:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Asilvering, @Hog Farm...I've been tardy here but will ping Hog in next few days for a final look. Ceoil (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Hog Farm. sorry for the tardy response, real life disasters unfortunately, but I think all of your points have been met in last few days. I would be very please if you could reengage again, whether positively or with more suggestions/observations. Ceoil (talk) 00:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Ceoil - I don't think I'll be able to get to this for at least another few days. I still don't have a consistent internet connection after moving. Problems with getting service switched over. Hog Farm _Talk 03:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no rush Hog and thanks. I usually only edit at weekends anyway, when you have time is grand, there is no panic with this one. Time would be fine as I do need head space (pardon the pun) to finish up on Doolittle before taking this, and its companion article, the Tandragee Idol, further. I do understand the pressure and multiple wiki obligations you have, and how it might bear down, weeks or months time is fine, and to note how appreciative I am for the detailed review thus far; very very helpful. Ceoil (talk) 07:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ceoil: - this is still on my radar; I've just been much busier than I expected and it took longer to get the internet issue resolved than I expected. This is towards the top of the priority list for me, but I just need to be able to get a block of time to look at this. Hog Farm _Talk 05:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Grand, and no hurry or problem. Ceoil (talk) 05:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Continuing:

• There is a CN tag outstanding that needs resolved

  Not done....its a reminder to self to find the source where I remember reading it from in last few days. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

  Done Ceoil (talk) 00:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

• The head was discovered in the c. 1855 during the excavation of a large Neolithic passage grave but also The Corleck Head was found around 1855 by the local farmer James Longmore while gathering stones to build a farmhouse. - is there disagreement in the sources about how the head was discovered?

  Clarified...it was unearthed during the excavation, but found by the farmer.. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• "which Barron collectively named the "Corleck Gods" - who is Barron?

  Move "the historian" to first instance. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• "It was first brought to national attention in 1948 after its prehistoric dating was realised by the historian Thomas J. Barron" - this is in the lead and should also be in the body of the article

  Its said. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• "Although many of the Ulster heads are now believed to be pre-christian," - should Christian be capitalized in this context?

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• "According to Barron, he was approached in a bog one day holding a large stick-like object which turned out to be the Ralaghan Idol" - this seems to be missing a word
• "you can't take what's ben offered." - is "ben" a spelling error or a transcripton of an error in the quote passage?

  Typo, fixed Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• The infobox has the spelling Corkick Hill - is that an error for Corleck?

  Fixed Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll look back over the article once these are addressed. Hog Farm _Talk 00:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

• All addressed Hog, but can you give a week to respond before I do another c/e, so can try and eliminate the need for you focus so closely on prose. Tks Ceoil (talk) 01:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sure - let me know when you're ready for me to revisit. Hog Farm _Talk 01:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

  Hi Hog Farm, and tinkered a bit following the above, and am ready for a final review now. Ceoil (talk) 00:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the reminder - I'll try to get to this over the next few days. Hog Farm _Talk 13:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Continuing:

• The lead mentions 1948 as a significant date; this should be in the body as well
• Fixed. Ceoil (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• "it was probably discovered in the nearby townland of Drumeague on the site of a large c. 2500 passage tomb that was then under excavation" - it's a bit unclear to me what the c. 2500 is measuring? Is it 2500BC?
• Fixed. Ceoil (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Required spot-checks:

• "There and later claims are circumstantially supported by a number of Iron Age burial sites found to contain decapitated bodies or severed skulls." - OK
• "As with most extant Iron Age stone idols found in Ireland, it is cut from limestone" - I'm struggling to find this in Rynne 1972 - can you point me to where this is in the source? I've been trying to cut down on my caffeine intake and I'm probably just missing it

  Ugg. Have removed the claim for now until I re-find the source for that (have been searching running through the various dead tree books, ebooks and jstor pdfs). I really need to create a parent for these objects; am toying with either Ancient Celtic sculpture or Celtic stone idols.[1]. This would take away some of the heavy lifting in explaining context that the article is currently carrying. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  Pinging Johnbod who is likely familiar with the subject matter and may have a view. Ceoil (talk) 20:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• "A small number of faces on contemporary Irish and British anthropomorphic examples have similar closely-set eyes, slim mouths and broad noses" - not seeing the reference to the slim mouths on p. 80 of Rynne?

Added a 2nd ref to Waddell (2023), p. 321, which taking from Rynne says "...round eyes..simple mouth and wedge shaped noses." Ceoil (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

That's all I've got time for this evening. Hog Farm _Talk 01:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no rush and thanks once again, all good points. Ceoil (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the continued delay:

• "The Corleck head cut from local from limestone" - something has gone wrong here grammatically

  Done. Am due a visit from the GOCE before this goes to FAC. Ceoil (talk) 20:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

To finish up the spot-checking stuff, would you be willing to provide the quotes from sources if possible for three or so passages that should be straight-forward to quote support for? That might be easiest as I don't have access to most of the sources. Hog Farm _Talk 00:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds good to me. Im traveling at the moment, so dont have the books, bud do have all the journal pdfs. Ceoil (talk) 13:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's go with:

• "The Corleck head has not received significant scholarly study, outside of research by Barron and the folklorist and Celtic scholar Anne Ross"

  Ceoil, I'm just waiting on the source quote for this one. After that, I'll read through this again and I think it'll be good to close. Hog Farm _Talk 18:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'm holding back on this as want to expand. Waddle p. 371 says "Though often illustrated, the Corleck head has never been fully published", and its well established that Barron did all the fieldwork (noted by his biographer and Ross), and its often commented that Ross overall put the pre-Christian stone heads in historical context, with especial focus on the Corleck head. Would appreciate if you give a few more days to clarify this. Ceoil (talk) 07:46, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  Take as long as you'd like. My main preference is just to be able to get this closed before it hits the 1 year mark. Hog Farm _Talk 13:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  Hog Farm; have found a problem with the statement...the then National Museum of Ireland director Adolf Mahr gave a lecture in 1937 on the head ("A Lecture on a stone head found in Corleck, Co. Cavan") which I had not known about and cannot find a transcript for. Mahr is not often mentioned in later sources, perhaps because he was head of the Dublin Nazi chapter in the early 1940s!! Anyway, have reached out to one of the sources who both wtote a bio of Barron and has published a recent summary of the head, for advice both on the statement and the possibility tracking down further info on the contents of the lecture. Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Hog, no response from Smyth, so have removed the statement. Given this, I would appreciate it if you could widen your source integrity sample further. Ceoil (talk) 20:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to get to this later this week - rather burnt out from IRL stuff at the moment. Hog Farm _Talk 00:53, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

• "Emily Bryce, a relative of the Halls, remembered childhood visits throwing stones at it"

  Smyth 2012, p. 24: "In 1935, Barron 'came to know' of the Corleck head and reported it to the National Museum.[35] 1937, the stone head was collected and brought to Dublin by Dr Adolph Maher, director of the National Museum of Ireland.[36] Up to that time the three-faced Corleck head had been positioned on the top of a gate post leading into the Hall family's farm at Drumeague. Emily Bryce, a relative of the Hall family, recalled how 'as children on a day visit' to their 'grandfather Sam Hall', they would fire stones at the Corleck head."[37] Ceoil (talk) 20:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  Note this passage is cited to Barron who did the primary research and interviewed Bryce. Ceoil (talk) 20:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• "The hole at its base indicates that it was once attached to a larger structure, perhaps a pillar comparable to the now lost 6 ft (1.8 m) wooden pillar found in the 1790s in a bog near Aghadowey, County Londonderry which was capped with a figure containing four heads"

  I have some of this to hand. The Aghadowe pillar is this, a screenshot from Waddel 1998 p. 361, while Waddell 2023 p. 375 says "A wooden carving 1.8m tall was found in a bog at Ballybritin, just north of Aghadowey and South of Coleraine, County Derry, in the eighteenth century and is known only from a crude thumbnail sketch in the [1836 OS]. The brief accompanying account, however is quite informative: "...It was a long circular block of wood like the trunk of a tree and about 6 feet long. At the top there were 4 heads each looking different ways with 4 faces and carved hair."

  Re the hole at its base; this is covered in most mentions, eg Fintan O'Toole says "A small hole in the base of the head suggests that it was secured to some kind of pedestal. One of the mouths also has a small circular hole, a feature that links it to several carved heads from Yorkshire."100objects.ie] Ceoil (talk) 00:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  The two are joined together in Waddel 1998, Ó Floinn 2002, and Smyth 2012. I only reffed Waddel 1998 as this seems to be where the connection was first established, although it seems to have been a thing - again a parent article is needed; am researching - but it will be difficult - stone is hard to date so historiography and basis will be a key section. Ceoil (talk) 00:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  So the discovery date of 1790s doesn't seem to be specified in the quote in Waddell? And it also sounds like O'Toole needs to be added as well as an additional citation, to support the connection and avoid WP:SYNTH issues. Hog Farm _Talk 18:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

  Waddle 1998 p. 360 says "it may be compared to a 1.8m high wooden carving found in the 1790s in a bog at Ballybritain, just north of Aghadowey, Co. Derry (Fig. 180, 1). Sadly this ‘heathen image,’ which was carved from a tree trunk and had four heads or faces

with hair depicted, was allowed to fall to pieces and is only known from a minute sketch." Have changed ref back to this. Ceoil (talk) 20:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Ceoil? Hog Farm _Talk 00:47, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

These are from the books, not the journals so it's okay if it's awhile before you can get to this. I'll be very very busy for at least next week. Hog Farm _Talk 00:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Apologies...missed you q...was my birthday and was in a pub. Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Hog Farm you should probably fail this. It’s been like 8 months and still no consensus. 48JCL (talk) 13:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Have swapped to "Eighteenth century", as am having difficulty re-finding late 1790s, though am certain ts true. Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Eh, I'm not sure a fail is in order - the length of the review is more down to the reviewer than the responses. That said, I don't really care so much: Hog's suggestions have been really beneficial and have improved the article significantly, which is really all that matters. Ceoil (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Ping Hog Farm, realising we both have been slowish in closing this out :) Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay - work has been hectic. I'll probably be unavailable for most of next week. Can you please provide the source quotes for the following three items? If there aren't any issues with these, I'll pass the nomination.

Check 1: "they are mostly in the La Tène style, which reached Ireland c. 300 BC"

• There is a small amount of carved stone, including quern-stones and stone heads of which the Corleck Head is a well-known masterpiece...What gives the period its distinctive character is the widespread use of ornament to decorate objects using an art style that was developed first in central Europe by Celtic peoples. Known as the La Tène style, the art occurs on early objects.[2]
• During the third century BC, objects bearing La Tine designs began to appear. Kelly, Eamon. Early Celtic art in Ireland. p. 180. ISBN: 9780946172344 Ceoil (talk) 23:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Check 2: "Typically, they were utilised at larger cult or worship sites, of which the known examples are usually near holy wells or sacred groves"

• Classical references to Celtic religious practices refer to ceremonies connected with sacred groves and wells. Although these are now dedicated to Christian saints, the occurrence in modern Ireland of religious ceremonies at the sites of sacred trees and holy wells suggests the persistence of very ancient pre-Christian traditions. Some cult objects have survived..... Kelly, Eamonn. "The Archaeology of Ireland 3: The Pagan Celts". Ireland Today, no. 1006, 1984 Ceoil (talk) 23:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

check 3 "Classical Roman sources mention instances of Celts retaining the severed heads of their enemies as war trophies,"

• We have evidence from classical sources, fully substantiated by early insular vernacular tradition, that the head was prized by the Celts as a war trophy. The fact that severed heads were impaled on stakes about their dwellings and temples implies that they had a dual significance for their owners, i.e. as irrefutable evidence of military prowess, and as amulets. Ross, Anne. "The Human Head in Insular Pagan Celtic Religion". Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, volume 91, 1958 Ceoil (talk) 23:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Hog Farm, just to be sure I did the replies blind from searching keywords in the pdf...but the books will largely say the same and mentioned above most of the primary research was done very early; but can quote from the books no problem. Ceoil (talk) 23:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

English Q

Minor query: exactly which dialect of English are we in here, and how (inter alia) does it spell "artefact"?

Disclaimer: that's absolutely a genuine enquiry, not me trying and failing to be a smartarse. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 15:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

"may have become used"

At the end of the lead, we currently have ... may have become used during the Lughnasadh harvest festivals. I am not sure what "become" is doing here and to me it sits awkwardly. How does it differ from ... may have been used ...? The use of become seems to suggest a change of state ... but from what? Not existing, or some previous gig? Sorry, I am prolly talking confused nonsense. Do enlighten me. If we do need become can we clarify why this word? DBaK (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Good spot, resolved DBAK. Ceoil (talk) 03:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Corleck hill or Corleck Hill?

Is it significant enough to have a cap or is that just not the right usage? I am thinking of other places where there is an established name and the cap is part of it ... Silbury Hill, Solsbury Hill, Roseberry Topping, Arthur's Seat. I would love to cap it all up but not if it is known to be correct already. I have failed to find it on a map ... best to all DBaK (talk) 08:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Its Hill with CAPS from a quick scan of the sources. I agree that it deserves caps myself, given its pre-historic signifance as a site for cut worship. I might just do up a quick article as there is a lot in the sources. Thanks. Ceoil (talk) 11:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Funnily enough it's not far from where my grandparents used to live. They had a farm less than ten miles to the east, on the Cavan-Monaghan border. - SchroCat (talk) 09:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)