Talk:Cristóbal Saavedra Corvalán

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus for move. Favonian (talk) 16:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

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Cristóbal Saavedra-Corvalán → Cristobal Saavedra-Corvalan — per the article's own sources at ATP pand ITF and other official tennis websites, this should be moved to the common English sourced name of Cristobal Saavedra-Corvalan. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support - per the stated reasons. Fyunck(click) (talk)
• Oppose - sources mentioned may be authorities on statistics, results, rankings, etc, but they're not authorities on spelling. No established usage is what goes. HandsomeFella (talk) 10:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

  This no establish usage is dead wrong. Their own tennis organizations, ATP and ITF spell it that way, as does the press as sourced below. The only authorities on spelling would be dictionaries and I don't think you can find Mr. Saavedra-Corvalan's name there in Websters. Ana Ivanovich certainly has zillions of English spelling sources, do you just use a different reason for excluding those sources (including her own web page)? Or do you at least agree that her page should be moved? Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Name given without diacritics in the Sydney Morning Herald. Kauffner (talk) 13:37, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support - Reliable sources indicate that the name isn't usually spelled with diacritics. Absconded Northerner (talk) 15:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose misspelling per our standard practice, the house styles of other encyclopedias and the recommendations (or requirements) of English style guides (including Chicago, AMA and APA): Foreign words and names (especially those of living people) must be spelled correctly with the appropriate diacritical marks. Prolog (talk) 19:07, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

  We must follow our sources, not assume that they are they are incorrect. What about Malaysia Star, Fox News, or ESPN? None of them can spell? Kauffner (talk) 06:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

  I think they can if they bothered, but none of them care about diacritics. That's not a reason for wikipedia to deliberately misspell the name here. HandsomeFella (talk) 06:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

  This "misspelling" stuff is getting old and ridiculous. We might as well say that in common English Cristóbal Saavedra-Corvalán is a horrible misspelling that misleads and confuses first language English speakers. We simply have a disagreement of what English sources to use. You pretty much have none. And for your information places like the ITF do use diacritic symbols like in "Viña del Mar" right in the same pages as players names. They obviously don't filter everything. ATP, WTA, ITF, Wimbledon, US Open, etc... are perfectly great English sources for a persons name spelling when we are talking about tennis players. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

  I doubt that any serious publication agrees with your idea that the style of articles should, on a case-by-case basis, follow the stylistic practices of the sources used for biographical information (if not reference works) or the results of a Google popularity contest. None of your sources are encyclopedias or authoritative on the English language and it is indeed well-known that newspapers contain misspellings, as noted by Robert Bringhurst in The Elements of Typographic Style: "Yet there are large-circulation newspapers in North America still unwilling to spell correctly even the names of major cities, composers and statesmen, or the annual list of winners of the Nobel Prize, for fear of letters like ñ and é." Prolog (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

  Nuff said. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

  Almost all those non-common-English letters fritter away with time in English except for a handful. We don't use them. Those papers aren't afraid of them, we don't use them. We have spelling bees in English. Most other countries don't. Why? Because they have letters or diacritics to take care of sound changes. English does not. If we get a word like Café we soon start spelling it simply Cafe. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources for wikipedia but they are still sources. The ATP, WTA, ITF, Fed Cup, Davis Cup, Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open and French Open are better sources for tennis players. And if you can source me a "dictionary" that spells Cristobal Saavedra-Corvalan's name with diacritics that would be a good start. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, favoring common English over proper English is not the way to write an encyclopedia. Britannica and others agree. I'll note that ATP lists Jan-Erik Lundqvist as Jan-Eric Lundquist. As for dictionaries, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary spells foreign names with the correct diacritics. Prolog (talk) 22:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Which is why we look at multiple sources. The spelling mistakes in wikipedia are huge and there are spelling mistakes in my Concord Desk Encyclopedia also. As for the Websters dictionary that is not a direct English source for the name "Cristobal Saavedra-Corvalan." When I type that into online Websters I get nothing. At least I am giving actual sources that use the name. That's what we use here on English wikipedia... first hand English sources. Even though it's a tertiary source I doubt that name pops up in EncyBrit either. Some of us are giving the administrator who looks at this the source tools she needs to see how Cristobal Saavedra-Corvalan is spelled in the English alphabet. So she can take a check list and go yep, yep, yep, etc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Following Spanish custom seems to be the consensus mode for Latino sportspeople. First reference used in article (ESPN Sports) spelling it correctly, is all the reason to use the diacritics. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.