Talk:Cromwell (film)

Clarification requested

A more accurate treatment of Cromwell and his times is to be found in To Kill a King.

What is To Kill a King? Is it a book, a film, a video game, a hip-hop album? If a book, who wrote it? Why is this source more accurate? It would not matter as much if there were an article at the link, but there isn't. Please clarify, or the sentence will need to be deleted, as it expresses an unsourced POV.

In addition, there are no sources given for the article whatsoever, so the entire thing is unsourced original research. Qualified sources need to be found, and the parts which remain unsourced removed. Thanks. -- BillCJ 20:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

To Kill a King is a 2003 movie starring Tim Roth as Oliver Cromwell and Dougray Scott as Sir Thomas Fairfax. There is information on imdb about this movie, though I have not seen the movie yet. [1] Exhartland 08:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• In fact neither film is an accurate representation of the period. Both choose what to tell and what to invent. (Because, after all, they are for entertainment; if you want fact, go to the Library). I've removed the statement in any case, as it was complete POV. Marcus22 12:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Spain

Wasn't it shot in Spain? --84.20.17.84 17:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:001 Charles I as painted by Sir Anthony van Dyck and portrayed by Sir Alec Guiness.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg

Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg

Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg

Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:001 Charles I as painted by Sir Anthony van Dyck and portrayed by Sir Alec Guiness.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg

Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg

Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg

Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:001 Charles I as painted by Sir Anthony van Dyck and portrayed by Sir Alec Guiness.jpg

Image:001 Charles I as painted by Sir Anthony van Dyck and portrayed by Sir Alec Guiness.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg

Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg

Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg

Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:001 Charles I as painted by Sir Anthony van Dyck and portrayed by Sir Alec Guiness.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg

Image:002 Olivier Cromwell as painted warts and all by Peter Lely aka Pieter van der Faes and portrayed by Richard Harris.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg

Image:003 Sir Edward Hyde later 1st Earl of Clarendon in a print of the time and portrayed by Nigel Stock.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:004 Sir Thomas Fairfax in a print of the time and portrayed by Douglas Wilmer.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Cromwell movie poster.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"criticised for its historical inaccuracies"

There are no sources whatsoever for this claim in the "historical points" sections. Rather, there are sources (apparently) for the "accurate" history (and many that have no source at all, even of the WP:SYNTH sort). If no such sources can be provided, the entire section needs to be removed as OR. 84.203.40.54 (talk) 16:04, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Virtually any item of information could be labelled "original research" by somebody so inclined - what cite is there for the fact that it is a film rather than a banana? It says that Charles I was "a brave man" - where's the cite that he was a man not a female elephant? Recommendations should not be used as if they were iron laws as an excuse to remove correct and useful information. It would be a great pity to lose information which is presumably useful to history teachers showing the film to their classes etc.MissingMia (talk) 14:59, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

That whole section is a travesty of "not getting the point" of what the film project's articles are supposed to be about, particularly in regard to historical films. As another editor noted in a conversation on another historical film, this section is mostly armchair historians' work. I don't doubt that all of it is true, but the point of a section like this in a film article is to note what reliable sources have said regarding inaccuracies. Tagged for reference improvement (and thank goodness for the discussion at Braveheart that brought it to the attention of other editors). Millahnna (talk) 20:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Clarification desperately needed

What is this confusing statement supposed to mean?

...oddly enough, Dalton was being granted the role of James Bond (to replace the outgoing Sean Connery) whom he would portray 17 years later.

"Oddly enough" is blatant editorializing and must go, but the rest just doesn't make any sense. Was it meant to say that Dalton was hired to play a character named Bond in this film? He wasn't. Is it trying to say that he was being hired to play Bond at the same time this film was made? He wasn't (Connery was lured back to replace Lazenby in Diamonds Are Forever, which would be released the following year, and Connery was succeeded in the role by Roger Moore, who continued in the role for over a decade). It's nearly complete gibberish. Dalton was hired to play Prince Rupert in this film; was someone trying poorly to indicate that that role was intended for Connery, but Connery left the project (presumably to film Diamonds Are Forever)? In that case, a source is required (in addition to a remedial course in verb conjugation and sentence structure), because I can find nothing to support the idea that Connery was ever involved in this project. 12.233.147.42 (talk) 02:17, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Interesting aside but the fact is not really relevant to the film. The thought of the older Scot (Connery) playing young Prince Rupert (who was in his 20s during the Civil War) at the time seems laughable now.Cloptonson (talk) 08:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

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Historical points

I have condensed this section a little as a few points seemed problematic. The section about Naseby didn't really say anything about inaccuracies not covered elsewhere. I think there is some dispute about Cromwell's exact words when he dissolved the Rump. I think the film does make his anti-Catholicism clear with his behaviour in the Church at the start. Cromwell was not granted the crown, so not sure what this section is on about. PatGallacher (talk) 17:39, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Cromwell was not present when the king was moved from Newport, nor was he taken directly to London. According to C. V. Wedgewood's closely researched account, Colonel Ewer and Major Rolph moved the king to Hurst Castle on the mainland with only half an hour's notice. (The Trial of Charles 1, pp.339-40). I have accordingly deleted the assertion that Cromwell was present; he was in fact still in the North. Sweetpool50 (talk) 10:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

It's many decades since I read CV Wedgewood, but some accounts do have Charles and Cromwell meeting at least once around this time. It had been challenged years ago on the grounds that "I can't believe that this was the only time they ever met". In fact it is far from implausible, unless you count the times when Cromwell was a junior MP in the same room as the King. To my knowledge there is no evidence that Queen Elizabeth I and Mary Queen of Scots ever actually met in real life, despite a number of films including one or more fictionalised "this meeting never took place, and no record is to be kept" summit meetings.Paulturtle (talk) 18:29, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Historical inaccuracies

I could have appended this entry to the previous on inaccuracies from 2012 but it's clear to me that entry is pointless and it does not drive any useful discussion.

If the movie distorts the story of Oliver Cromwell and anything that pertained or correlated to him, what exactly is inaccurate? I think a section that discusses that is necessary.

ICE77 (talk) 23:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, quite. I'm sure there were plenty of published film reviews at the time, but it's quite an old film, so it's probably not easy to find material, printed or online, about it in the way that one can for, say, the ridiculous inaccuracies in "Braveheart" (a perfectly entertaining film, sometimes unintentionally so, but also a notorious load of tripe from the historical point of view).

It is (or was) useful information, I now find, visiting the article for the first time in a year or so, that somebody has deleted it for being "unreferenced" (not actually true) and "original research" (get a life - that rule is there to stop people from writing bollocks in articles, not to be used as an excuse for deleting correct information that the deleter "doesn't like"). The deleter then deleted it again despite being having been reverted. Yawn.Paulturtle (talk) 02:07, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

> what exactly is inaccurate?

TLDR: I think it hero-worships him.

When I was at school, history meant mainly English kings and queens; and important wars and battles. Cromwell ranked as if he were a king, in this version of history; partly because the consequences of the English Revolution still echo down the years.

Nearly sixty years on, I think he isn't granted the kind of king-like deference we used to give him in the sixties, and can take a more realistic view. Like, he did a lot of awful stuff to Irishmen and Scotsmen; and he suspended Parliament. He's presented as ultra-pious and upright in the film, but now I think he's probably seen as a bit of a hypocrite.

Those aren't exactly inaccuracies, but in sum they amount to what looks now like a whitewash. MrDemeanour (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, there was an element of seeing him as a "great, bad man", but more importantly in Victorian times and well into the twentieth century Cromwell was despised by High Church Anglicans and regarded as a Cincinnatus-like hero of English liberty and religious tolerance by nonconformists (he was an Independent rather than a Presbyterian, and believed that there should be a degree of tolerance between Protestant sects because the Will of God transcended the comprehension of any man). Have a read of how he was mentioned in the speeches of Lloyd George. Nowadays the nonconformist churches have more or less vanished and people tend, in my experience, to be brought up to regard him as a genocidal bigot and are often quite surprised to be told that the first is debatable (based at best on an oversimplified binary view of the Irish history of that era) and that to regard him as particularly "bigoted" by the standards of his own era is largely nonsense. Not sure one view is any more "realistic" than any other and "whitewash" is a very common response to articles about people who are demonised in popular mythology (Enoch Powell, Neville Chamberlain, Field Marshal Douglas Haig - take your pick), even if the article simply reflects reputable published books and the debates therein. True of films as well, eg. the rather pedestrian Thatcher biopic "The Iron Lady". But we should be talking about adding reliably sourced content to the article.Paulturtle (talk) 23:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Cast omission - who was 'Bishop Juxon/Laud'?

As one who recalls watching the film in 1970 and took home a film brochure (since lost) I recall that the same male actor is listed as playing both Archbishop William Laud earlier in the film and (then Bishop of London) Juxon at the execution scene of Charles I. However I do not see him in the list which is surprising as although the parts were brief in overall proportion to the film's length, these churchmen played key parts in the king's reign and (in Juxon's case) death, and the king's High Church religious policies in which they played part were part of the casus belli for Cromwell and the Parliamentarians pursuing the Civil War. Worth finding out. From memory the actor seemed elderly, and sounded rather like John Gielgud.Cloptonson (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

sounds like Felix Aylmer, whose parts ended up on the cutting room floor according to the article.Paulturtle (talk) 01:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I have checked the wiki article on Felix Aylmer but Cromwell does not appear among his filmography.Cloptonson (talk) 06:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

According to the article Felix Aylmer played "an archbishop" (presumably Laud) but his scenes were cut. The elderly-looking fruity-voiced actor to whom you refer is John Welsh (who despite his accent and his name was actually Irish, and would have been about 55 at the time). He is present as "a bishop" in the scene near the start where Strafford returns from Ireland, and I think is also the priest attending on King Charles just before his execution (belabouring the whole Christ-being-mocked-and-executed theme in his text). Both were Bishop Juxon in real life. The whole film is available to watch online for free these days.Paulturtle (talk) 18:28, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I have added Charles Welsh into the cast list after checking he did appear in this film.Cloptonson (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2022 (UTC)Cloptonson (talk) 19:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Fraser

We may or may not agree with George MacDonald Fraser's views, but we don't need a better source for what he said. PatGallacher (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2023 (UTC)