Talk:Culture of Malta/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Great work, Lamato. We need to add a section on the British period and its affect on Maltese culture, though. And I think the "Impact of migration" section is to a certain extent irrelevant. Marcus1234 08:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Marcus. I was hoping to make more progress with this before the end of the holidays, but ran out of time. I totally agree with you on the need for a good blurb on the impact of the British period on Maltese culture - it was and remains highly significant. I am not so sure about the irrelevance of migration. Perhaps the migration section needs to be re-written to show its relevance better, so I will take another crack at it as soon as I get a chance. I've not come across any scientific studies on this, but frankly, 20th cent. emigration was so extensive as a % of M's population, that it must have made the islanders more outward-looking than they were in previous centuries. That aside, we know that 25% or more of all 20th cent emigrants have returned to Malta, in many cases, bringing their foreign-born and educated children with them. They bring new ideas and traditions with them. I know of returned Canadians who still celebrate Thanksgiving, although they have now been in Malta for several years. Others are working on establishing baseball, softball and ice hockey in Malta - with mixed success. Also, prior to the 1990's Halloween simply did not feature on M's calendar. Is this the effect of returned migrants or purely globalization? lamato 14:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

One thing

A little section on Maltese cinema would be nice. Marcus1234 13:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Lamato 22:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Maltese balconies

According to this article, the enclosed wooden Maltese balconies were actually derived from "North African, mostly Moroccan, prototypes which again derive from the Arabic Muxrabija." They were apparently introduced by Turkish slaves. Marcus1234 06:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes - I've seen the same comment on other websites as well (see: [1]). What's interesting is that these balconies flourished under the Knights and even more so under the British, due to increased availability of lumber. However, slavery was abolished under the French, prior to the arrival of the British. The reference to Morocco suggests that the tradition may have come to Malta by way of Spanish Knights, who brought Moorish architectural influences (and slaves) with them. See also Prof. Denis De Lucca: [2], where he states the following:

"...peculiar timber covered balconies of Turkish origins soon started altering the face of many a Valletta and village street, all this resulting from the engagement of some skillful Turkish artisan in the humble carpentry shops that at the time were flourishing all over Malta."

I am looking for the original source of the Spanish connection; if I can't find it, I think this sentence should be deleted or moved up to the "Semitic influence/slavery" section. It would be nice to check what the more reputable architectural textbooks have to say about this.

Nominating for GA

Nominating for GA. Anonymous Dissident ^Utter 09:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

GA failed

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have quick-failed the article due to a lack of inline citations. There are some found throughout the article, but a lot more need to be added due to the amount of information and the length of the article. Entire sections throughout the article are not referenced. Go through the article and for every statement you think that may be questioned about its verifiability, then add an inline citation after it. Also, the lead should be expanded to better summarize the article. Look to WP:LEAD for explanation. See if there are any external links that you can include (make sure they comply with WP:EL. Once you have addressed these issues and looked over the other criteria, consider renominating. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate review at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 07:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Literature

I have take the part on Literature and copy pasted it to a new article called Maltese literature which didn't have so much content at the time. I have looked up if it was possible to request a move, but apparently this is only for full articles and not sections of them. As I am new here I have this itching feeling that this isn't right (attributions of the text won't show up on the new page for instance) but don't know how to proceed in a manner which would be correct. Any suggestions on this would be most welcome! Lebanese blond 13:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Bad lay out

First of all I've changed the word "origins" to "overview" because it really doesn't sound right the other way. Second of all, why should that section be broke up into "Romance" and "Semetic", rather than in historical cronological order? And where is the mention of Greek Byzantine culture, which is neither Semetic or Romance?

French culture, is very different to ancient Roman culture. Just as Arab culture is very different to ancient Phoenician culture. Also the the Normans, although associated with France, are of a Nordic background, so can they really be counted as purely Romance culture?... there is more to Malta than three simple fields of "Romance, Semetic, British" culture and this article should reflect that. - Cradashj (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

My edits

Please first see discussion at User talk: Taivo#Maltese-related articles

Here are the justifications for my edits. If you disagree with them, please discuss it here rather than edit warring.

Ascendancy of Latin European influence -> Increase in Latin European influence: "Ascendancy" means domination or control. It is POV to say that the Latin European influences dominate the Semitic influences, especially without a source, and especially as the Maltese continue to speak a Semitic language.

Addition of several "citations needed": Several things are stated as fact when they are completely unsourced. Adding this template will help improve the article by making sure it has sufficient sources.

Tuscan Italian -> Italian: "Tuscan Italian" is redundant, much like "recorded history". The language is known as Italian; if a different language of Italy was meant (eg. Sicilian) it would have said so.

Curiously, the Maltese word... corresponds with an identical Arabic word -> The Maltese word... corresponds with an identical Arabic word: There's nothing curious about this correspondance; the two words are cognates.--Yolgnu (talk) 06:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright, this is a much better way of going about things.

Ascendancy may be pov, but 'increase' is itself inaccurate.. Sicani influences, for example, were present on the island long before Semitic (Phoenician, Punic or Arabic) influences were. Perhaps a more agreeable term can be found.

The additional 'citations needed' are, variously, sourced by other articles/the article itself. Including them at random (which is what it seemed you did) doesn't encourage article improvement. Some have been retained.

The distinction ('Tuscan Italian') is important since so much of Maltese received Sicilian (Italian) influences.

And lastly, 'curiously' stands in to clarify that as a Catholic culture, the transformation of the Islamic gift concept into a matrimonial canopy is a profound shift in meaning. Again, a better way of showing this could be possible.

golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 10:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, discussion is a good way of going about things. Reverting everything, as you just did, is not.

• I don't understand your first argument. This is about Latin European and Semitic influences, not Sicanian influences (which have not survived into modern Maltese culture). There is nothing inaccurate with saying that Latin European influences have increased.
• "The increase in Latin European influence, and the subsequent decline in the importance of the Semitic origins of Maltese culture and folklore in latter centuries may also be an innate response to frequent national calamities." This doesn't make sense to me; the increase in Latin European influence was because Malta was occupied by Latin Europeans, not because the Maltese chose to be more greatly influenced by them. This proposal is radical and doesn't belong here without a citation.
• The proposal that Greek influence 2,000 years ago was so strong that it survived Arabization and still lingers today is radical and needs a citation.
• There really is nothing curious about the shift in meaning, which is actually quite minor. I'm not sure, in fact, whether this piece of trivia even belongs here.
• Latin Europe is a noun; Latin European is an adjective.
• Remove "spoken form" per User talk: Taivo.
• I agree with you on some of the other points, for instance the Tuscan/Italian distinction and some of the cites.

Please consider at least some of these points before reverting.--Yolgnu (talk) 12:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Everything was reverted in light of your previous behaviour. However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take a look at what you've done. I'm confident we can move past the pettiness that's been going on lately and, since you've got such a maintained interest in these articles, produce something of benefit to the Wikipedia community. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 12:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I've edited the article in line with what I consider suitable. If you'd like to attempt further edits, discuss them here. Also, since your edits to Malta related articles have gone on for a while now, I'd be interested to know what kind of authority/education you have on the subject. Thanks! golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 14:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I've presented my case; I'm waiting for your response. As to the "cultural affinities", I suppose a better template would be the "clarify" template; which "cultural affinities" are they referring to?--Yolgnu (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The most important cultural affinity is religious (and everything that means to a culture): Malta's Christian (specifically Catholic) heritage. Also, the fact that many of the island natives were/are originally Sicilian. The presence of a locally sustained literary culture involving Maltese Italians is another example. The article itself provides a further reason; (ii) the fact that Latin European cultures have had more recent and virtually continuous impact on Malta over the past eight centuries. All these factors contribute to what makes the Latin European element..more readily apparent in modern Malta. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question btw (re: authority/education). golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 11:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia works on reliable sources, not credentials. Now please answer my question, and justify your objection to "increase" and the "this may have been a reaction" cite. --Yolgnu (talk) 12:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

You have yet to provide a single source yourself. My question was perfectly civil: I suppose your honest answer is 'none'. Read my responses to find my answer. That is all. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I never said your question wasn't civil; I'm just educating you and improving your knowledge of how Wikipedia works. Even if I was the premier Maltese linguist, I'd be useless to Wikipedia if I didn't have any reliable sources; while a common uneducated Maltese peasant would be very useful if he had a few reliable sources. Which reminds me, don't you think it's very telling that Taivo has said that I'm right on every occasion?

But this is irrelevant to this article, so let's get back to the matter at hand - "ascendancy" means "domination", and since Malta still speaks a Semitic language, it is highly POV to say that the Latin European influences dominate the Semitic influences. However, saying that the Latin European influences have increased is not POV.--Yolgnu (talk) 23:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Whether Taivo agrees with you is neither here nor there.. however, I do remember him (?) correcting you on at least one occasion. Also, my question was simply a means of understanding what sort of education you've had regarding Malta in order to be making your unsourced edits time and time again. Indeed, a Maltese peasant could probably contribute lots more than some random Australian/Israeli in light of the fact that their wealth of experience is linked to the land they live in. With regard to 800 years of "domination", ascendancy works well. But as I've said, I'm not tied to the word. If something more suitable can be included, all the better ("increased" is not suitable). What you, as an individual who (I think) a) has never been to Malta, b) does not speak Maltese, c) has read nothing about Malta (judging by your lack of sourcing on any of the Malta related articles you've presumed to edit), consider POV is pretty controversial. The fact that Maltese is a Semitic language (heavily influenced by Romance languages and, more recently, English) doesn't reinforce your argument as to the breath of Maltese culture in the slightest. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 00:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll ignore your petty name-calling and suggest a compromise: I insist on adding a "citation needed" to the "innate response to frequent national calamities" theory as WP:OR. I don't care so much about the other points.--Yolgnu (talk) 09:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Yolgnu, you're a hypocrite. The article details "frequent national calamities". Which is why I don't think further citations are needed. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 09:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Not interested in a compromise? I'll speak to Taivo then and see what he thinks.--Yolgnu (talk) 23:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I thought we agreed on Taivo as a mediator?--Yolgnu (talk) 07:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Where did we agree to such a thing? You seem to have lots of funny ideas Yolgnu. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 07:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You posted this on Taivo's talk page: "Taivo, it would be helpful to have an informed opinion... if you find that bolstering Yolgnu is the way to go, that might be interesting to see too." Call it mediator, informed opinion or whatever - the fact is that you agreed to have Taivo resolve our disputes, and now you're cowardly denouncing his edits. If you want to make your controversial edits, Kalindoscopy, you need consensus, and at the moment no one is supporting you.--Yolgnu (talk) 07:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I am interested in EVERYONE'S opinion (even yours, strange as that may seem). That does not mean that I'm asking for 'mediation' (which is rather different to asking after an informed opinion). That comment has been grossly taken out of context (it was about the Maltese People article!). It referred to a specific incident. Also, I haven't denounced his edits entirely. I just doubt their suitability as currently presented. And I haven't been cowardly (pot calling the kettle..), simply cautious. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 08:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand you may be frustrated, but vandalising the talk page is not the way to show it.--Yolgnu (talk) 08:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yolgnu, you've been told off before for your (frequent) misuse of the 'vandalism' concept on wikipedia (by user:Jaysweet). Your refusal to learn is dissapointing, but entirely in character. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I was called into as a wikipedia member who for considerable time contributed into articles relating to Malta. I would be grateful if you could summarise what are the current objections, because I could not get hold of what's wrong! Frankly, I find the article too lenghty to be left into one article!!Maltesedog (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey Maltesedog; user:Taivo made some interesting suggestions on their talkpage as to how the article may be improved, if you'd like to check them out. As to the above barrage, I'm ashamed I got so drawn into it. I have a feeling Yolgnu thrives off agression, even if it's as banal as a wikipedia 'fight'. I've resolved to ignore the user as much as possible in the future and reserve my comments when pertinent edits are directly involved. If you've got any ideas of your own as to how we might improve the article, please share them! golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

No, Kalindoscopy, editing people's comments on a communal talk page is vandalism. You seem to have gotten the hint and stopped though, which is a good thing because if you had done it one more time I would have reported you at WP:AIV. You've already been given ample warnings over vandalising other people's talk page comments by multiple users. (talk)

Hush. One would've hoped that after your ban, you'd have learnt some sense. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Uh, what? I was never banned.--Yolgnu (talk) 05:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Maltesedog. You can get a good summary of the dispute at User_talk:Taivo#Maltese-related_articles.--Yolgnu (talk) 14:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm still unhappy over this idea that Malta "called out" to Christian Europe to save it from its "national calamities". Malta was occupied continuously by Christian Europe from the end of the Arab conquest until the late 20th century, so there was no need for it to "call out".--Yolgnu (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Attention

I find this article marred with historical and other errors. I am in particular referring to the the Semetic influences on Malta. The sources are unreliable and archaic (1903 and 1930s respectively) , furthermore to make sweeping statements like this you have to include multiple sources. Furthermore these books are written by amateur anthropologists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.97.148 (talk) 12:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.235.98.227 (talk) 13:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC) 

The more sources you can find/contribute, the better! 汚い危険きつい (talk) 03:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

That's true! But incorrect information shouldnät be used. It's better leaving out information than including comnpletely wrong information

"Algerian legend claims that the ancestors of the present Maltese, together with the first Algerians, fled from their original homeland of Aram, with some choosing to settle in Malta and others in North Africa, which would suggest that the prototypical Maltese culture had Aramaean origins." The first people to come to Malta where from Sicily... and that is an undisputed archaeological fact. Secondly... it is a -legend- ... furthermore the soruce if from the early 20th century...

Proposed merge with Maltese folklore

I've just removed a copyvio from Maltese folklore, an article split from here in 2009 by Pietru. Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Pietru is now closed, but this one seems to have slipped through the net; it seems to me likely that other parts of it are also copyright violations. The bulk of the content is unreferenced. I suggest merging it back here; however, any content added here should be scrupulously rewritten from scratch and from reliable sources. I suggest that Mnarja probably merits its own article, as does the Maltese festa tradition. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:49, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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