Talk:Liz Truss lettuce

Tory contest ended the day before Liz Truss visited the Queen to be made PM

Re this bit - "Liz Truss became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom on 6 September 2022, following the July–September 2022 Conservative Party leadership election."

Since mere days matter a lot when discussing the Liz Truss tenure as Prime Minister (and its comparison with a lettuce), I would suggest making it clear that she was announced the winner of the Tory contest on 5 September (so became Tory Party leader then) but actually became PM the following day 6 September when then visiting the Queen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.210.174 (talk) 15:41, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kingsif (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that a lettuce outlasted Liz Truss? Source: [1]

• ALT1: ... that you can bet on a lettuce becoming the next British prime minister? Source: [2]

• • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Martini Maccomo
  • Comment: Brevity makes the best hook, methinks. If ALT1, it needs to be posted before the next British PM gets elected.

Created by Juxlos (talk). Self-nominated at 14:58, 20 October 2022 (UTC).

• No time for a review right now (at work), but I love ALT1. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
• I took a quick look and it seems fine. The hook is there referenced and the article is well-referenced. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

, article seems long enough, well referenced and in a neutral tone. Seems to pass notability and quality issues. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:21, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Why a Lettuce?

You could just pick any vegetable like pick literally whatever. MR. KJ0923 (talk) 02:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Ask the Daily Star folks. Juxlos (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

The lettuce is known for its short shelf life. In addition, the expression "wet lettuce" (particularly in Northern English) is often used to mean "someone who is a wuss. cries a lot, really sensitive and just a pussy in general": [3]. So it can have slightly derogatory connotations. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 08:34, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

The daily star used lettuce because someone there read an Economist article comparing her to lettuce Tulig71 (talk) 01:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Liz Truss lettuce. (non-admin closure) lettherebedarklight〔晚安 おやすみ〕ping me when replying 11:51, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

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Daily Star lettuce → Liz Truss resignation lettuce – This would a a more recognizable name, since it is more associated with Liz Truss than the Daily Star. I'm not particular opposing a different name, but *only* including the Daily Star is not recognizable enough in my view. PhotographyEdits (talk) 11:59, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - if you do a quick google search for the two terms, and take a run through of the first couple of pages of results, Daily Star Lettuce appears to be significantly more used (even excluding their own use of the term). I grant that it would be more recognisable in 40 years, but in forseeable usage and commonname, the status quo holds up. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Weak oppose on the Liz Truss Lettuce Nosebagbear (talk)

Partial Support - just Liz Truss lettuce - which according to [Google Trends] is more popular than the current title Daily Star lettuce and also the suggested Liz Truss resignation lettuce Chumpih ^t 12:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure which way I'm leaning, but I will point out that I'd say it's important to use quotation marks for this Google Trend, since it makes it more likely people are calling the lettuce that, versus just trying to figure out the connection: Google Trend with Quotes --Cerebral726 (talk) 12:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Move to Liz Truss lettuce as it is more WP:CONCISE than the nominator's suggestion. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 13:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Partial support for Liz Truss lettuce. I flip flopped between Daily Star or Liz Truss for lettuce. Liz Truss and the paper are both strongly associated with the lettuce but in the future it’ll probably be associated more witb Liz than with the Star. Juxlos (talk) 13:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Move to Liz Truss lettuce. "Liz Truss resignation lettuce" is too specific and Liz Truss lettuce seems to be the most common name. — ^Clyde!_Franklin! 17:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

i think it'd be funny 67.218.119.170 (talk) 18:24, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Oppose as weak and not funny. Maybe, "Truss premiership vs a supermarket lettuce lifespan deathwatch". Or something; there were some some fantastic newspaper headlines that maybe we could use as article title. Ceoil (talk) 18:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Genuinely, for articles on not-so-serious, irreverent matters such as this, humorous titles should be preferred to the usual wp:natural and wp:concise approaches. How to get a change in policy? Chumpih ^t 19:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I dont find it funny given the weaked position of the BOE, or for people crippled with almost doubled morgage interest. Have been toying with creating a page on trussomomics Ceoil (talk) 19:47, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You have a point. The lettuce is pure silliness. The economic policies incur widespread hardship. Chumpih ^t 20:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Change to Liz Truss lettuce More associated with Truss than the daily star.--Llewee (talk) 19:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• This is the right direction. As with all viral memes, it took on a life of its own and was improved on after the Star. Although their later images were prioceless. Maybe we should wait a bit or two to let the dust settle before deciding? Ceoil (talk) 20:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Support either Liz Truss Lettuce or Liz Truss Resignation Lettuce, as Lizz Truss is the one more associated with the lettuce than the paper itself. | MK17b | (talk) 19:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Support move to Liz Truss lettuce per above. Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Support move to Liz Truss lettuce per above. Willsteve2000 (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Noting I've reverted an unexplained move to Daily Star lettuce livestream by ElijahPepe. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I moved the page because "Daily Star lettuce livestream" is more apt than "Daily Star lettuce". elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:22, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Restored 'move under discussion' and moved this here talk page back. So as before, there's a note saying some thing like "please don't move this page until the discussion has concluded". Chumpih ^t 23:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks; had forgotten to check if the talkpage moved too! -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 01:42, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Partially support per above — i.e. support a move to "Liz Truss lettuce" per reasons listed by others above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 02:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support "Liz Truss lettuce". If I mentioned "the lettuce" in a conversation and the other person asked me "which lettuce?" I would clarify with "the Liz Truss lettuce" if they were already aware of it (and not "the Liz Truss resignation lettuce" or "the Daily Star lettuce").

It would be nice for consistency if we could point to some precedent set by some other thing that was in a similar "outlasting" contest, but I'm not aware of any such precedent. If anyone finds such a precedent that we can base this decision off of, please link it. Edderiofer (talk) 04:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

We don't need precedent, we have policy-based arguments in favour of moving to either Liz Truss lettuce or Liz Truss resignation lettuce. One of the opposes recognizes that they likely have long-term significance (which would be an argument to move), and the other is literally just WP:LULZ. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 04:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support "Liz Truss lettuce" per Edderiofer and others. Understated but still witty; works for me and will do well on search queries. Ceoil (talk) 07:56, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

?? WP:AVALANCHE ?? Looks like Liz Truss lettuce is overwhelmingly preferred at this point, with the only strong opposition because it's not funny enough. Chumpih ^t 08:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Move to Liz Truss lettuce. Shwcz (talk) 09:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support Liz Truss lettuce, until someone thinks of a funnier title that becomes more popular.  Tewdar  16:38, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  Whether a title is funny or not has no bearing on Wikipedia's naming policies. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 16:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

It does, indirectly, because if it's funny, it catches on, then RS use it, then we use it. That's what I meant. Liz Truss lettuce seems to be what a lot of sources are using at the moment. Anyway, have an outstanding evening.  Tewdar  17:59, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Tewdar and Dan - ye are both right. The supports are mostly grounded in policy (concise, searchable, meme is more associated with Truss than the Star, etc, AND the fact that it's funny doesn't hurt either. Some of the best humour is dry and said with a serious face. Ceoil (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Weak oppose I think the current title is fine, but if it were to be moved it should be moved to Liz Truss lettuce. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Weak oppose Current title is fine but if we have to move, Liz Truss lettuce XxLuckyCxX (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Supporting the Liz Truss lettuce move per already-mentioned reasons. InvadingInvader (talk) 21:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Strongly support move to Liz Truss lettuce. There is no need to disambiguate to Liz Truss resignation lettuce, until such time as there is another Liz Truss lettuce; and hence this lettuce will need to be focused on her resignation as Prime Minister. Secondly, there is no need to name as the Daily Star lettuce, as the Daily Star may well use the lettuce as a device for another person/thing of note – to compare lifecycle variances. Finally, if the existing title is to be retained, it should be called the Daily Star lettuce; and not the Daily Star lettuce – minor semantics! Rangasyd (talk) 09:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
• Move to Liz Truss Lettuce 2603:9000:CA02:CACC:7482:E5B3:51B4:6F2B (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, otherwise move to Liz Truss lettuce livestream — per other arguments. The title does not make it clear this is about a livestream. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:10, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  What else could it possibly refer to that would require the disambiguation? -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 23:45, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  That wouldn't appear to be a commonly searched name. Evidence using Google Trends. How are the other WP:CRITERIA satisfied? Chumpih ^t 01:26, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, otherwise move to Liz Truss lettuce. A resignation wasn't the only way for her to leave office, so the proposed title is too narrow in scope, and also it just reads awkwardly. Cpotisch (talk) 03:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, otherwise move to Liz Truss lettuce, Daily Star lettuce is a perfectly fine title and Liz Truss lettuce redirects to the page. Sahaib (talk) 06:56, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support Liz Truss lettuce per others, especially Rangasyd. Concision, precision. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support move to Liz Truss lecture, per others. Easier to navigate and locate for a casual user as well. Ecpiandy (talk) 23:13, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment It should be moved to something without Daily Star because the article talks about more than the Daily Star lettuce 2603:9000:CA02:CACC:8428:E690:50A9:9B83 (talk) 04:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment to closer: Please do not move until October 28, as this is currently in queue for DYK, and afaik things might break if it is renamed mid-appearance. Thank you! –LordPeterII (talk) 18:07, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• DYK through, may be moved now. –LordPeterII (talk) 20:38, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support move to Liz Truss lettuce per reasons articulated by other users. 193.37.240.128 (talk) 11:53, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose the move as proposed; support the title "Liz Truss lettuce" per WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE. There was not, for example, another lettuce for when Truss became prime minister, so the qualifier "resignation" is unnecessary. Epicgenius (talk) 13:53, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 Done Dr. Vogel (talk) 13:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I would go further than a rename and say we should merge this into October 2022 United Kingdom government crisis. Quarl ^(talk) 13:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

oppose merge -- the whole point is that the lettuce lasted longer than Liz Truss... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - per WP:NOMERGE points 2 and 3.-"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 13:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, plenty of content, sources, and separation in topic scope to warrant its own article. --Cerebral726 (talk) 13:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as per above. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 13:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose loads of coverage. Chumpih ^t 13:44, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as per above. ISD (talk) 15:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose its a significant meme that took on a life of its own, and was given significant coverage by major, international, news outlets. In hard times you can either laugh or cry. Ceoil (talk) 18:49, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOMERGE point 3 - "the topic [is a] discrete subject [see above comment by Ceoil] warranting own article, [...] meeting the General Notability Guidelines, even if short." Willsteve2000 (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOMERGE points 2& 3. Nascar9919 (talk) 02:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose This articles’ creators made sure to include the “hook,” established the notability of this particular stunt/event, and the article is well referenced with reliable sources. Juneau Mike (talk) 02:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"The lettuce" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect The lettuce and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 23#The lettuce until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 12:58, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

New images

Hi, does anyone know if it is possible to upload more images of the lettuce to Commons, or would that be a copyright violation? Unlimitedlead (talk) 02:12, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, it's not possible (unless the Daily Star decided to donate images, but I wouldn't hold your breath). You can read the fair use rules here, but basically one per article, enough to allow people to know what something looks like if there's no alternative, and none on Commons. Blythwood (talk) 01:48, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Earlier origin of lettuce comparison

"Truss is like that bag of salad leaves you bought literally 2 days ago that is now some kind of black liquid" was posted to reddit by user /u/thedecibelkid on 9th October 2022 to a post on the UK Politics subreddit, two days before The Economist column. Could it be possible that whomever wrote that column frequents the site? https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/xz4ylu/comment/irmevnc/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.224.206.245 (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)