Talk:Daniel Wiffen

Nationality

People from N. Ireland are listed as that: cf. Rhys McClenaghan, another Irish Olympian. Wiffen's dual nationality and representing Ireland and N. Ireland are well portrayed in the article Billsmith60 (talk) 23:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

If Wiffen's nationality was not Irish, he wouldn't be representing Ireland. He would be representing Great Britain which NI athletes by default are supposed to represent (unless they willingly opt for Ireland instead). I've added a citation which is Daniel's Silver Hatch Sports profile that clearly identifies him as an Irish swimmer. Daniel himself links this on his own Twitter while also placing his location as simply Ireland. Daniel has made his Irishness very clear. Only you seem to have a problem with this.

Stevenbfg (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

As I said – and being Irish myself, like Daniel – Wikipedia's policy is to "identify" him as being from Northern Ireland. Thats where he was brought up, like Rhys McClenaghan. The article clearly states that he represents both Ireland and N. Ireland and has dual nationality. Leave it alone, please, and don't be engaging in personal attacks. Assume good faith. I have reverted your changes. Regards Billsmith60 (talk) 10:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Michael Conlan has also represented Northern Ireland at the commonwealth games so that means nothing. Ireland don't compete at the commonwealth games so the choice is to either represent NI or not go at all. There is no "dual nationality" here. He has chosen Irish over British by virtue of picking Ireland over GB AND NORTHERN IRELAND, and literally directs you to his Silver Hatch Profile to tell you he's Irish, as is his right under the GFA. I've reverted again and if you want to take this further, go ahead.

Stevenbfg (talk) 03:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's policies as noted above. Why are you reverting without further input from other people? I've reverted you until the matter is resolved by consensus Billsmith60 (talk) 12:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I've asked for additional opinions Billsmith60 (talk) 13:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I think you asked in the wrong place. The Conflict of interest/Noticeboard (COIN) page is for determining whether a specific editor has a conflict of interest (COI) for a specific article and whether an edit by a COIN-declared COI editor meets a requirement of the Conflict of Interest guideline. For content disputes, after proposing changes at the article talk page, follow the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution procedural policy. -- Pemilligan (talk) 14:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

So, Looking at some other pages involving people born in/living in northern ireland, it seems to be "Irish [person], OR "[person] from northern island", with their profession. Amy Broadhurst Barry McGuigan Paddy Jackson Robbie Millar Per WP:UKNATIONALS, the policy is to decide it on a case by case basis, as there is no consensus on how it should be applied to people from the UK. As for essay portion on the relevant discussion - the following points I read, and agreed with, and found relevant to this dispute. No variation is particular to any one nationality. Individuals may identify more closely with being "British" or with being "English", "Irish, "Northern Irish", "Scottish" or "Welsh", for example (see British people § Classification) Since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, people of Northern Ireland may identify and be accepted as British or Irish, or both, and to hold both British and Irish citizenship. It also says It is not possible to create a uniforming guideline, when such strong disagreement exists on the relative importance of the labels. Re-labelling nationalities on grounds of consistency—making every UK citizen "British", or converting each of those labelled "British" into their constituent nationalities—is strongly discouraged. Such imposed uniformity cannot, in any case, be sustained. While this is not British per se, the reasoning still applies. Post a message asking for advice or assistance on the talk page, and/or on relevant WikiProjects and notice boards. When an idea of nationality exists, consider deferring to that view It seems clear enough to me that the subject of the article identifies as Irish, but I would not say its wrong to describe him as being from northern Ireland. So, as an adjective, "He is an Irish person", as a background, "He is from northern Ireland." DarmaniLink (talk) 06:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'll adjust the article accordingly if not already done Billsmith60 (talk) 18:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Daniel's nationality

Ultimately, his nationality is unclear. He plays for Team Ireland, yes, but he also plays for Northern Ireland in the Commonwealth Games. He possesses both British and Irish nationalities, and, more importantly, hasn't explicitly renounced his British nationality. It's also worth noting that many athletes just go for the team they think will be easiest to qualify. Team Ireland is easier to get into than Team GB. To avoid further disputes, simply referring to him as "from Northern Ireland" is the best course of action. Suo Edits (talk) 21:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe the style guide states that it is worth mentioning both nationalities if they have done notable things in each country which he has. MightyPoof (talk) 01:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Please see the previous discussion above about his nationality. Do not change it back from Irish Billsmith60 (talk) 10:39, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

You are incorrect – see previous Talk discussion above Billsmith60 (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

What difference does it make, where he was born; the fact is he represents Ireland and that is all that matters. 2001:BB6:6E7C:D500:48DF:C046:EE2B:74CE (talk) 18:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

If you read my comment you’d realise that he represents both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland not just Ireland (ROI). MightyPoof (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, he also represents Northern Ireland at the Commonwealth Games. But, to many, Northern Ireland is Ireland, so in a sense he represents Ireland north and south. I don't think there is any question about his allegiance to Ireland. He identifies as being Irish. 2001:BB6:6E7C:D500:48DF:C046:EE2B:74CE (talk) 20:50, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Refrain from getting political. The Republic of Ireland is officially known as ‘Ireland’ so no, officially Northern Ireland is not ‘Ireland’. He represents Northern Ireland and Ireland so it should be reflected as such because they are not officially or legally the same. You can identify as being Irish as in from the Island of Ireland and not from Ireland, the country. MightyPoof (talk) 21:01, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

From what I have looked into, (disagreeing with my original message here, after reading more input from other contributors) Wiffen identifies as Irish. As someone from Northern Ireland myself, who identifies as *just Irish*, playing for Northern Ireland doesn't mean you hold that identity, as you're claiming it does. Suo Edits (talk) 21:19, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Representing NI at the Commonwealth Games is what looks like a form of "identifying as Northern Irish", as clearly Ireland's not in the Commonwealth and Irish sportspeople are not otherwise eligible to take part. Of course, "identifies as" is a slippery concept, and is explicitly different from the legal situation of citizenship, so even that's not clearcut. (If his legal nationality is clear either! Which on the face of it, it's not really either.) So if he wishes to "identify" as someone who's not Northern Irish but who competes as if he were, that's not something that can be litigated against him. But clearly his own statements and who he chooses to represent for FINA purposes are of the greatest overall significance, and the fact of NI representation secondary. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 03:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

County

There seems to be some discussion whether he is from County Down or County Armagh. See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2gxrqnezlo 2A00:23C6:1492:7A01:579:1372:3B34:656C (talk) 11:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Why? Magheralin is in Co. Down. Billsmith60 (talk) 12:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't claim to understand what's going on with this, but his parents say Co. Armagh https://x.com/tweetceebee/status/1818400865184555254 149.171.172.229 (talk) 12:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, can you copy here what's on that Twitter post? Many thanks Billsmith60 (talk) 13:34, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: see my revision to the Down v Armagh bit Billsmith60 (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)