Talk:Dave Carter

Consistency

The sources seem to refer to Dave Carter as "he", but the article goes back and forth between "he" and "she". I'm not sure what Carter would have preferred as I never heard of this person before. It's confusing that all of the direct quotes say "he" but then the article says "she". Thoughts? Better sources? —PermStrump(talk) 08:27, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

As the surviving partner of this musical and romantic partnership, I believe it is important that we honor the transition in progress, which has been done quite lovingly. But I would like to suggest that since Dave Carter never had the privilege of introducing his transgender identity to the world, we not take it upon ourselves to do it posthumously. He did not arrive, as it were, at his destination. And the feminine was yet without a name. Indeed, she is without a history of any kind, professionally speaking, as Dave presented male for the duration of his career. Let's let the record stand. Tracygrammer (User talk:Tracygrammer) 17:41, 24 October 2016 (UTC)"Tracygrammer"

2020

Someone has put "her" for "Dave" Carter and it is confusing as hell, from the very second sentence, even to someone who knows about his transition. (It reads as though it suddenly switched to Tracy Grammer.) I'm not changing it only because I don't want to go through the whole article and I don't want to play in the anticipated edit war, but it is a poor decision, and contrary to what Tracygrammer has recommended. I hope someone will change this back so ordinary readers can understand what's being said. Zaslav (talk) 23:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Upfront, this is not a subject in which I have any experience, so I don't know what the policies/guidelines are – following is just my own opinion as a somewhat experienced editor. Running into the "she" pronoun in the lead is just plain confusing, and gets more confusing as one reads on. That totally distracts from the content of the article, which should not happen. The insertion of the "[s]" in front of "he" in quotes is also distracting. Assuming the Dave Carter#Transgender identity section is accurate (which, AGF, agrees with Tracy's account above), I think the article should use the pronoun "he" consistently and quotes should be reverted to their published form. The topic and timeline of the potential/pending transition is well-explained in that section – there's no reason to effectively contradict it by using the wrong pronoun in the rest of the article. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 18:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• To clarify, the distraction is because of there being no mention of the gender transition until much later in the article, which is understandable, given the timeline expressed. I'm not trying to say that the distraction alone is an inconvenience that we shouldn't be forced to deal with – just that it's distracting because it's unexplained and looks like a mistake (which turns out to be true in this case). As a WikiGnome, I might be more distracted than others. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 19:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• First and foremost, Wikipedia is all about reliable sources. Are there any reliable sources where they explicitly state that they identify as female? If not and taking into account their transition, I'd be leaning towards neutral pronouns of they, them, and their. However, are there any reliable sources where the subject states they are transitioning? I'm not saying those that have revealed the information are lying, but this issue surrounds self identity. From reading the above comments I presume there are no reliable sources where they state they were in the process of transitioning or that they identify as female, so the pronouns used should be male. – ².O.^Boxing 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
• MOS:GENDERID says:

Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article.
Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary)

Thus if the use of female pronouns (she) is to remain, an explanation should be added early in the article. If, however, there is no reliable source in which Carter expressed a female identity, or an intention to assume one, female pronouns should not be used. In thqt case I think that Squared.Circle.Boxing is correct and male pronouns should be used. Tracygrammer, do you kn ow of any reliable sources not already cited in the article that bear on this issue? Does anyone else? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 22:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

So this issue has now been open (this time) for 2 months and I see no argument or sources to support retention of the "she" pronouns. Last call for objections (including procedural) before I revert the edit that did it (and then reapply the later fixes)? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 17:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done Pinging Tracygrammer. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 19:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me. I've spoken with Dave's sister, Elise Fischer, on the matter of the tug-of-war over re-gendering Dave Carter posthumously in Wikipedia. We agree the he/him/his should stand, given that David expressed as male, personally and professionally, up until his death. He had not spoken of the transition publicly. Tracygrammer (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

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