Talk:Dead Man's Chest

"Legend has it that the rhyme tells the tale of a time when Edward Teach, also known as Blackbeard..." This is poppycock, as there is no such "legend" about this literary "sea shanty", which made it first appearance in Stevenson's book. This article needs thorough overhauling to be real. --Wetman 7 July 2005 22:50 (UTC)

Skip Henderson

I agree that the info about Skip Henderson is marginal, but it is all we have -- I am unable to find any other source. It is certainly appropriate to mention "professional amateur" researchers on Wikipedia under some circumstances (unless you suspect Skip is lying or biased?), in particular in areas that have probably never been looked at by professionals. No matter what, it is a hundred times better than just saying "according to legend" which is about as non-encyclopedic as it gets (see comment above, Wetman even gives out annual bobo prizes for "legend" wiki articles). If we only have a single source it should be used, even if it is from a professional amateur. If you can find a better source please do so. -- Stbalbach 12:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Dead Man's Chest Island

Just read this: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.174 (talk) 07:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to include this in the article, but the claim is highly suspect of being apocryphal, like so many other stories surrounding Treasure Island, people make up stories (and history) after the fact because it draws tourists and attention to their little corner of the world. I can't find a reliable source, they are all second hand. Until we get a reliable source - the actual article from Geographical magazine - I don't think it should be included. Big claims require big proof. Green Cardamom (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Cultural references

The below list was deleted by a user who left an edit note it is "trivia". I happen to disagree because cultural references are important for tracking the development of, well, culture. There is a University professor, a leading expert in the field, who tracks this stuff - good enough for him, but "trivia" for Wikipedia? I've re-added to the article the major/important ones in prose style, and re-posted the full list here. If you have more to add please do so here, or in article space only if its major/important and something meaningful can be said about it. Typically side mentions in a TV or comic or song are not good enough for article space, only if it is central to the work of art in question, such as named after it or a full reinterpretation. Green Cardamom (talk) 01:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• In 1891 poet Young E. Allison (1853-1932) expanded the original lines from the novel (minus the "one man alive" line) into a poem he named "Derelict" and published in the Louisville Courier-Journal.
• In 1901 music was added to the lyrics of "Derelict" for a Broadway rendition of Treasure Island.
• In the The Adventures of Tintin comic book The Secret of the Unicorn (Le secret de la Licorne), a drunken Captain Haddock sings the song while narrating to Tintin the encounter of his ancestor with the pirate Red Rackham.
• In 1947 sung by Bluto (as a pirate) in the cartoon "Popeye and the Pirates".
• Sea-Goin' Sam sings the song in the WB cartoon Buccaneer Bunny, segueing into a parody song about "Ma's Old-Fashioned Cider".
• The Adventures of Superman episode called The Golden Vulture includes the self-styled pirating singing the song ad nauseam, to the exasperation of the (captive) Lois and Jimmy.
• In 1967 writers for the Walt Disney film company found inspiration in "Derelict" for the sea-song "Yo Ho (A Pirate's Life for Me)" which was played in the "Pirates of the Caribbean" theme ride at Disneyland.
• Astrid Lindgren expanded Stevenson's couplet differently in the script for Pippi Longstocking (1969 TV series). The two resulting verses were sung to a West Indian sea shanty.
• The song is used to comic effect in the 1978 film Revenge of the Pink Panther. Inspector Clouseau (Peter Sellers) is disguised as a pirate, and, as usual, bungles every aspect of it: his parrot is an inflatable one that spontaneously deflates several times, and he is unable to walk on his faux-peg leg without falling down. In addition, he tries to sing the song but mixes up the words; the song as he sings it reads: "Sixteen chests on a dead man's rum, yo-ho-ho and a bottle of the chest."
• Tom Waits's 1985 album Rain Dogs contains the lyric "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest" and other piratical and sailorly phrases.
• The Beastie Boys use the phrase "16 men on a dead man's chest" in their song "Rhymin & Stealin" from the Licensed to Ill Album, 1986.
• Alan Moore made a play on the song in the 1986 graphic novel Watchmen. In a story-within-a-story, the main character, the only survivor of a ship waylaid by pirates in the open waters, must strap the carcasses of his crew together to form a raft. The chapter is called "One man on fifteen dead men's chests."
• In the 1997 video game Curse of Monkey Island, a chapter in a pamphlet of motivational pirate literature is entitled "How to Get More Than Fifteen Men on a Dead Man's Chest." Also, the first time Guybrush boards the Sea Cucumber, Mr. Fossey can be heard singing the beginning of Dead Man's Chest before he appears.
• In 2000 the contemporary "pirate" vocal group The Jolly Rogers recorded Mark Stahl's arrangement of Young E. Alison's lyrics on their CD titled "Pirate Gold." This arrangement has become so commonplace in the renaissance faire and pirate reenactor circuits it is erroneously regarded as "traditional."
• In a first season episode of American television series "Sports Night" it is one possible song suggested by Josh Charles's character Dan Rydell as a possible replacement for Happy Birthday that is suitable to be sung on the air to Robert Guillaume's character, Isaac Jaffe.
• The Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode Time Chasers features a riff by Mike Nelson: "Fifteen men on a dead Dodge Dart!"
• In German, the song is known as "17 Männer auf des Totenmanns Kiste", so it mentions 2 more men.
• In Michael Ende's Jim Button and Luke the Engine Driver and its sequel, the song is changed again to "13 men sitting on a coffin".
• In the Klasky-Csupo/Nickelodeon Movies/Paramount Pictures film The Rugrats Movie, a parody of the song is sung by Tommy, Phil and Lil, and Chuckie.
• The reggae band The Gladiators use the lyrics "Sixteen men on a dead man's chest" in their 1978 song "Jah O Jah O" (cover of The Viceroys' "Ya Ho").
• Jack Peñate used the phrase "Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of Rum" in one of his verses in his song "Got My Favourite..." from his album "Matinee"
• In the George MacDonald Fraser novel The Pyrates, the Dead Man's Chest is a small island. There two prisoners would be blindfolded and given a sword, and forced to fight to death - the winner would get a small boat and provisions to escape.
• In the film Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, the chest that contains the heart of Davy Jones is referred to as the "Dead Man's Chest". Joshamee Gibbs also sings the first two lines of the song.
• In Method Man's song "Judgement Day", the phrase "16 men on a dead man's chest" appears in the chorus.
• The Hungarian translation of Treasure Island has the phrase as "seven (men) on a dead man's chest", apparently this number provided the closest effect to the original regarding rhyme and syllables.
• In the 1994 animated movie The Pagemaster, Long John Silver Sings the first two lines of the first verse after departing in a boat from treasure island.

Re: Jolly Rogers' rendition...

The CD "Pirates Gold," featuring this song under the title of "The Derelict," was released in 1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jolly_Rogers). This CD is an anthology of music from four earlier tapes by the band, released between 1992 and 1995, all of which are out of print. "The Derelict" originally appeared on their 1993 release, "Where The Hell Are We?"

When they decided to include it on that release, only the first four lines of each verse were known by them to have a melody line, so their guitarist, Mark Stahl, wrote melody for the last seven lines of each verse in Summer 1993.

Okay, so I am that guitarist. I just wanted to clarify a few of the facts about our version of the song. If someone insists on a citation, the best I can do is post a scan of the J-card from the original cassette. But I will be happy to do it if necessary.

Mesniu (talk) 03:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the problem is in this sentence:

"this arrangement has become so commonplace in the renaissance faire and pirate reenactor circuits it is erroneously regarded as "traditional." "

It sounds like one persons casual opinion. That's why the citation needed tag was there. What we need is more solid information about the songs significance among these groups. Green Cardamom (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I can understand why that would seem to be one persons casual opinion. And, I'm not trying to start any flame wars over this. I did not write the phrase "it is erroneously regarded as 'traditional,' " but I have seen it in action. On the renaissance festival circuit, I have seen at least two other groups performing it, both of which thought it was traditional. Disney didn't help with this; in one of their DVD releases of POTC2, which included a CD of pirate songs (NOT the compilation Johnny Depp put together) listing the song (words AND music) as traditional. I don't have the financial resources to fight the Mouse over this, and I'm not looking for any remuneration (but their recognition of my contribution to the song would be nice). It's hard to give citation to empirical evidence. All you can do is give testimony.

Mesniu (talk) 12:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Man considering how much Disney sues others for infringement, you should go after Mickey, they don't deserve a break. Anyway, unless it's possible to verify (see WP:V) it probably shouldn't be on Wikipedia. There may be another way to approach the popularity of the song that can be verified. The "mistaken tradition" thing (fakelore) is pretty much universal with the song, poem etc.. people even think Stevenson's original version in Treasure Island is taken from some older source (see Dead Chest Island, British Virgin Islands for more). Green Cardamom (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"sea shanty"

A shanty is a work song. Even in fiction, I don't think this was a shanty, so the "fictional sea shanty" doesn't make sense IMO. It was just a "song". I understand one of the points of the footnote is to say that the song was presented as "traditional" in the story, and that later it became a "real" "traditional song" of a sort, at least as it was perceived by some. However this still doesn't make it a shanty--that's misleading. What am I missing?DrBaldhead (talk) 23:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's a matter of interpretation if it was a sea shanty. Work songs are just songs sung while working, they don't have to be "about" work, just sung in the course of work, and since the pirates were often singing the song (and we presume also often working), one could make the case. But since this is Wikipedia.. here's some sources:

"Dead Man's Chest" is a fragment of a sea shanty.." (from Treasure Island Comprehension Guide, pg.26)

"..he got the 'Dead Man's Chest', part of that most famous refrain from the pirate sea shanty, out of Kingsley's At Last.." (from Introduction, Treasure Island by Wendy Roberta Katz, pg. xxxii)

There's actually dozens of sources on Google Books calling it a sea shanty. None are authoritative of course, but it shows there is a popular perception, which is reflected in the article. To not call it a sea shanty would require ignoring all these sources, unless there is an even more authoritative source that over-rides them, such as an academic paper by a Stevenson scholar. Green Cardamom (talk) 01:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

To continue.. I searched through the text of Treasure Island and Stevenson calls it both a "sea-song" and a "sailor's song". Our Wikipedia article for sea song says "another name for a sea shanty" but that's not authoritative.. I checked the Oxford English Dictionary for sea-song and it says: "A song such as is sung by sailors". For shanty it says "A sailor's song, esp. one sung during heavy work." No OED entry for sailor's song. Notably sea shanties typically have a chorus, since that helps keep rhythm with work, and Dead Man's Chest is a chorus song.

Since OED has an entry for sea-song, and that is exactly what Stevenson calls it, maybe we should just call it that, rather than trying to interpret it. But add a footnote with further info since there is some ambiguity and others do see it as a chantey. I'll adjust for review. Green Cardamom (talk) 01:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

This looks/sounds good to me. Thanks for looking into it! I respect your willingness to see the validity in people's use of terms in determining definitions (i.e. descriptive approach). I try to do the same. But in this case the only thing that supports calling this a "shanty" are the recent, non-authoritative (as you acknowledge) folks, which I think are misguided, and we'd be doing a disservice to adopt their error. The whole point of calling something a "shanty" instead of just calling it a "sea song" (or even just a "song") is to designate it as not something of the *sea* but rather as something that at any point was associated with *work*. So in this case it is safe to call it a "sea song" -- which, if one wishes, could also encompass the subcategory of "shanties" without it making it necessarily so.DrBaldhead (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, good catch noticing that distinction. Green Cardamom (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

read chapter ten again: when they weigh anchor on Hispanioala on leaving Bristol, :"Aye, aye, mates," said Long John, who was standing by, with his crutch under his arm, and at once broke out in the air and words I knew so well: "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest—" And then the whole crew bore chorus:— "Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!" And at the third "Ho!" drove the bars before them with a will. A work song, fitting the definition of Shanty. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

German version

Where does it say that in Germany, it is called "17 Mann auf....", because I'm from Germany and I, everyone I know who knows the song and a lot of people on YouTube say, it is known as "Fuffzehn Mann auf..." (Fuffzehn is dialect for Fünfzehn which are 15). If I'm wrong than correct me but there is no reference for the 17 so I'm just wondering. 79.225.129.113 (talk) 03:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

There are examples of 17: 17 Mann auf des toten Mannes Kiste. Stalin-17 Mann auf des Totenmannskiste. In the Treasure Island - 1966 - Theme, one of the comments says this song was sung der chor aus prag and the accent sounds like 17? 17 seems to exist, but 15 men exists, too, 15 Mann auf des Toten Manns Kiste. Green Cardamom (talk) 04:52, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

What does "chest" mean?

In this song, does the word "chest" refer to the thorax or a means of storage? The article doesn't clarify. Trogyssy (talk) 20:53, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Stevenson never makes totally clear. "Dead Man's Chest" is the name of the island that inspired the song, so "15 men on the dead man's chest" would presumably mean on the island itself. Is the best evidence available, but it's like speculating what a song lyric means, or what a painting means, it's partly up to you. -- GreenC 22:42, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I always thought of Billy Bones' chest and the men hunting him down. Maybe Stevenson developed several elements out of this song.--183.182.120.203 (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Astrid Lindgren's version/Swedish pop culture

The article makes references to Astrid Lindgren's adaption of the song, and the deleted pop culture section included on the talk page also makes mention of it being set to the tune of a sea shanty. Pippi Longstocking and other pop culture renditions of the song in Sweden are set to the melody of The Last Rose of Summer (known in Sweden as "Sommarens sista ros"), an Irish traditional melody and not a sea shanty.