Talk:Death and funeral of Babe Ruth

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst talk 03:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Life Magazine said Babe Ruth's funeral was the "kind of tribute normally reserved for kings and presidents"? Source: when when the Yankee slugger died from cancer at the age of 53, he received the kind of tribute normally reserved for kings and presidents. His funeral was a multi-day, multi-site affair,
  • ALT1: ... that The Brooklyn Daily Eagle said Babe Ruth's funeral attracted 180,000 people? Source: [Headline: 180,000 Brave Rain as Rites Are Held for Babe Ruth https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-brooklyn-daily-eagle-180000-brave-r/140446175/] T
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Laguna Honda Hospital
  • Comment: Extra QPQ for backlog Template:Did you know nominations/Nick Whiteside
    The funeral took place over three days and reports say 100,000 saw his body while it was displayed at Yankee Stadium and 80,000 came to the St. Patrick's cathedral. This does not even mention the reports of tens of thousands who came to Gate of Heaven Cemetery.

Moved to mainspace by Bruxton (talk). Self-nominated at 03:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Death and funeral of Babe Ruth; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I'll review this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Everything looks good. Two QPQs are done. Prefer original hook, but either works. Appears good to go! Nice work. BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Death and funeral of Babe Ruth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Bruxton (talk · contribs) 14:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 23:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• Y Given that "Babe Ruth was one of the original cohort of cancer patients who were treated with combinations of chemotherapy and radiation" (PBS 2014) and that you mention this in the illness and death section, it does seem appropriate to acknowledge this surprising fact in the lead. Just my opinion. Viriditas (talk) 03:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Illness and death

• Treatments over the next year-and-a-half proved to be ineffective, with Ruth slowly and notably withering

• Y Given the rule of hyphens, I don't think they are needed here. You can also say eighteen or 18 months if you so choose, depending on which style you prefer to use ("words or figures may be used with unit names"). Viriditas (talk) 04:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Funeral

Yankee Stadium

• Babe Ruth played for the New York Yankees from 1920 to 1934 and was regarded as one of the greatest baseball players

• Y It seems weird to see his name linked for the first time only half-way down, buried in the body, but I can see why you did it that way. Viriditas (talk) 04:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

St. Patrick's Cathedral

• The Brooklyn Daily Eagle ran the headline, "180,000 Brave Rain as Rites Are Held for Babe Ruth" on August 19, 1948. They reported that thousands of people braved the rain to honor Babe Ruth.

• Y That's a bit redundant, don't you think? Either report the headline in the first sentence or describe it in the second one, but not both. Unless you can figure out a way to change it around and add different material. Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Other sources

Just want to throw this out there:

• Acknowledgment of Ruth's having nasopharyngeal cancer was made in 1987 by Thomas et al., who associated its development with his use of tobacco and alcohol. Both tobacco and alcohol are not usually considered risk factors for the most common histologic class of nasopharyngeal cancer, the lymphoepithelioma, which is seen most commonly in Asians and is associated with Epstein-Barr virus. The data are less clear for Caucasians and for patients with the other histologic classes of nasopharyngeal cancer. Some investigators have shown increased risk of nasopharyngeal cancer in Caucasians using excessive amounts of cigarettes or alcohol. It is well known that Ruth had frequently used snuff in earlier years, so much at one time that he often had it caught in the back of his nose. It remains uncertain, however, if his use of snuff, tobacco, or alcohol led to his development of nasopharyngeal cancer.

• This is an older source from 1999 doi:10.1097/00005537-199901000-00001. At the time, there was quite a bit of discussion about Babe Ruth's death, particularly beginning in the late 1980s when the medical community began to actively reevaluate it after Thomas et al. 1987 attributed it to tobacco and alcohol. As this controversy took place before the tobacco settlement in the 1990s, there was some heated pushback in the literature from the 1980s until the 1990s. In 1998, physician Nadim B. Bikhazi received permission to study the autopsy report. The NYT reported at the time that "While there is no evidence that tobacco killed him, Dr. Bikhazi said it probably played a part." Since that time, the evidence for an association with tobacco use has grown larger, while the association with alcohol has grown weaker (See for example Chang & Adami 2006). Although given the distortion of the medical literature by tobacco industry insiders from the 1950s until the 1990s, one should rely on the most current evidence for any claims about Ruth, tobacco, and cancer. Putting Ruth aside for just a moment, the World Cancer Research Journal published a current list of risk factors in 2018.[1] It lists tobacco smoke as a weak to moderate risk factor for nasopharyngeal cancer, with a stronger association for type I NPC. It further states "Many studies have highlighted that cigarette smoking is associated with nasopharyngeal cancers. The pattern of the relationship between smoking and the risk of nasopharyngeal cancer is dose-dependent. The results of a meta-analysis showed that the risk of the cancer in smokers was 60% higher than non-smokers." Viriditas (talk) 00:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Note, Maloney et al. 2008 ("A Comprehensive Analysis of Babe Ruth's Head and Neck Cancer") is already used in this article. It speaks to the risks of alcohol and tobacco use on pages 927, 928, and 931. I will add the content here in case the nominator decides to use it in the article:

• "As a youngster, George started to use tobacco and drink alcohol. He once said, "I learned early to drink beer, wine, whiskey, and I think I was about five when I first chewed tobacco." p. 927. Note: this age is reported differently in other sources, so it is not exactly clear which one is correct.
• "Throughout the summer of 1946, Ruth experienced intense left retro-orbital pain. In September of that year, Ruth was admitted to French Hospital in New York City. At this point, the entire left side of his face was swollen, and his left eye was completely closed. The physicians diagnosed his condition as either toothache or sinusitis. Treatment consisted of penicillin and the extraction of three teeth.5 This treatment provided no relief, and in November physicians at French Hospital diagnosed his condition as Horner syndrome when a radiograph revealed a large mass at the base of his skull extending from the foramen ovale to the jugular foramen. Radiation therapy (RT) was administered without further diagnostic work-up. As Ruth had a history of heavy alcohol and tobacco (cigars and snuff) consumption, his physicians made a diagnosis of laryngeal carcinoma." p. 927. Note: it is not clear if this is the opinion of Maloney et al. 2008 or of Ruth's initial physicians.
• "Inhaled carcinogens—including fumes, smoke and chemicals in areas with poor ventilation— may be an important risk factor for development of NPC. A history of disease of the ear, nose and throat may be associated with an increased risk of developing NPC. In the United States, among whites, smoking and alcohol use generally have not been implicated as risk factors; however, there may be an association, and further research is needed." p. 928. Note: this claim that "further research is needed" appears throughout the literature. Since this article is from 2008, it is not clear if further research has indeed occurred since that time. See for example the link to the World Cancer Research Journal 2018 article up above.
• "Advanced NPC mimics symptoms of temporomandibular disorders (TMDs) and laryngeal carcinoma. Both Babe Ruth’s physician and the public thought that he had laryngeal carcinoma, as evidenced by his symptom of hoarseness, due to tobacco use (in the form of cigars, chewing tobacco and snuff) and to heavy alcohol consumption. While tobacco and alcohol use have not been considered to be risk factors for NPC in Asian populations, their role in NPC is far less understood for white populations." p. 931.

Criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Minor issues detailed in the above section.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section):

   b (inline citations to reliable sources):

   c (OR):

   d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   (source spot-check done):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects):

   No mention or discussion of what led to his cancer, which is covered in many different sources. These explanations range from his lifelong use of tobacco, either in chewing, snuff, or cigar form (he used it for more than 40 years); his penchant for liquor; and his overdose on silver nitrate during the 1918 flu pandemic.

   There's also some interesting sources about how Ruth's cancer was reevaluated in the 1980s by the medical community. This was covered by the medical journals and the popular press, such as the NYT. There's also some discussion about his autopsy results.

   b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Article is stable.

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images and captions look good.

7. Overall: I have passed the article based on recent edits that address the majority of my concerns. In related news, I have opened a discussion on the talk page of the parent article discussing the potential for adding additional content about tobacco, alcohol, etc. I hope that you consider that material for this article as well. Viriditas (talk) 23:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

   Pass/Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.