Talk:Death of Edgar Allan Poe

Title

Best. Article Title. Evah. (Well, at least for today. :) ) Avt tor 16:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, thank you... it was a fairly obvious one. Midnightdreary 14:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Alcoholism theory

The theory of Poe's alcoholism, both as cause of death and throughout his life, is being disputed and is beginning to be dismissed. Poe had a severe weakness to alcohol and became drunk even after one glass of wine. Poe has gone several months at a time without alcohol and seemed to have no attachment to it. According to this theory, the only reason Poe drank was because of unfortunate events in his life, which there seemed to be no end.

I removed the above addition because it desperately needs citations for it to be useful here. I'm certainly not saying it's not true, but "this theory" could be made by a second grader, for all I know. I suspect weasel words. But, if a source is found, it can be re-added. I'm also adding this to the talk page of the user who added it. Midnightdreary 19:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Image moving

I moved the images around a bit for a couple reasons. First, his portrait is great, but it's also the first picture on the main Edgar Allan Poe and I think we need to differentiate. It's also his grave, which makes sense as a main image on a Death of Edgar Allan Poe page. Also, the image of the large memorial was next to the Poe Toaster section which may be a bad move - I'm not 100% sure, but I thought the Toaster visited his original grave. Lacking full info, I'm leaving that section image-less. Midnightdreary 17:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if anyone is interested, we did resolve the question of which grave the Poe Toaster visits. Check out the Talk:Poe Toaster page. --Midnightdreary 13:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Featured article!

How do we nominate this for featured article? I think this is a pretty slick article! Then again, I'm pretty biased. :) Midnightdreary 01:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's too short for Featured Article - but it could be nominated for Good Article. They might think the 'Character assassination' section is a bit biased, though, as if the article is calling Griswold a meanie. -Malkinann 08:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, if the shoe fits... I'll get some sources that give a little more info on Griswold, maybe? There's a great quote I found once, along the lines of, "Griswold will one day be known only for those he has insulted." Midnightdreary 16:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

As a side note, by the way, feel free to take a look at the article for Rufus Wilmot Griswold. I did a lot of work on that page too. Midnightdreary 05:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Length/Organization

Well, I've done some significant edits today and I'm holding myself back from more. I think this article is long enough as it is, considering it's just one event. BUT, I was wondering if people thought the organization was clear or if work needed to be done? It seems strange, for example, that Cause of Death breaks apart the Chronology and Funeral sections - I almost want to add the funeral and reburial sections as as subsection under chronology. I think, and I could be wrong here, most people are coming to this page to read about the theories, not the step-by-step chronology. Thoughts?? -Midnightdreary 19:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of the citations need work, esp. the eapoe.org citations - see WP:CITE#Full citations for more information on what 's needed for a 'full' citation. Additionally, for GA, each direct quote will need a direct citation, I'm thinking of the section on the obituary here. "By then, however, Griswold's depiction of Poe was entrenched in the mind of the public, not only in America but around the world. Griswold's madman image of Poe is still existent in the modern perceptions of the man himself." - this assertion needs a citation or two. You may need to add a citation to the Poe Toaster section as well. -Malkinann 00:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

It's funny you mention those couple lines; I hate 'em, and was really close to ripping them out entirely earlier this week. If I can't find a good citation for it, I'll probably just yank 'em. I'll do what I can on those eapoe.org links (or someone else, really, can jump right in... seriously, go for it!). Anyway, thanks for the response. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a deserted island tossing out messages in a bottle on here. -Midnightdreary 00:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I've asked at the help desk Wikipedia:Help_desk#Citing_republished_material for assistance with the eapoe.org citations. If you can't find a citation for those two lines, then we really should yank them. No worries - I wouldn't consider myself a Poe buff, though.-Malkinann 04:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for calling in the cavalry. There's plenty more in here that needs citations, so I'll work on all of it as I find it (I'm looking at the burial section and the cause of death section). -Midnightdreary 13:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Preparing for review

I want to prepare this article for peer review or possible good article review. So, I'm asking for help. I just went a little crazy with "citation needed" tags and a couple "original research?" tags. The more citations we have, the stronger this article will be. Also, I'm going to check what I have to make sure the sources already cited really do refer to what's stated in the article. Please, please, HELP! I would especially like to see a wider variety of sources, beyond Silverman's book, for example. Thanks! --Midnightdreary 17:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I can't be of much assistance with sourcing information for you. As long as Silverman's book isn't the only reliable source used, it should be alright for GA. -Malkinann 23:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Automated review

I found this little toy, and it might be useful in determining WP:MoS issues that may crop up during the Good Article candidacy. The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
• Consider adding more links to the article; per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and Wikipedia:Build the web, create links to relevant articles.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
• As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use ^th; for example, instead of using January 30^th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.^[?]
• There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
  • it has been
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).^[?]
• There may be an applicable infobox for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Biography, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City.^[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.^[?]
• This article is a bit too short, and therefore may not be as comprehensive as WP:WIAFA critera 1(b) is looking for. Please see if anything can be expanded upon.^[?]
• The article will need references. See WP:CITE and WP:V for more information.^[?]
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Malkinann 23:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This is great - thanks for putting it here! I'm horrible at intros and I know this one needs some work, so I'd love someone else to take care of that. Let me compile some more sources to get rid of all these tags; maybe by Wednesday we can reassess where we are at here. --Midnightdreary 00:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll give the lead a shot - essentially I gather it should be about the same as the summary in the main article. Do you have access to Meyers, Jeffrey: Edgar Allan Poe: His Life and Legacy. Cooper Square Press, 1992 ? It's cited in the main article as being the source of Poe's deathbed cry. -Malkinann 00:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The trick will be writing an introduction that properly introduces the rest of the article. It should at least mention the re-burial, Griswold, and the Poe-Toaster, I think. --Midnightdreary 15:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe the long quote describing the exhumation to be from "Scarlett, Charles, Jr., "Tale of Ratiocination: The Death and Burial of Edgar Allan Poe," Maryland Historical Magazine, (1978), 360-374." but I cannot access it - does anyone have access to this article? -Malkinann 00:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't find it online, but I've found it referenced elsewhere a few times. I do, however, have the Meyers biography, which you asked about above. Sorry I didn't mention it before. :) By the way, are you good at reference formatting? I think it'd be easier to read here if we follow what was done at "The Raven" but I'm no good at all that. --Midnightdreary 12:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the only requirements for reference formatting are that they be consistent, and as complete as possible (author, year, publisher, ISBN/DOI, accessed date for Internet articles) - unfortunately I won't be able to do any more on Wikipedia until at least Tuesday.. You might like to think about the merits of [www.google.com Republished at the EAP society] vs (also available online) vs [www.google.com This is a Edgar Allan Poe article] in the meantime, and consider converting duplicate cites to a <ref name = "name of ref"> <ref name = "name of ref"/> format - this is explained more in WP:FOOT. -Malkinann 13:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Peer review

I've put this article up for Peer Review, so any interested editors feel free to keep an eye on any comments that come in (wikilink is at the top of this talk page). Hopefully we can get some good advice and send this article over to Good Article review soon! I should also say, this has been one of the greatest collaborative efforts I've been involved with here on Wikipedia (sure, it's come in ebbs and flows but overall it's been great), so thanks to everyone! --Midnightdreary 03:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Neilson Poe

Unless Poe has two cousins named Neilson and Nielson, there is an inconsistency in the spelling of the name in the article. Source count in book and link searches favors Neilson, though some books do list as Nielson. Michael Devore 21:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Good catch on that one! My sources all seem to go with "Neilson" after a cursory check. I'm just going to spell it that way consistently. If we're wrong, at least we're stubborn about it! :) --Midnightdreary 01:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

GA review (on hold)

I can only describe this article as almost niquel

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• The lead needs to have references just like the rest of the article. (see: WP:LEAD#Citations in the lead section)
• In "Chronology"s second paragraph you have a very long quote that gets off the main subject. It could be summerized very easily, leaving only the first part of the quote, then adding something like he descrived Poe's eyes as "lusterless and vacant". And then removing the whole clothing description.(see: WP:QUOTE)
• Repetition, repetition. Poe, Poe, Moran, Moran. I changed a few, but please rephrase and change for "him" or "he", so as to have one Moran every two sentences:"Dr. Moran claims he attempted to cheer him up in one of the few times he was awake. Moran told him he would soon be enjoying..." and this "Moran cared for Poe at the for-profit Washington College Hospital, Moran denied any visitors to Poe". It helps the article's flow when you are not re-reading the same word over and over.
• Something could be added to Poe's portrait caption, like the peer reviewer said. If you don't know the exact date "A portrait of E.A. Poe taken in the early 1840s" could work.
• EXTRA:In the absence of contemporary documentation (all surviving accounts are either incomplete or published years after the event; even Poe's death certificate, if one was ever made out, has been lost)[31] it is likely that the cause of Poe's death will never be known. This could be rephrased so as to eliminate the ().

I'll put it on hold for seven days, but as soon as you adress these i'll take another look. Yamanbaiia 23:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review! I've done some clean-up already - I totally agreed that those quotes of Poe's appearance were way too long. I've kept some of the clothing details because whether or not Poe was wearing his own clothes is an important question in this "legend." I cleaned up the repetition of Poe/Moran as much as I was comfortable with for now, but I'm concerned that excessive use of the pronoun "he" will make it unreadable or at least confusing. I'll work on adding some sources to the lead too, but even the link you provided said that citations are only needed for contentious or controversial info, so I'll try to keep it reasonably minimal. Anyway, thanks again! This article has been a great example of what Wiki-collaboration can accomplish! --Midnightdreary 03:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The only thing missing were the references in the lead. And because all the things in that section are already referenced in the main body, I copy and pasted. I am now passing the article. Thank you for so much hard work, this has been a pleasure. :) Yamanbaiia 19:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much, and I'm glad you enjoyed it!! Great work on adding those couple citations - I see another line or two in the lead that I may add citations to, but you picked all the same spots I would have gone for. Thanks again (and again to all the others that have taken part in the creation of this article!). --Midnightdreary 22:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Poe Toaster

Before there is a violation of the 3 revert rule, let's try to reach a concensus about the Poe Toaster section: keep it or get rid of it?

I vote for keep, especially since it is in that format that this article was approved for Good Article status. This is a drastic change and MUST be discussed BEFORE making such a big cut. --Midnightdreary 13:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep: It's relevant to the article. Yamanbaiia 13:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Remove: No relevance at all to Poe's death. The Poe Toaster is a prankster that puts notes about such things as American football & the Iraq war on Poe's grave once a year. This all started long after Poe's death. That much attention to such a trivial factoid makes the article unbalanced.Tomixdf 15:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

We might as well focus this discussion over at Talk:Edgar Allan Poe. Feel free to join in there! :) --Midnightdreary 22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Based on discussions at the main Poe article, it seems we'll be keeping the Poe Toaster over there. With that established, I'm okay with removing it from this article. I'll do so now. --Midnightdreary 02:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Alcoholism

I'm pretty well along in my copyediting of this interesting and well-written article. However, I've found more things to change in the "Cause of Death" section than in any other section thus far. Please double-check my changes; I don't always get things right. I have a question about one passage (already slightly altered by me) that I can't quite sort out. It says, "However, Poe's characterization as an alcoholic is disputed. Poe had a severe weakness to alcohol and became drunk even after one glass of wine; he sometimes went several months at a time without alcohol and seemed to have no attachment to it. According to this theory, the only reason Poe drank was because of unfortunate events in his life, of which there seemed to be no end." The final sentence here suggests that Poe drank endlessly because of unfortunate events in his life. This contradicts the idea that he had no drinking problem, and it doesn't seem to fit logically with the preceding sentences. A possible solution would be to omit mention of this "theory". If it's only the idea of one scholar and carries no particular weight, it would be good to leave it out. (I see that this question has already arisen on this page; my concern about the logic adds to the earlier concern about weak or limited support.) Finetooth (talk) 01:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see why it would be confusing. Frankly stated, Poe's alcoholism has probably been greatly exaggerated. The theory is that alcohol wasn't as significant a part of his life as has been imagined. It's quite heavily supported by many, many scholars and, conversely, opposed by many, many scholars. I'll see if I can clean up the section so it makes more sense. Thanks for all your great copy editing work, by the way - the article is much improved! --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Autobiography?

Thank you. I always hope to leave things better than I found them. I think your fixes have made the alcohol section much better. I have two more questions, this time about the "Character assassination". I'm thinking that the "Memoir" was presented as autobiography rather than biography. The word "forged" doesn't make sense unless Griswold was inventing things and attributing them to Poe. In other words, it appears that Griswold, at least in the "Memoir", was publishing fake autobiography rather than biography. A less important but related question is "Should 'Memoir' have a capital M?" Does the word refer to a chapter title, or is it meant as a general description? Finetooth (talk) 04:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not presented as autobiography. What was forged were letters that Griswold presented as being written by Poe... I thought that was fairly clear? I'll check on why there was a capital "M" on "Memoir" - there's definitely a standard method that Poe biographers and scholars present this. I think it's essentially the essay's title. Give me a day or so on that to find some kind of scholarly consensus. --Midnightdreary (talk) 05:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The confusion in my mind arises partly from the word "memoir" itself. The Wikipedia article Memoir defines it as a subclass of autobiography. If Griswold's "'full biography" and the "memoir" are identical, Griswold, the old meanie, was pretending that Poe had said all these scabrous things about himself. My question is, "Was the 'full biography' presented to the public as autobiography, or are the full biography and the memoir two separate things?"

"Memoir" is just the title of the piece, not necessarily its genre. In mid-19th century America, the term didn't mean what it means today (it really just meant a creatively-written biographical sketch), so don't let the term throw you. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

A suggestion

I noticed that someone earlier on this page had objected to the repetition of "Poe" every time you needed to mention the guy. The alternative was to use "he," which is often OK. In one place, though, the "he" is somewhat ambiguous: "He did not know what happened to his trunk of belongings that, incidentally, had been left behind at the Swan Tavern in Richmond." I wasn't sure whether this "he", which appears in the next to last sentence of "Chronology", meant Moran or Poe. I would suggest using "Poe" or "Moran" here rather than "he". The trick that I'm thinking of, though, would be to change the first sentence of the lead to read: "The death of Edgar Allan Poe, American poet, short-story writer, editor, and literary critic, on October 7, 1849, is clouded in mystery, and the cause of death is disputed." You could shorten that a bit if it seems too wordy, but long or short, such a phrase would then allow you to refer to Poe as "the author" or "the writer" or "the noted poet" here and there where it seemed needed and appropriate, instead of being stuck with only "Poe" or "he". Finetooth (talk) 05:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You know, that's not a bad idea at all... I'll get on that later today. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Done

I'm done with my copyedit, and I'll sign off on the LoCE form. However, I'll keep tabs on how things are going, and I'll be glad to answer questions or help otherwise. Working on this article was a pleasure. Finetooth (talk) 05:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Nicely done! Thanks for the help! --Midnightdreary (talk) 18:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Poe Was Not A Drunkard and May Have Been Poisoned?

It is interesting to note that the character assasination of E.A. Poe still perulates to this day, even though Griswold later recanted his alledged claims? In the early 1970's, I was a member of The Bronx County Historical Society, and a research volunteer to their research library. One of the volunteer research members was a Mr. John Piper, who was a Poe'fite bar none! One day we were discussing about E.A. Poe, when BCHS President at the time Prof. Lloyd Ultan walked in. He went to one of the locked researh cabinets, and presented two books and a document copy, One of these books was "Israfel", a biography of E.A. Poe, by Hervey Allan, and "In defence of Poe", by Dr. Moran. Both John and I began to see a different E.A. Poe coming up to the surface. Then Prof. Ultan presented us a document copy of a letter that was written by one of The Jesuit priest's that lived and taught at St. John's College (aka: Fordham University), saying that Poe was not a drunkard, but had moments of "The Frenzies" especially at being "alone" after the death of his beloved Virginia. It was also presented that Poe was welcomed numerious times to stay on the College campus.

Now... in my research on Dr. Moran's book, he noted that Poe was sent to "The Naval Ward" which was restricted to Military personnel only, so if Poe was brought in unknown in such a derelict state, then he would have been brought immediately to "The General Ward"? Another interesting fact in Moran's book, states that after the presentation of the monument in Baltimore, he observed Two Priest's lagging behind toward the end of the ceremony? He indentifies the older priest as a man of learning and poetic prose... or something like that?

In Hervey Allan's book, he discusses Poe at being a master of disguises, and had averted many times his observation of various events. Between these books and the letter, one might think that E.A. Poe was living a "double life", and may have survived his ordeal in Baltimore in 1849?

I have more to share;

Aedwardmoch (talk) 23:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 23:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

(Sigh) I'm sure you have plenty more to share, and you keep bringing up the exact same thing. This page is not meant for discussion. Please, publish your thoughts and theories in a credible journal, not on Wikipedia. Of course, I'll assume you'll do more research first and possibly write more coherently. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

"Israfel" The Life and Times of Edgar Allan Poe, By Hervey Allan, Originally Published 1926 by Farrar & Rinehart, Quote from Preface "...Israfel is not a 'fictionized biography'... 1934, Hervey Allan".

"In Defence of Poe" by Dr. Robert Moran, a residing physician at Washington Hospital, published 1875.

Both these published books are in the accepted archives of The Bronx County Historical Society Research Center Library. The BCHS is also the present residing overseer and caretakers of "The Poe Cottage", the last residence of Edgar Allan Poe and His Spouse, Virginia Clemm-Poe, in The Fordham Section of The Bronx. Can we agree to disagree, and let the "Wiki" (not you or I) deside that the article that you so defend is correct and/or needs revisement? Perhaps "Other Opinions" are needed here that are supportive in expanding the article(s) on Poe and related subject.

Thanks

Aedwardmoch (talk) 22:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 22:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is. I have read Hervey Allen's book (it is not even remotely obscure; I and any Poe scholar even in the early stages of their study will have heard of this) and used it as one of my background sources for my own publication on Poe. The one by "Robert Moran" does not exist (and I have confirmed that with the Bronx County Historical Society; I've mentioned before that the doctor's name is "John Joseph Moran" - just as it says in this very article). Double-check your facts. You also may want to double-check this article. It does already mention Griswold more than amply and also discusses his character assassination of Poe and the lies he spread. What exactly are you trying to add that is not already in this article? If you yourself have drawn your own conclusions from reading these books, your own research is considered original research and is therefore not admissible in this article. Let me know when I sound like a broken record. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

A Little Puzzeled

Shouldn't EVERYTHING about Edgar Allen Poe be on the main article about Edgar Allen Poe? Just a suggestion.

--Katliegh 23:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katliegh (talk • contribs)

Yes, it's all there already in the article on Edgar Allan Poe. However, because that article has already reached the maximum recommended size, a "forked" article was created to allow substantial detail to what would otherwise be only a small section in the article. --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Hair Test

I have modified the statement about the test of Poe's hair. It previously stated that it disproved various poisonings. This is untrue. The test merely shows that Poe did not have chronic exposure to various metals and toxins in the months to year preceding his death. It does not rule out acute exposure. Furthermore, this was a scientific test; science never proves anything (that is a foundation principle of science--it only disproves null hypothesis). In science, proof is only considered after repeated efforts to disprove. One test is not proof. Anyway, that's my reasoning for the change I made. If people disagree, I am certainly willing to discuss. Thanks.MorbidAnatomy (talk) 14:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

huh? (see quoted text)

In 1941, Arthur Hobson Quinn presented evidence that Griswold had forged and re-written a number of Poe's letters that were included in his "Memoir of the Author".[63] Even so, historians continued to use Griswold's depiction as a model for their own biographies of Poe, including W. H. Davenport in 1880, Thomas R. Slicer in 1909, and Augustus Hopkins Strong in 1916.

How dare those authors not do their research of findings up to 60 years later! I am thinking this paragraph has been accidentally mutilated. WookMuff (talk) 22:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see - in fact, I think the "even so" part refers to the "accurate biography" published in 1875. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Wrong year?

Poe had passed through Philadelphia in the winter of 1849 during a cholera epidemic. He got sick during his time in the city and wrote a letter to his aunt, Maria Clemm, saying that he may "have had the cholera, or spasms quite as bad".

Wasn't he lying in a grave during the winter of 1849? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.222.23 (talk) 20:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC) Changing this to "early 1984". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.150.222.23 (talk) 20:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Early "1849," you mean, not "1984." Winter includes January and February so, yes, this was accurate. --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Nonsensical statement in Cause of Death section

The last line of the second paragraph in the Cause of Death section reads:

"In a study of Poe, a psychologist suggested that Poe had dipsomania, a condition that causes frequent seizures that lead to excesses, often alcoholic, during which the victim cannot remember what has happened to him or her."

This sentence makes no sense at all. It seems to indicate that seizures cause a person to engage in "excesses" (?) or alcoholism and that these actions are accomplished during the seizure. Let me make this perfectly clear: seizures don't work like that. Dipsomania may lead to seizures and people who suffer from dipsomania do drink large quantities of alcohol. But dipsomania does not cause some form of seizure that leads to alcoholism. That being said, I don't have the original source that is referenced in the article, so I don't want to change sourced material. Does the original source actually contain the same nonsense that is currently in the article? Or does the source make more accurate statements that got "lost in translation" as they were incorporated into this article? If someone reading this has a copy of the reference material will you please check the source? Hopefully we can then make an edit that makes the "Cause..." section more coherent. Thanks. MorbidAnatomy (talk) 20:14, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Morbid. I think there's a word or two missing between "seizures" and "excesses." I'll have to go back to the source and see. --Midnightdreary (talk) 23:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Any particular reason for excluding Mackowiak?

This topic only came to my attention when reading the NY Times article on Lenin's death yesterday. In there, Philip A. Mackowiak, vice chairman of the University of Maryland’s school of medicine and organizer of the annual clinicopathological conferences focused on historical figures, is quoted as saying “Poe was a hopeless alcoholic {who] almost certainly died of delirium tremens.” Back in 1996, he he had agreed with Benitez that "rabies was the most likely cause of Poe's death, based on the available evidence", but (from the NY Times article) "he later did a much more comprehensive review of Poe’s medical records and concluded that Poe’s doctor had embellished Poe’s medical history". He dedicated a chapter on Poe in his 2007 book Post Mortem: Solving History's Great Medical Mysteries (pages 241-276), which probably is the research he refers to in the news paper article.

Mackowiak appears to be a/the leader in the probably quite small field of historical clinicopathology and one assumes he laid down his hypothesis carefully in those 36 pages. Perhaps this reference is missing because the article was more or less "finished" in 2007. The rest of the article suggests that alcohol as a cause has been unpopular for a while; if these exist, we can add counterarguments from other experts (not merely biographers) who have read Mackowiak's chapter, but it seems odd to exclude such a thorough and relatively recent study on the very subject of this article and leave "delirium tremens" as merely one of the many speculations on Poe's death both here and in the main article on Poe. Afasmit (talk) 22:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the source was excluded for any personal reasons. I'm not familiar with it myself. If there is information in it that can enhance this article, it should be added. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:12, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

After a quick check... I found, Afasmit, that you had added a quick footnote to the main Poe article that merely supported the (already footnoted) information on delirium tremens as a possible cause of death. I would suggest that the source is more useful here on the death article, and not merely as a footnote. Perhaps it needs just a quick line, something to the effect of "a recent study by...", possibly even right after the rabies evidence. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I kind of suggested that in my edit summary on the main page, which I made not realizing there was a specific page on Poe's death. I'm not knowledgeable on the subject though, nor do I have access to all the pages of the chapter (even if by combining Amazon and google books you can get quite far;-) I was hoping you would be able to summarize it. Also because it may have an impact on other parts of the text as well. Afasmit (talk) 17:48, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not something I can really commit to. Maybe MorbidAnatomy. I'll leave him a message. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:36, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to chime in on this discussion so late. Thanks for the message alerting me to this, Midnight. I know that this a place to discuss the article, not the topic in general, but judging sources calls for a consideration of the facts. Dr. Benitez suggested rabies not knowing that the patient he was discussing was Poe. Dr. Mackowiak essentially created a blinded study on Poe's death by presenting Poe's case history at a conference as an unknown patient. Though I have not read Mackowiak's subsequent work, it seems that his analysis may not be overly objective--based on the statements provided in Afasmit's comment above. Mackowiak seems to accept that Poe was an alcoholic despite the fact that there is good evidence to the contrary. He had a problem with alcohol--but that's not the same as being an alcoholic. Dr. Mackowiak apparently also has forgotten a crucial fact about delirium tremens which we all learned early in medical school. Delirium tremens is a final stage in alcohol withdrawal that typically begins about 7 days after the onset of withdrawal symptoms. Many people confuse alcohol withdrawal and delirium tremens--they are not synonyms. This is not the time or place to go into a detailed discussion of the course of alcohol withdrawal syndrome but in my opinion the known timing and course of events that lead up to Poe's death do not fit Dr. Mackowiak's diagnosis with enough certainty to conclude that “Poe was a hopeless alcoholic who almost certainly died of delirium tremens.” Mackowiak's book deserves credit as it is one of the few analyses of Poe's death actually written by a physician. And alcohol withdrawal is definitely an important possibility on the list of differential diagnoses. While it's true that the "cause of death" sections in these articles really need major improvements (but whose got the time), based on my consideration of the facts at hand and what few snippets from his book I could find, there doesn't seem to be much reason for any major edits to this article or the main Poe article merely to exploit Mackowiak's authority as a clinician. Rabies and delerium tremens (as well as "alcoholism") are already present in the articles and sourced. That being said, if a Mackowiak source would replace a Silverman source, then I'm all in. MorbidAnatomy (talk) 03:17, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Fantastic response, MorbidAnatomy. Thanks for coming by. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

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Cooping Theory

This comment is not in regards to the plausibility of Poe being a victim of cooping. However, a user has recently removed any reference to the theory claiming that the term does not exist and was coined in the 2000s. I have reverted those edits. References to Poe and cooping are ample and well cited. It is not our charge to determine truth but to reflect published research and writings on Poe's death (which I believe this article does quite well). Further, the user's claim that the term was created only recently is demonstrably false. A quick Google Book search finds the term used in 1910. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:40, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Bad link for rabies death article

The link for footnote 43 doesn't work and I can't find another one for that particular article by R. Michael Benitez.

There are a few articles that tell the story, including this one:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1996-09-11-1996255015-story.html

but it doesn't mention the "rat bites" and "cooping" connection.

I left the link as is (not working).

VickiMeagher (talk) 21:57, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Very unclear section

Under "chronology" the passage here

Poe may have instead been calling for "Herring", as the author had an uncle-in-law in Baltimore named Henry Herring. In later testimonies, Moran avoided reference to Reynolds but mentioned a visit by a "Misses Herring". He also claimed he attempted to cheer up Poe during one of the few times he was awake. When Moran told his patient that he would soon be enjoying the company of friends, Poe allegedly replied that, "The best thing his friend could do would be to blow out his brains with a pistol".

uses too frequently the pronoun "he", which makes the text very difficult to read due to three possible male subjects being present. GuilaumeDeschutes (talk) 03:05, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Good point. Feel free to make an edit or two to clarify. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

On a second reading of the passage in question, I'm not sure I agree. Which use of "he" seems unclear here? Each usage seems directly tied to a name mentioned immediately before or otherwise discernible by context. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

The goals of my recent edits to the opening paragraph are:

• Start narrating events ASAP (in the second sentence, not the third)
• Narrate them in chronological order (obviously he would not account for his condition after he died)
• Avoid repeating Poe's name in short succession
• Eliminate the abruptly short "He was 40" sentence.

I will add to this that it is not a point of controversy that Poe was found in poor condition. Both Walker and Snodgrass agreed on that and to my knowledge no one contradicted it, and after all his condition was such that he died. Therefore there is no reason to quote from Walker's note as if it were controversy. I call this "chewing the sources," i.e. making a performance of attribution and citation when it serves no policy purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:642:4600:3F80:A85C:B510:6789:B329 (talk) 00:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Re: Rabies

Dr. Benitez theorizes that Poe may have gotten rabies from being bitten by one of his pets. He was known to have cats and other pets. Although there is no account that Poe had been bitten by an animal, it is interesting that in all the cases of human rabies in the United States from 1977 to 1994, people remembered being bitten in only 27 percent of those cases. In addition, people can have the infection for up to a year without major symptoms

This is is apparently quite rare and can last longer than a year. Rabid: A Cultural History of the World's Most Diabolical Virus (2012): "After a bite, the rabies virus binds quickly into the peripheral nerves but then makes its course with almost impossible sloth, usually requiring at least three weeks and often as long as three months to arrive at and penetrate the brain. On rare occasions a full year, or even five years, can elapse before the onset of symptoms. During this time the wound will heal over, and the victim may even forget about his scrape with a snarling beast." Viriditas (talk) 00:57, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Two different dates for funeral in article

Two different dates for funeral in article. Section "Posthumous character assassination" reads: On October 9, the day of Poe's burial but earlier in Section "Funeral" reads: Poe's funeral was a simple one, held at 4 p.m. on Monday, October 8, 1849, in Baltimore (with reference) Hdggfdgh (talk) 19:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I have made the correction. --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)