Talk:Death of Hadis Najafi

Ethnicity

User:Savalanni I'm not saying that there is a dispute in regard to her ethnic background; in my view I fail to see how it is relevant to the article (most sources do not mention it for instance) and I also fail to see how the sources you've added support it. For the TRT source: TRT is not a reliable source (just read its Wikipedia article to see what I'm talking about) so cannot be used to support some of her videos being to Turkish music. We also cannot cite her TikTok account directly. A compromise could perhaps be to just not mention the nationality of the singers at all.

For her being Azerbaijani; the VoA source (1) just mentions the birthplace of her parents, not anyone's ethnic background. The Tabriz Turan source (2) also mentions birthplace, not ethnicity - I am also not sure it qualifies as a reliable source. The only source that actually calls her Azerbaijani is the Gunaz TV source (3), which I am also not sure is a reliable source. I would welcome other editors to weigh in on this as well. Beodizia (talk) 12:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Beodizia you have written there is no dispute about Hadis Najfi's ethnicity being Azerbaijani; yes it is true, she is Azerbiajani without any doubt. You say but it is not relevant to mention this fact in Wikipedia article, now two questions: 1. Why you are the person who decides what is relevant and what is not relevant in Wikipedia? I say Wikipedia is a correct place to mention it. 2. Ethnicity af Mahsa Amini is revelant and is written in the Wikipedia article but ethnicity of Hadis Najafi is not? I can show thousands of Wikipedia articles in which the ethnicity of people are mentioned. Is it not a sign of anti-Azerbaijani or anti-Turkic thoughts to censor her real ethnic background? Hopefully not.

The fact that she singes Turkish is also clear: I have given TRT as source, you say it is not valid source. You can alternatively go directly to TikTok and Instagram of her and see and hear that she posted many Turkish videos. Why you do not accept the reality? Why you try to censor the reality? Is it not a sign of anti-Turkish thoughts? Hopefully not.

I shall not try to give other sources, because you shall not accept them, saying again they are not good sources, this one is not acceptable source, that one is a bad source, or this is not relevant, that one is not mentionable, ... .

Her mother published a video speaking in Azerbaijani to describe her daughter's death. Her sister gives interviews in Azerbaijani language to TV channels like AznewsTV channel, in her funeral you hear Azerbaijani Noha, many sources say her paranets are born in Irainian Azerbaijan, many sources say the family are ethnic Azerbaijani, she itself published many Turkish videos in Tiktok [1] and Instagram, and has written in Turkish in Instagram (main Instagram status in Turkish: Doldur şimdi yerimi başka ben varsa... [2]), ....

Hopefully Wikipedia Admins see my wrtings here and do something against this Anti-Turkic censoreship in Wikipedia Savalanni (talk) 13:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: It is a bit extreme to accuse me of anti-Turkish censorship, don't you think? I do not doubt that this woman was of Azerbaijani descent. The difference to Mahsa Amini is that there are plenty of reliable sources that state that she was Kurdish, this is not the case here (I would question the relevance of that too if the source material was more limited). TRT is not a valid source and as I mentioned, we cannot cite Instagram or TikTok directly either. It is not a refusal to accept reality or censorship, I am just asking if there are better sources that discuss ethnicity at all in this case. The information present on Wikipedia should be supported by reliable sources, otherwise anyone could just add whatever they wanted. Beodizia (talk) 13:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

you have written in edit summary to delete the mentioning of her Azerbaijani ethnicity: "Don't turn the murder of a young woman into a pointless dispute on ethnic origin" [3]. Please judg yourself. Savalanni (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think disputes concerning ethnicities are pointless and I feel that arguing about this is in poor taste; what matters in this case is that Najafi lived in Iran and was killed due to the suppression of women by the Iranian regime. You can spend all the time you want trying to attack my character but what matters for including ethnicity here is if it can be substantiated with a reliable source. Beodizia (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: Why her life's other details like the number of her sister and brothers, the details of her job , her studies, her dances, ... are relevant in the article but her ethnicity is not relevant? This is clearly a paradox with considering what you have written above. The motive is clear: avoid mentioning of her Azerbaijani background in Wikipedia, it does not matter how .Savalanni (talk) 13:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: The other life details are there because they could be substantiated with reliable sources. Most of the available sources talk about Najafi's personal life history yet do not mention any ethnicity so those details seem to be generally regarded to be more relevant, yes. I don't know why you think I have an anti-Azerbaijani or anti-Turkic agenda or why you would believe Wikipedia as a whole does. Beodizia (talk) 13:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: If you are right please give me the claimed "valid sources" about the number of sisters and brothers, her studies details, work place. I have given you valid sources about her ethnic background. Anti Turkic trends in Wikipedia is clear than: 2*2 = 4 Savalanni (talk) 13:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: The sources supporting that information are already in the article. I have brought up this at the admin noticeboard to fast-track a resolution since I am not really interested in having a discussion this militant. I find it absurd to take me asking for higher quality sources as evidence of anti-Turkic trends on Wikipedia. Beodizia (talk) 14:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: There is only one source about all of that daetails. You see you do not have "valid sources" about other details of her life, but you keep them and do not delete them. But I have many sources about her ethnic background but you delete them. This is exactly the paradox about which I am speaking. Savalanni (talk) 14:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: As I pointed out, only one of the sources you provided mention ethnicity - the others only mention the birthplace of her parents. I don't see why I have to keep explaining my position. Only Gunaz TV calls her Azerbaijani and I cannot verify whether that's a reliable source because I can find very little about it. The number of sources does not matter if none are reliable. I think Radio Zamaneh is a reliable enough source to support those personal details. Beodizia (talk) 14:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: who claims that Radio Zamaneh is valid source but Gunaz TV is not a valid source? I say both are valid. Savalanni (talk) 14:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: As I said, I could track down very little on Gunaz TV so I could not verify its reliability. I also found it suspicious that out of three added sources, only one actually supported the statement and that there was very little mention of ethnicity in any of the other sources. If it is found through discussion with other editors or an admin that Gunaz TV indeed is reliable and that it is relevant to mention ethnicity in this article I will not object to including it. Beodizia (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: there are two topics here: 1. Ethnicity of Hadis Najafi being Azerbaijani (Turkic). 2. The fact that she had interest in Turkish songes besides pop music and Iranian in her TikTok and Instagram videos. In both cases there are many reasons and soureces to prove them. You delete this information from the article. I think there is one sensibility about what is related to "Turk". There are many similiar non-Turkic information based on similar sources and reasons in this and in many other articles in Wikipedia. You show never any sensibility against them. Why? Savalanni (talk) 20:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Savalanni, I encourage you to focus on the content, not editors, because this will help support a productive discussion about what to include in the article. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Hadis Najafi's Azerbaijani Ethnicity is added based on a new reliable source from The Caspian Post [4]. Savalanni (talk) 14:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Gunaz TV is not a reliable source. It's a TV channel pushing for the secession of Azerbaijan from Iran. The name of the TV channel speaks for itself: Güney Azərbaycan ("Southern" Azerbaijan, as opposed to the "Northern Azerbaijan", i.e., the Republic of Azerbaijan)

I already warned you enwiki users at the AfD about the petty ethnic conflicts some people try to push both inside and outside Wikipedia. Please review them: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hadis Najafi 4nn1l2 (talk) 20:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

This article is about an event (the death). It is not a biography, so extensive details of the deceased (including detailed ancestry) is irrelevant. WWGB (talk) 12:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@WWGB: why the number of her sister and brothers, the details of her job and workplace, what she has studied, to which music she has danced, ... are all relevant in the article but her ethnicity is not relevant? Why in the similiar article Death of Mahsa Amini and thousands other article the ethnicity is relevant but in Death of Hadis Najafi it is not? The answer is simple: because she was of Azerbaijani Turkic decent and this is considered to be a big problem in Wikipedia. Savalanni (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

You are familiar with Iran and you know very well the answer of these questions yourself. Mahsa Amini's Kurdish ethnicity is important because it adds to the fact how innocent/oppressed (مظلوم) she was. Just look at the intersectionality here: 1) She was a woman in a country accused of gender apartheid; 2) She was from a small town near the poor borderline regions (as opposed to Najafi who was from Karaj, the fourth biggest Iranian city just in the vicinity of Tehran in the center of Iran); 3) She was a Kurd, a stateless nation in the Middle East who have suffered terribly for hundreds of years; 4) She was a Sunni in Shia-dominated Iran; etc. None of these works for Turkic people in Iran who have ruled for centuries even in Persia in addition to many other places such as Anatolia and Central Asia. Azeris in Iran are rich and powerful enough and the intersectionality does not work for them. Nobody thinks they are oppressed or innocent. They are part of the system themselves as the ethnicity of the supreme leader (Mashhad-born Azeri) proves it. 4nn1l2 (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@4nn1l2: Selective publishing of information is exactly what censoreship means. This method is the method used in Soviet Union and in other communist countries like North Korea and also in many other countries to suppress some people (or ethnic groups). We must allow free publishing of information regardless of its impact, and never restrict information based on some political interests. There are big differences between Mahsa Amini and Hadis Najafi: 1. Mahsa Amini's death is disputed. Many say she died of diseases and is not killed at all. But Hadis Najafi is clearly killed with gun bullets (search her bloody dead body pictures.) 2. Many had fear of a living Hadis Najafi and many have fear of a died Hadis Najafi (the reason of all censoreship against her). 3. Only living Mahsa Amini was suppressed, but Hadis Najafi was suppressed in her living and is being suppressed also after her death. I do not accept your argumentations in favour of non-Turkic ethnicities and against Turkic ethnicities; it is clear discrimination and is the way to a dangerous rasis dictatorship Savalanni (talk) 21:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Please... You know very well that I am not a clueless foreigner, and I won't buy such statements.

Najafi was nobody and the fact that today there is an article dedicated to her at the English Wikipedia is just a matter of chance, if not a disinformation campaign by various groups with various motivations including by that employee of the US government Masih Alinejad. It all started with that fake ponytail video, and nothing was special about her except for the vast media hype. She was not the triggerer of the protests (as opposed to Amini) nor her manner of death "shocked" many people (as opposed to the teenager Nika Shakarami). In essence, her condition is mush more similar to other obscure victims (such as Hanane Kia) who do not have a dedicated article rightly. 4nn1l2 (talk) 23:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Amini was also nobody and the fact that today we know her is just a matter of chance too, if not a report by the journalist Niloofar Hamedi as the initiator of protests were made. Nika Shakarami is also not killed in the protests but is fallen from top of a tall building, based on many sources. Other sources say she has committed suicide. But the Azerbaijani Turkic woman Hadis Najafi is clearly martyred in street with 20 gun bullets, this is the fact.Savalanni (talk) 23:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Hi everyone, I restored what had been the status quo, before the disputed material was added, per WP:BLPRESTORE, in part because there are claims being made about her family, but also because Najafi has recently died and at least some of BLP policy applies to her as well. There are options for dispute resolution if this Talk page discussion does not help, e.g. questions about sources can be asked at the Reliable sources Noticeboard, and the BLP Noticeboard can address questions related to claims made about living people. I am not as familiar with the Neutral point of view Noticeboard, but it addresses NPOV policy, which includes what is WP:DUE weight in this article. Beccaynr (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beccaynr: Thank you. I have asked about Gunaz TV at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Gunaz TV. Beodizia (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

That sounds like a good next step. Also, WP:BDP is a part of WP:BLP policy that potentially applies to Najafi as well. Beccaynr (talk) 15:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose any mention to her ethnicity. If a white man is killed in the USA, nobody thinks about him being a man or a white. On the other hand, if a black (wo)man is killed in the USA where racism is a BIG BIG BIG issue, their "race" becomes important as you saw with George Floyd, a black man killed by a white cop. The same logic applies to Iran. The fact that Amini was a Kurd adds to her intersectionality and shows how innocent/oppressed she was. The claim that Najafi was a Turk does NOT add to her intersectionality because Turkic people have ruled Persia for hundreds of years, not to mention other places such as Anatolia (the Ottoman Empire) and central Asia. Kurds are a stateless nation who have suffered for centuries in the Middle East. Just look how they are treated in Turkey. They were forced to spit out tr:Ne mutlu Türk'üm diyene (How happy is the one who says I am a Turk) every day at schools and their identity was denied by calling them "Mountain Turks". Read the denial of Kurds by Turkey article please. 4nn1l2 (talk) 21:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@4nn1l2: Selective publishing of information is what censoreship means. We must allow free publishing of information regardless of its political impact, and never restrict information flow based on some political interests. Wikipedia should be a place for free access to information. Your argumentations are in favour of non-Turkic ethnicities and against Turkic ethnicities in iran; this is a clear discrimination against Turkic people; please avoid it. The discrimination in Iran against Turkic people since one hundred years (After Pahlavi Regime) were much worse. Their language is forbidden, 25000 Azerbaijani Turkic people were massacared in 1946 in hands of Pahlavi regime (known as 21 Azar genocide). Their Turkic identity is denied. They are suppressed daily inside and outside of Iran. There are much to say about suppression againgst Azerbaijani Turkic people in Iran. Savalanni (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Even if you have sources to confirm Hadis Najafi's ethnicity, that doesn't mean it should be included in the article's lead. I would recommend taking it to dispute resolution boards; I believe Request For Comment WP:RFC would be the best option here, as it is clear from the discussion that WP:DNR most likely will not end up with a consensus. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 11:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hadis Najafi's Azerbaijani Ethnicity is added based on new reliable sources

Hadis Najafi's Azerbaijani Ethnicity is added based on a new reliable source from The Caspian Post [5]. Savalanni (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Further sources (other than earlier mentioned one) about her Azerbaijani Turkic ethnicity are also existing, like:

https://expatguideturkey.com/hadis-najafi-who-became-the-symbol-of-protests-in-iran-was-killed/

https://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/protestolara-katilmisti-iranda-basortusunu-cikartan-genc-turk-kizi-kursuna-dizildi-581779h.htm

Savalanni (talk) 21:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Change the title from "Death of Hadis Najafi" to "Killing of Hadis Najfi"

Hello. I believe the title is misleading as "death" is quite a neutral/natural term that does not accurately describe the fact of the matter with regards to Hadis's passing. She didn't die, she got killed/ murdered, and I think using the term "killing" or "murder" is more appropriate in this case, just like it has been used for Neda Agha Soltan. Exhaustedgolsa (talk) 22:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

The title is a result of this recent discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hadis Najafi, and based on the content of the article, the title currently appears to reflect the neutral point of view policy. There are also naming conventions for articles, including for violence and deaths, that currently appear to support the current title, based on the available but conflicting sources. However, a request to move this article to a new title can be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Beccaynr (talk) 23:52, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree "killing of..." is the right title for a fatal shooting per WP:DEATHS. Levivich (talk) 03:40, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The AFP states, "Najafi was killed while participating in a street protest on September 21 in Karaj, outside Tehran. According to Amnesty International, she was shot by security forces", and El Pais states she "was killed by security forces, according to Amnesty International." Beccaynr (talk) 05:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

The fact that she was shot dead makes this appropriate for the "Killing of" title. It matters not to the title WHO shot her, she was still killed. WWGB (talk) 05:53, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

It should also be mentioned in the lede then that she was shot and killed, correct? Simply saying "her death" is rather vague, and we have reliable sources that state she was killed by gunshots. I don't see how this is controversial, especially given that there are suggestions to change the title of the page to "Killing of ..."

Other thoughts? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Stating in WP:WIKIVOICE that she was killed by gunfire does not appear supported by the sources in the article. While there appears to be support for stating she was killed, we appear to have conflicting reports about the exact cause of her death, and my revert of the change to the lead is based on WP:NPOV policy, and I think there should be consensus before it is changed, with consideration of what sources say and the challenging news reporting environment. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:50, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beccaynr: Which reliable sources dispute that her death was not related to the shooting incident? Thanks. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:01, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

The Death section contains conflicting reports, and the AFP source above reports, "Najafi was killed while participating in a street protest on September 21 in Karaj" and then separately attributes her being shot by security forces to Amnesty International. We need to be careful to avoid synthesizing information from sources to create a conclusion that sources are not stating, and then having this article project a point of view on what happened when we do not appear to have exact or clear information. Beccaynr (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beccaynr: What synthesis? Saying that "Najafi was reported to have been killed by gunfire during demonstrations" is backed up and stated very clearly (almost verbatim) by reliable sources (please see below). Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:04, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

We cannot synthesize information from a combination of sources to say something that the sources do not state, and we cannot use WP:NEWSWEEK. That she was killed has support from sources, and that she was shot is supported by sources, but WP:NPOV and WP:OR policies do not appear to allow us to state in WP:WIKIVOICE that she was "killed by gunfire during demonstrations". As stated in sources in the section noted in my comment above, the exact cause of her death is disputed. I would also like to hear from other editors about how to approach this issue. Beccaynr (talk) 23:21, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Uhh, please see the sources and excerpts below. There is zero original research or synthesis going on here. What are you talking about?? Please look at the exact wording from the media! There are many examples that say she was shot during demonstrations. Thanks. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:26, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I expanded the lead to state that she died after being struck by gunfire. And I am talking about the policies we need to consider, especially for contentious topics and challenging news environments. Beccaynr (talk) 23:34, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:41, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

sources regarding her death

'We want everyone to know her name': TikToker Hadis Najafi, 23, shot dead in Iran protests - Sky News, 30 Sept. 2022

She was not an activist, or openly outspoken online about women's liberation, but she was still gunned down in her home city campaigning for her right to live and dress how she wanted. Hadis Najafi, 23, took to the streets of Karaj last week to speak out against Iran's strict hijab mandate and was shot dead.

Iranian TikToker Hadis Najafi, 23, 'shot dead' during demonstrations in Karaj - itv News, 30 Sept. 2022

A 23-year-old TikToker was shot dead during demonstrations in Iran sparked by the death of Mahsa Amini after her arrest by the country's morality police. Hadis Najafi was shot multiple times in the heart, abdomen and neck during a protest in Karaj last week, her mother said. The Iranian government said Ms Najafi was shot by protesters, Iran’s semi-official Fars News Agency reported.

Hadis, Minoo And Ghazaleh: The Women Victims Of Iran's Crackdown - IBI Times/AFP, 5 Oct. 2022

According to Amnesty International, she was shot by security forces several times at close range, with birdshot wounds to the face, neck and chest. Najafi was one of dozens of people who rights groups say have been killed in the Iranian security forces' crack down on protests that erupted over the death of Mahsa Amini in morality police custody.

A 20-year-old TikToker killed while protesting for women's rights has become a symbol of Iran's resistance - Business Insider, 30 Sept. 2022

Hadis Najafi, a 20-year-old who frequently posted on social media, has emerged as a symbol of the protests after reports say she was killed by security forces in the city of Karaj.

Iran Woman Shot Dead After Viral Video of Unscarved Hair: Report - NDTV, 28 Sept. 2022

According to reports, she was shot in the abdomen, neck, heart and hand.

Hadis Najafi killed in Iran protests, becomes new symbol of defiance - The Jerusalem Post, 26 Sept. 2022

Najafi was shot six times and killed in the city of Karaj by Iranian security forces on Wednesday, Iranian Journalist and women’s rights advocate Masih Alinejad, along with others, reported throughout social media. According to the reports, she sustained injuries in the abdomen, neck, heart and hand on September 21. After being shot by security forces she was taken to Ghaem Hospital, where she was later pronounced dead.

Young Iranian Woman Who Became Symbol of Protests After Viral Video Killed - Newsweek, 25 Sept. 2022

Hadis Najafi, the 20-year-old who became an online symbol of the protests against the death of Mahsa Amini in Iran, has been reportedly killed by Iranian security forces during demonstrations in the city of Karaj, near Tehran. ... Iranian journalist Masih Alinejad reported that the 20-year-old woman was killed after being hit by six bullets in the city of Karaj, according to what Najafi's sister told her.

From a quick search, it seems pretty clear, from multiple sources, that Hadis Najafi was shot and killed. Is there any dispute about this fact? Thanks. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:42, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

If there are no reliable sources stating otherwise, then this information should be included in the lede, to better reflect the overall content of the article. (I would also like to point out that the infobox says she was shot which should be made clear in the lede as well.) Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:40, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

UPDATE: Beccaynr has expanded the lead to include this information. Thanks! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:45, 27 October 2022 (UTC)