Talk:Death of Joanna Lee

Died a year later?

Can someone please explain why her date of death and the month she died in are a year apart? One says December 2000 and the other December 2001. Farslayer (talk) 09:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Untitled

Ummm...is this real? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.123.162 (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

https://www.lawyerservices.in/The-Queen-Versus-Yong-Bum-Lee-2006-04-07 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcshua (talk • contribs) 11:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Is this... serious...?

It seems to either be non-notable or... a hoax. I really don't see how this article is relevant at all... 98.198.85.83 (talk) 08:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the case attracted WP:SIGCOV in New Zealand at least. (I don't speak Korean and don't have access to contemporary Korean newspapers, but I'm guessing it probably attracted media attention there too.) I've improved the sourcing, although the article itself still needs work. See also Janet Moses. Muzilon (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 24 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Death of Joanna Lee at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 09:55, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

---

Joanna Lee (exorcism victim) → Killing of Joanna Lee – Per WP:DEATHS and WP:ONEEVENT; victim was non-notable other than the unusual circumstances of her death. Muzilon (talk) 09:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 16:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
• Death of would be better, e.g., since death (or at least permanent death) may not have been the intended result. But yeah, either would be an improvement over "excorcism victim". As a reminder, WP:DEATHS is not a guideline or policy. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and ModernDayTrilobite. Not a biographical entry and also, regardless of whether the victim was a willing participant or not, she was killed by the pastor's actions during the exorcism. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:31, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose While I agree that the article should be renamed, "Killing ..." is inappropriate as long as there isn't a conviction that backs that up. "Death of Joanna Lee" is a neutral and appropriate article title. Schwede66 23:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

There was a manslaughter conviction that was later quashed on appeal because the Court of Appeal ruled there had been procedural errors during the original trial; however, (as I understand it) the New Zealand authorities then determined it would be impractical to arrange the retrial because most of the surviving witnesses - including the accused - had left the country. There is a bench warrant for the pastor's arrest should he ever return to NZ. Muzilon (talk) 00:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support Death of Joanna Lee per User:BarrelProof. JIP | Talk 20:33, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
• Support at either "Killing of..." or "Death of..." - preferably the latter. Grutness...wha? 02:27, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support death of Joanna Lee. This situation is a complex situation similar to that of Death of Conrad Roy. cookie monster 755 01:08, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest it's more similar to Killing of Janet Moses. Muzilon (talk) 01:39, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

saying no relation is literally unnecessary

“The fact that defendant and victim were not related was pointed out by several reliable sources. Take it up on the Talk page if you think this is irrelevant.”

dude, to reply to your ignorant so-called “edit summary”, removing the (no relation) wasn’t to say that they were related, I did it because it was literally unnecessary. honestly, I love how you were so dumbfounded that you completely ignored my edit summary in which I straightforwardly said “we don’t point out Park Seo-joon and Park Hyung-sik being no relation, do we?” as to make a point and say that articles ‘’’do not’’’ point out people who share a surname being no relation. while I have absolutely no idea who the Lees were, pointing out them being no relation is unnecessary since it’s something a person can figure out with common sense, it literally doesn’t even take rocket science to figure out Geoyui (talk) 22:20, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@Geoyui: Wikipedia summarizes what has been written in reliable sources. Multiple reliable sources felt it necessary to point out that despite sharing the same surname, these two members of the same cult were not related. Those sources include the NZ Herald, the NZ Court of Appeal, and the two scholarly journal articles (Hall and Kavan). (And per H:FIES, failing to leave an edit summary – assuming you are the IP editor who made those edits – is discouraged on Wikipedia.) Muzilon (talk) 22:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

PS. I note that your latest IP edit – which again lacks an edit summary – has removed the bracketed phrase but left behind the two citations?? Anyway, I've requested a WP:THIRDOPINION. Muzilon (talk) 23:04, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

articles of same-surname-but-no-relation actors Park Seo-joon and Park Hyung-sik (and other Korean actors/idols with the surname Park) don’t explicitly mention them being no relation, so why should Joanna Lee’s? if anything, my argument to back me up should be valid Geoyui (talk) 00:51, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

If one was arrested for strangling the other during some cult ritual then it would be worthwhile mentioning their relationship (or lack thereof) too. In fact, Wikipedia articles often mention that the subject is not related to people in the same "field" who have the same surname.[1][2]. Muzilon (talk) 01:25, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

"PS. I note that your latest IP edit – which again lacks an edit summary – has removed the bracketed phrase but left behind the two citations??"

tbh, I didn't know how to remove them without messing up the article Geoyui (talk) 00:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, you called me "ignorant", but I shan't retort per WP:CIVIL, and shall wait for the WP:THIRDOPINION. Kind regards, Muzilon (talk) 01:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I was tempted to reply as a 3O but the entry was taken up by someone else ( thank you Firefangledfeathers).

But I will keep an eye on this talk page and I do feel the need to remind both of the current editors to assume good faith.

Muzilon, the comment made was about the edit summary, not you as a user so I commend you for refraining from reacting.

Geoyui, please do keep a calm demeanor on here. We are all just trying to make the article better.

Padillah (talk) 19:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

then explain why articles like co-actors (ie Park Min-young and Park Seo-joon, Park Bo-young and Park Hyung-sik, or Park Bo-gum and Park So-dam) don't explicitly say "no relation". what's the difference? Geoyui (talk) 21:46, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Sharing the same vocation is not necessarily sufficient to automatically mention "no relation" (cf. Jennifer Lopez and Mario Lopez). However, if there is a great deal of biographical overlap or coincidence then the fact of "no relationship" may be notable. In this case, Luke and Joanna Lee are notable only for the fact that they were involved in a high-profile homicide case. As both were members of the same cult, both had travelled to NZ, and both were (I think) sharing the same house at the time of her death, the fact that they were not related becomes significant enough to mention. Muzilon (talk) 23:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Whether or not you know who these men are, would that be similar to why Kurt Hugo Schneider's page says he's (no relation) to Max Schneider? Geoyui (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. If Jason Scott Lee hadn't played Bruce Lee in that "Dragon" movie, we probably wouldn't mention that Jason is not related to Bruce either. Muzilon (talk) 23:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Death of Joanna Lee and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

We should include the clarification. The reliable sources provided by Muzilon show that the short phrase is commonly considered informative by reliable sources. The cost in words is low. Geoyui, you should know that arguments based on what other articles are doing are often considered unpersuasive here, per WP:OTHERCONTENT. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Deported or left voluntarily?

The lead says (well, it still says) Luke Lee was deported but the article body just says he (and others) left. Can anyone verify which is correct? Padillah (talk) 13:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Pastor Lee was deported to Korea after being released from prison, while the other Korean witnesses apparently returned there voluntarily. That's why the article twice uses the word "deported" for Lee, whereas the Trial & Appeal section simply gives a blanket statement that Lee and the witnesses "had left" New Zealand. It would be incorrect to state that all parties were "deported." Muzilon (talk) 23:08, 12 May 2023 (UTC)