Talk:Denmark Street

QR code

I added a photo of the newest blue plaque. This has a QR code but they put the plaque so high up that it's not easy to resolve. I'll have another go but, in case I forget, I'm noting this here as the corresponding URL would be good as an external link. We need to move fast as the developers are busy. The premises beneath the plaque were being gutted while I was taking the photo... Andrew (talk) 13:20, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

GA stuff

Dr. Blofeld asked over on his talk what's left to do to get this to GA status.

I don't think there's too much, and I find that a day at DYK tends to get at least one good copyedit that irons out the niggles. Blofeld says there needs to be more Forbidden Planet in the body, and I agree with that. Why did they chose Denmark Street, or was it just the best premises available in the West End? Andrew can hopefully sort that out as he's been a fan of the shop for years. I'd like to know a bit more about these illegal nightclubs, which we only have from a single book source documenting the 1980 fire. The Giaconda needs more information in the body, there are two good cites, so there's definitely information to mine.

Anything else? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:29, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know what more we need for GA but there's plenty more good stuff out there. It's a shame we went with a rather tame DYK hook as we might have had DYKs like "...serial killer Dennis Nilsen used the cooking pot in which he'd boiled his victim's heads for a Xmas party at number 1, Denmark Street!". I'm going to put some of this info into the article in tabular form as it seems interesting to know what happened at the particular street numbers. People don't like listification though so we'll perhaps have to keep the table on the talk page and use prose in the article. The real goal should be FA as we might then get back on the front page again. Still, if we fill the article with good factoids, this will help feed journalists covering the campaign. Andrew (talk) 16:59, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• Andrew, much better than my Nilsen hook three months ago, "DYK that serial killer Dennis Nilsen attempted to murder a student he met at The Salisbury, London, and went on to murder another 14 young men?", which had 1,112 hits. Edwardx (talk) 17:15, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• This DYK got 1722 hits but it did have top billing with a picture. Anyway, we should look forward to another go when we have FA status. It's got to be better than today's FA... Andrew (talk) 12:36, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• Well once the listed building section is sourced (shouldn't be hard), I reckon we're in a position to take this to GA, and as several people have already said elsewhere that it's GA-ready now, it ought not to take too long to pass. Then we can get down to some serious spit and polish and take it to FAC. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:34, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I would avoid lists if you possibly can, as WP:EMBED is one of the few areas of the MOS that is part of the GA criteria. I chose a simple and uncontroversial hook because it would be accepted, is something the layman reader may not have known and would not have been challenged at a review. Also, I'm really concerned that Nilsen has not much to do with Denmark Street, whose notability is based around its heritage and music shops. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Roque's map of 1741

• I like the black humour of the catering industry / cooking pot link. I've added a table of listed buildings. As they are listed, a list seems appropriate, eh? The English Heritage reports have lots of detail about their interiors but, as they are quite similar, we should try to summarise this. It would be good to have a street plan which shows the position of each building but I've not seen anything like that yet. In one source, I saw a reference to a caricature by Henry Bunbury which will be out of copyright so we should look for that too. Andrew (talk) 12:29, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the listed building section is good, apart from the fact the list isn't sourced! I think 16 Denmark PLACE has been mis-transcribed at 16 Denmark STREET (the Camden LBC report has an appendix of listed buildings). This is why you should always cite sources - if you make a mistake, other people can fix it easily. As for maps, I have some out of copyright OS plans from the 19th century, which also have the former St Giles Hospital site marked, so I'll put them in when I get a mo. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:44, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• I plan to investigate Denmark Place more closely as there's a good anecdote connected with someone who lived there. I've found Roque's map useful in other cases but it doesn't have much detail for this place. Andrew (talk) 12:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• The National Library of Scotland has some high-res mapping from c. 1895 showing Denmark Street and Denmark Place with an overlay text stating "Site of St Giles Hospital AD 1101" and other historical landmarks. I've dropped a note at Media copyright questions about this, because I want to make sure we can reuse it here. Even if it's not actually free, we could probably get a fair-use rationale out of it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Can you mention the musical artists associated with the street in the lead, ideally it should have its own paragraph.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:25, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm. Not sure about a paragraph, most of the musicians mentioned in the body only get a brief mention, with the possible exception of the Stones and Regent Sound. I'll see what falls out of the GA review. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:02, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Really? A good portion of the article discusses what musicians are associated with it and is largely why it is notable IMO. A good article would have a sound lead effectively summarising the core of the article. I've added a bit which should cover the essentials.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:02, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I knocked up a lead, but it was rewritten. :-/ ... anyway, I did think the lead needed more, I was just going to wait for the GA review to finish before making a firm decision which way to go. I've added a bit more history to it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:15, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks good now.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Giaconda

It's "Giaconda", not "Gioconda". I think the source used for the name just spelled it wrong. Sources : [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] I appreciate this is contentious as a) the correct Italian for the Mona Lisa is La Gioconda (AFAIK Italian grammar does not need to inflect an adjective just because the noun is feminine) and b) a picture from 1975 has turned up spelling it with the "O". That doesn't necessarily mean it was its original name. So - your thoughts please. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:01, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• I looked into this quite carefully this morning when someone else gave me a barnstar for the article I started about this place. The problem is that the premises has had both spellings at different times under different ownership. To see this most clearly, it is best to look at contemporary photographs. Written transcriptions can't be trusted because it's not clear which incarnation they are getting their evidence from or how careful they are being. The history seems to be:

1. The original place was called La Gioconda. Different photographs of it can be seen here and here. Note that these photos are not quite the same as the Central Sound sign on the left is not present in the first. But, in both cases, the signage for La Gioconda is there and spelt with an O on both the protruding illuminated sign and the lettering over the door. And, of course, this is the correct Italian spelling.

2. In the 1990s, the place was renamed the Barino. I first learnt of this name in Glinert's The London Compendium and a photo of it at this time can be seen here.

3. Then in 2008, the place was made over as the Giaconda Dining Room — a fine-dining restaurant rather than a cafe. This was run by an Australian chef, Paul Merrony, and perhaps his Italian spelling was weak because photos clearly indicate that the signage had an A rather than an O now. See here, for example. There was then a name change to Giaconda Dining Rooms when they expanded and then they changed the name back to La Giaconda again but spelling it with an A this time. See here and here for this incarnation.

4. The place has now gone out of business and is being gutted and so I don't suppose there's much evidence on the ground now - there was no signage when I was there the other day. The blue plaque above has the A spelling but that's been done recently and was applied for by Merrony so can't be considered good evidence for the original.

So, I'm pushing back at the dedicated article and will copy this to the talk page there. That's probably the best place to thrash this out and the Denmark Street article should follow in due course.

I'll be keeping my eyes out for more evidence as there're plenty out there. I like this Time Out page, for example. It doesn't have La Gioconda in it but there's another interesting before/after of Denmark Street: Soho: then and now.

Andrew (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that excellent rationale. To be honest, if the original name is La Gioconda, how did so many book sources documenting that era and the British Plaque Trust get it wrong? They make the balance between verifiability, not truth awkward. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Now Ohconfucius (talk · contribs) has changed it to "Gioconda" in the lead and "Giaconda" elsewhere. That's definitely wrong, but I don't think reverting is the answer. Andrew, do you have a good reliable source for "Gioconda" - we'll need to tag the photo with it, otherwise somebody will look at the photo and conclude the text is "wrong". Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 07:42, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I was not aware of the history of the place, but it sounds interestingly folkloric from the above. It was a tweak of the link that led me to change. I followed it to the café article and merely un-redirected it. I have no view on what the name should be in the article, but perhaps we could have one in proper, and the second one in parentheses "aka". -- Ohc ^¡digame! 01:09, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Regent Sound Studios

I made some edits about Regent Sound Studios on 23rd January 2015. A day later some have vanished and others reverted to the previous incorrect info. I worked in Denmark Street and Denmark Place for nearly 30 years including at Regent Sound. James Baring's own website says that Regent Sound was "Started by Ralph Elman....taken on by me in the 1960s..." (30-7-2005) Regent Sound never "expanded & moved into new premises on Tottenham Court Road while the Denmark Street premises became the sales office". A new larger studio was opened in University Street and called 'Regent A'. The Denmark Street studio stayed operational and was called 'Regent B'. It was never the 'sales office' whatever that is. Bookings for each studio were taken at the respective studios, not centrally in Denmark Street. An interesting project would be to investigate the sharing of the University Street premises with stooges of the Kray Brothers. Surprised that the Denmark Street article makes no mention of the Tin Pan Alley Club. From memory this was at number 7. The club ended up being owned by another gangster. Andrew Loog Oldham never owned Regent Sound. James Baring sold it in the late 60's to Eddie Kassner whose music publishing business was across the road at 25 Denmark Street. Credit should be given to the engineer on those pioneering Rolling Stones sessions in Regent Sound. This was Bill Farley. He also worked at Tin Pan Alley studios at number 22. Denmark Street currently under threat of re-development survived a previous threat in the 1970's from Harry Hyam's Oldham Estates (Centre Point's owner). He wanted to obliterate Denmark Street with a Centre Point mark 2. This was defeated by a combination of local activism and Frank Dobson MP, Illytd Harrington deputy leader of the Greater London Council and adverse press coverage. Camden Council then had guts then unlike now. BTR2 (talk) 12:13, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I've got to nip out but I will address all of this when I've got time. I pop into Denmark Street all the time when I'm in London to gawp at guitars, I miss Helter Skelter on the former Regent Sound ground floor building, and I really miss the 12 Bar Club, particularly as we did a nice small acoustic set about 6 months before it closed and never got a chance to play there again :-/ To cut a long story short, we need reliable sources for all the above claims, but I think I should be able to get them from somewhere. If not, I'll let you know. I trimmed the section on Regent Sound since it appears contentious who the owners are, so for the short term it's best to not mention any of them and just report the studio's lifespan and opening year, which isn't in dispute. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Fix?

I too was sceptical, until I read You Really Got Me. Are we just defending what's written on page 24 of Thompson (2004) here? If so, why? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:54, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

There's this source (amongst many others I have read over the years). Exactly what guitar Page put on the track is up for debate, but nobody except Jon Lord ever came forward about the piano playing. It sounds like Nicky Hopkins to my ears, but no source has ever said that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:58, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Not convinced, especially after Page's repeated denials. Seems like misguided rock folklore to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Well if consensus, like Ulster, says "no" then I'm not going to dispute it. Actually, having read the sources in the other article, I'm convinced I've been working with 30+ year old information, so I've self-reverted. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:07, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

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Mentions in notable works of fiction

In Robert Galbraith's (J.K. Rowling's) Strike Novels, Strikes office and many important scenes in the books are set in Denmark street. Given the popularity of the novels and their critical acclaim I think the page would benefit from mentioning this and any other notable works of fiction. At the very least a sentence could be put into the recent history of the street mentioning its use as a location in the Strike novels. One citation is 92.239.152.92 (talk) 09:12, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

References