Talk:Derbion

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Page move

I didn't look at the article history when I did the move, and the page move log didn't show a move back. I was puzzled to see that it had already been moved but went ahead. I see that User:Davey2010 moved it back a few days ago citing WP:COMMONNAME and numerous discussions elsewhere. A Google search shows over 100,000 hits for "Intu Derby" and a search on Google news shows 13 hits for Intu, only 1 for Westfield and that is mentioning the opening of Westfield Derby in 2007. Anyone searching using the Westfield name will end up on the Intu Derby page. I couldn't find "numerous discussions elsewhere" and they really should have been here or linked here (I did check here before I did the move). I'm convinced that common name and common sense support the move, but if someone starts an RM and there's a decision to move it back, fine. Dougweller (talk) 10:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: - There was a discussion here, here and here - I'm not going to move war over it but I will say this (and I said this on my TP) - Someone really ought to start an RFC or something to clear the confusion up!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

@Davey2010:I think a general RfC may not work, as it will depend upon the local situation. And will change over time. I always got confused between Westgate and Westfield anyway! However, some of the discussion seems to be about what people call it - which seems anecdotal, rather than what sources call it. And the issue there is what do sources call it (or others- since the rename. Dougweller (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

You're right It probably wouldn't to be honest, As an example Lakeside is getting called both "Intu Lakeside" and "Lakeside shopping centre" I'd imagine it's like that for most of the rest but in time I guess the name(s) will gradually be used .. –Davey2010 • (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I moved this too. Although some people locally call it the Westfield (and never Westfield Derby) for the common name, others do not. It seems wrong to call it the name of the previous branded company. As for citing sources, well there is plenty of photographic evidence. I am not sure anyone can say the way of citing what a popular common name is for this. Printed media and roadsigns, etc will have it as intu, people who live in Derby will refer to it in different ways mostly just the shopping centre but if forced to give it a name some use Westfield and some less use Intu. If asked what is the "correct" name I suspect intu would be a clear winner.

I see this a little less problematic than lakeside, etc. even with less time rebranding as it refers to a previous company. Rovastar (talk) 17:53, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Returning to this issue again: I'm in favour of moving the page to Intu Derby; calling it Westfield just looks out of date and wrong. I know the consensus about Intu centres generally is to use the "traditional", non-corporate name; but Derby, of course, has a problem – it doesn't have one. I think the best way to look at it is to consider the approach we use for sponsored stadiums: we use traditional, pre-sponsor names where they exist, e.g. Pride Park Stadium is the article title rather than iPro Stadium; but stadiums without established non-sponsored names use the sponsor for the title and have to change along with it, e.g. King Power Stadium. So, similarly, I would suggest Braehead rather than "Intu Braehead" – YES – but in this case "Intu Derby" – using the current corporate branding instead of what we have now, an outdated corporate branding. Jellyman (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 4 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. - Okie dokie that didn't go as well as I'd hoped, For some reason I assumed consensus would perhaps change, Anyway I apologize for essentially wasting everyones time here. –Davey2010^Talk 00:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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• Westfield Derby → Intu Derby
• Broadmarsh → Intu Broadmarsh
• The Glades (Bromley) → Intu Bromley
• Chapelfield → Intu Chapelfield
• Eldon Square Shopping Centre → Intu Eldon Square
• Lakeside Shopping Centre → Intu Lakeside
• Merry Hill Shopping Centre → Intu Merry Hill
• MetroCentre (shopping centre) → intu Metrocentre
• Potteries Shopping Centre → Intu Potteries
• The Chimes, Uxbridge → Intu Uxbridge
• Victoria Centre → Intu Victoria Centre
• Harlequin Shopping Centre → Intu Watford

In 2014 consensus was not to change the names to "Intu X" [1][2][3], Well times change and it does kinda make sense to move them, Some here are using previous company names (IE Westfield Derby) so to make everything consistent and to a point "with the times" I propose moving all to Intu X, (There was also a discussion on my talkpage but that's now in the 2014 archives which is extremely long so to save pcs crashing I won't link it!) –Davey2010^Talk 23:02, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• I see no point advertizing Intu Properties here if the place can be unambiguously referred to otherwise. For each place, how often do the people in the area say "intu" when naming the place? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
  • To be completely honest I would imagine no one does but I personally don't see the harm in moving them to the correct name anyway, I honestly hate the name as much as you but I kinda feel they're gonna end up being moved at one time or another anyway, I am kinda wondering if this was a bad idea but heyho we'll soon find out . –Davey2010^Talk 23:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• There's also Intu Trafford Centre, which was moved and reverted twice. These should be discussed separately - "Westfield Derby" contains the name of a former owner, which could be misleading and should probably be updated, but it depends on the common name - Merry Hill is not usually referred to as Intu. These are not the only correct names; those used by organisations such as the Royal Mail (which uses "The Merry Hill Centre") and by local authorities are equally correct. We don't have to use the names used by the owners particularly where they often change - so for football stadiums the names are dependent on sponsorship but if there's a commonly used non-sponsored name then that is usually used for the article title. It could be that some of these are usually referred to with "Intu" names (just as The Mall Blackburn contains the name of its current owner, which is the common name although the centre had already existed for about 30 years as Blackburn Shopping Centre) but evidence may be needed for these move requests. Peter James (talk) 23:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• For example, to me Intu Uxbridge's name sounds like it is Intu Properties's office block in Uxbridge, which it is not. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 00:01, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Oppose. I see no need for the change or for "consistency". Wikipedia should not promote corporate branding where those extended names are not the common parlance.Charles (talk) 09:24, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

We don't need consistency. However, a Google News search shows Intu Derby gets a lot more hits then Westfield Derby in the last year. Doug Weller (talk) 09:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• In speech, prefixing "Intu" sounds strange because it is pronounced the same as the common preposition "into". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Article name

The centre is named Intu Derby, that's what the sign out the front says, the website etc, so the article name should reflect. The contract of sale would have required a rebranding within a period of time and hence it was done. If the reason for not renaming is that Intu Derby is seen as promoting a corporate brand, then the same problem exists with having the article named Westfield Derby, given that it is Westfield as in Westfield Corporation. So what we have is an oudated corporate brand versus a current corporate brand.

While the argument put above to retain generic names for examples like Trafford Centre is valid where one exists, there isn't one for this centre. The last generic name, Eagle Centre, hasn't been used for nearly a decade and fails WP:COMMONNAME. Bit like saying we should keep Sri Lanka as Ceylon. While I agree items of public infrastructure should retain generic rather than commercial names, e.g. Pride Park Stadium not iPro Stadium, in the case of a shopping centre, it is privately owned and it is the owners prerogative to name as they see fit. Like when Derby City Transport was sold, it was the owner's right to rebrand it, hence the article is named Arriva Derby.

The article was rewritten back in October 2014 to reflect the Intu rebranding and has been accepted since, it just seems the final step of renaming was not followed through.

Pinging editors Peter James, Dougweller Jellyman, Rovastar, Anthony Appleyard, Charles and Davey2010 who have previously expressed an opinion on the matter. Greenrocket8 (talk) 04:28, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Completely agree with everything here, there is no generic non-corporate name for the centre, so the Intu name should be used. Jellyman (talk) 13:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah didn't get a the ping and only just spotted this in my watchlist, To be honest there's been confusion since 2014 over the names and there's been about 4 or 5 discussions on it but anyway consensus for the most part has been to keep all centres at the previous name(s), Anyway to be absolutely honest half of me thinks "It shouldn't be moved because it seems promotional & per COMMONNAME etc etc but the other half thinks perhaps this (and maybe the rest?) should be moved over, At the moment I really have no idea, –Davey2010^Talk 13:31, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Commercial names such as this are likely to last unless something changes, sponsored names are likely to change when the sponsorship ends so this isn't like the stadium names (whether the stadium is privately owned or not). I would support a move here, because the title is misleading (although the postal address for at least one part of it is still "Westfield Centre, Derby"), but not for some of the others. Peter James (talk) 17:26, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Article name */ i believe there are legitimate claims to rename the article of this page. The arguments for renaming the other "intu" centres does not apply for this shopping centre. Although it is a commercial name, it is still a current commercial name and has valid grounds in terms of COMMONNAME naming rights. There has been two years of ownership and the article needs to represent the rebranding in the article name. Common name and common sense both support this article name change move. Web searches, literature all suggest the common name is definitely now intu Derby. How long are we going to leave this outdated for? jontyb (talk)

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Requested move 29 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Unopposed move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

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Intu Derby → Derbion – As shown and sourced in the article, the shopping centre has now been renamed, the former name is no longer suitable as Intu no longer own it. Didn't want to move it without discussion as previous moves have been subject to lengthy debate. Jellyman (talk) 07:51, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Support per nom. Heruexquay (talk) 04:43, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Conditional support per nom given renaming the article is done only once the rebranding has actually been completed per WP:COMMONNAME ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 09:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.