Talk:Development of Carnatic music

Confusing timeline information

The dates in this article are confusing. For example, under the Contributions to Carnatic music heading this sentence doesn't make sense:

In South India, around 1200 BC, that is around 800 years ago, a scholar by name “Shaarjnadeva” wrote a treatise, which was named as ”Sangeeta Ratnakara”.

1200 BC is about 3200 years ago... A Moondragon 00:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 It's "1200 AD" not "1200 BC" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangita_Ratnakara  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.208.154.204 (talk) 02:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 18:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

At this stage the Karnataka/Carnatic music website does not warrant merging into other sites. It is being built based on validated facts about Karnataka Music of present day which was started during Purandara Daasa days. This site acknowledges that there were some forms of music before Purandara Daasa but based on verifiable facts it considers the formal form Karnataka music AKA Carnatic music started only after the father of Karnataka music, Purandara Daasa. ‘/’ had to be introduced since web did not allow to create other titles, however to date system has not complained.- naadapriya —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naadapriya (talk • contribs) 21:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Karnataka/Carnatic music appears to be a subset of this article and I suggest should be merged or redirected here. The slash in the title is contrary to guidelines (WP:MOS#Slashes and WP:MOS#Article titles). ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

At this stage the Karnataka/Carnatic music website does not warrant merging into other sites. It is being built based on validated facts about Karnataka Music of present day which was started during Purandara Daasa days. This site acknowledges that there were/are other forms of music before/after Purandara Daasa but based on verifiable facts it considers the formal form Karnataka music AKA Carnatic music started only after the father of Karnataka music, Purandara Daasa. In addition this site is specfic for 'classical Karnataka music' than general 'Music of Karnataka'. ‘/’ had to be introduced since web did not allow to create other titles, however to date system has not complained.- naadapriya —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naadapriya (talk • contribs) 22:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the merge proposal. It's not clear what "Karnataka/Carnatic music" covers that isn't part of music of Karnataka - if it is intended to cover some specific subset of "music of Karnataka", then it needs to be moved to a more appropriate title. Tuf-Kat (talk) 07:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Further Justification

I will keep Karnataka/Carnatic site as is since it is a specific stand-alone topic representing only the classical music of South India. There is a difference in use of 'Karnataka' between 'Karnataka/Carnatic music' and 'Music of Karnataka'. In 'Music of Karnataka', Karnataka stands for specific music style, in 'Music of Karnataka', Karnataka stands for the state of Karnataka. Note that Karnataka Music existed way before the state of Mysore was renamed as the state of Karnataka. Naadapriya —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naadapriya (talk • contribs) 21:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

How is that article's scope different from Carnatic music? Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Naadpriya's logical justification to keep this site separate. He is adequately qualified in music to provide the justification- knataka —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knataka (talk • contribs) 05:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I came here after reading this. I am sure that the scope of both the pages are different - there is difference between Carnatic music and Music of Karnataka. Any merger would tantamount to something like merging Hindustani music with Music of India! --Bhadani (talk) 15:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Please explain what the difference is. Tuf-Kat (talk) 15:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bhadani. Music of Karnataka covers various topics such as Carnatic music, Hindustani music, other devotional/light music and can even extend to topics on harvest music etc. Carnatic music, although called Karnataka Sangeetha Shastra (a nomenclature that came into existance due to the innovations and progress made during the reign of Vijayanagara Empire), is shared by all four southern states.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 18:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

So it sounds like Karnataka/Carnatic music is meant to be about Carnatic music in Karnataka. Is that correct? If so, that's what the article should be titled. Tuf-Kat (talk) 21:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the article Carnatic music is meant to be about Carnatic music in South India which comprises of four states. However, if one wishes, one could create a seperate article called Carnatic music in Karnataka, take sections of the existing Carnatic music that pertains only to Karnataka and elaborate on it. Dineshkannambadi (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

More Justification to keep Karnataka/Caranatic' site independent

Thanks to all for responding about the merger. I agree with statements Bhadani, Dineshkannambadi and others which support to keep the site independent. As it is reiterated, I strongly agree that Karnataka music which came to existence after revolutionary works and inventions of Sri Purandara Daasa and associates in mid 14th century is not specific to Karnataka state which is the replacement of the name Mysore State in 1964. The use of ‘Carnatic music’ for Karnataka music came about 2 centuries after Karnataka music came to existence. Though there is a controversy in using name ‘Carnatic Music’ but there is no controversy in using Karnataka Sangeetha/Sangeethm/music. Instead of trying to undo things the site Karnataka/Carnatic supports the use of both the names for now. It is important for all to know that Karnataka music and a parallel name ‘Carnatic music’ used way later are the same. Based on the verifiable facts this site focuses on the formal form and following developments of Karnataka music that came into existence during Vijayanagara empire. Finally this site is about ‘Karnataka Music’ for the world not specific for Karnataka music of Karnataka State.

Wish you all a happy, peaceful and prosperous NEW YEAR

Naadapriya (talk) 01:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a warning if the tag is removed again, the users will be blocked for an indefinite period of time. Discussion will be continued at Karnataka/Carnatic music as that is where the merge may be made. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

People seem to be misunderstanding the options here. The article currently titled Karnataka/Carnatic music can not stay where it is - this would violate the Wikipedia Manual of Style, as the slash indicates a subpage, a specific type of page that is not allowed in article space. As a general rule, the title of an article should describe, in plain English, the article's scope; "Karnataka/Carnatic music" is not plain English, does not communicate the article's scope and isn't even really a coherent title to begin with. Nobody seems to be able to explain what that article is about in a way I can understand, but in any case, that article can not remain Karnataka/Carnatic music, either the content must be merged elsewhere or the article renamed. Those are the only two options.

I'm trying to understand Naadapriya's comment, and now I'm guessing that it is about a style of music called "Karnataka music" that evolved during the Vijayanagara empire (which is not synonymous with the state currently called "Karnataka"), and that later came to be grouped under the broad term "Carnatic music". Is that correct? If so, the correct title would be "Karnataka music in the Vijayanagara Empire" or something similar.

If that's not correct, then I don't mean to be rude, but do you know someone who speaks English better and understands your position? We're not communicating effectively here... Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Lets keep it simple.

Carnatic music-->Remains as is. Covers developments from over a thousand years prior to Vijayanagara Empire. Has emerged into its current standardized form during the Vijayanagara Empire which ruled from modern Karnataka. But Carnatic music has also been vastly enriched by artists from the entire South Indian region there after, which the British called "Carnatic", the term "Carnatic" covering a larger area than just modern Karnataka state.

Music of Karnataka--->A good article to expand, which covers all forms of music that has prevailed and is prevalent in the region of modern Karnataka state but should exclude artists and artistic developments outside modern Karnataka state. However, musical developments and influences transgress political boundaries, something worth discussing in the article.

Karnataka/Carnatic music--> Not sure what this article tries to achieve. Looks like bits and pieces of Carnatic music.

Karnataka music in Vijayanagara Empire--> An article worth creating, if one does not already exists, discussing the musical treatises and developments from 1350-1565 AD.

thanks,Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Can you define the term "Karnataka music"? Tuf-Kat (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Rebuttal to ‘Let us Keep Simple’

Karnataka/Carnatic music is specific site for Karnataka music that came to the existence after revolutionary and innovative works during Vijaya Nagara Empire time led by Sri Purandara Daasa. There is no evidence for the reason provided that British intended to give a new name ‘Carnatic’ for South Indian Music. The word ‘ Carnatic’ existed before British for other purposes not for music. Many different forms of music have existed since ‘Vedas’ period. That does not mean to say we have to start all websites from that time. ‘Karnataka/Carnatic’ is not bits and pieces of other sites. For e.g verifiable references provided are different than that provided in 'Carnatic Music' website. It is self contained site with valid and verifiable references. As it was said several times it is not limited to ‘State of Karnataka’ It is for ‘Karnataka Music’ even beyond South India. Finally sites are not about keeping 'Simple' they are about providing accurate information with clear and valid boundary conditions.

It is time to get Ready for New Years Eve in US. Have Great Fun. ThanksNaadapriya (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

As I've explained, the current title Karnataka/Carnatic music violates Wikipedia's titling guidelines, and it most certainly does not give "clear and valid boundary conditions". I don't understand what you claim that article's scope is supposed to be - can you point to another English webpage or book that has the same scope? Please also note Wikipedia does note vote - see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, so the number of comments opposing a merge is not really relevant if they aren't participating in the discussion. Tuf-Kat (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sir, questions are repeated for which answers are given either in the discussions or in the site. The website has a crystal clear upper boundary condition about the start of the Karnataka Music and lower boundary condition, ‘status to-day’ with leads to appropriate references. As one can read all who have responded are participating in discussions. Website is about the quality and not the quantity. Also the purpose of the site following the guidelines is to lead to the accurate information than over-filling with information. Wish new valid comment is made if there is one rather than looping.Naadapriya (talk) 09:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You're mistaken. I really don't mean to be rude, but your written English is incomprehensible. Karnataka/Carnatic music does not have a "crystal clear" anything, as it is also not coherent English. 14:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TUF-KAT (talk • contribs)

Hello TUF-KAT, I do not think I am ‘mistaken’. Specific comments to improve English are welcome. Vague and general statements are not helpful. The site is open for all constructive suggestions to continue improvements. Research is being conducted in consultations with experts to replace ‘/’. Currently the site is focusing on accurate information. It will consult language experts for further improvements.Naadapriya (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Merger not needed

Karnataka/Carnatic site need to be kept independent since it addresses a very well defined topic with verifiable references. After visiting other sites cited above it is found that suggested merger is not warranted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.122.99 (talk) 23:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully share the above view. Music of Karntaka has both forms of Indian classical music - Carnatic music and Hidustani music - and famous exponents of the two forms of Music hail from or are in Karnataka. Hence, it is essential that this article on 'Music of Karnataka' be retained and not merged with any other article. The other article on Carnatic Music should also be retained and further expanded.Further, the contibution of Hindustani musicians of Karnataka origin such as Gangubai Hangal, Kumar Gandharva,Bhimsen Joshi, etc., should also be highlighted in the article under a separate chapter of Hindustani Music.

But,please close this controversy and remove the comment on merging.

As an addition, I suggest that the names of the following famous Carnatic musicians of Karnataka be also added under a seperate heading.

1. Royal court musician Belakvady Srinivsas Iyengar (1888-1936)of Belakavady 2. B.S.Raja Iyengar (1900-1980)of Arasikee 3. Thitte Krishna Iyengar (1902-1997) 4. Belakvady Srinivsas Iyengar (1911-2002)of Belakavady 5. Belakvady Varadaraja Iyengar (1912-1988)of Belakavady 6. M.S.Selvapillai Iyengar (1915-1993) of Melakote 7. M.S. Narasimhachar (1919-2004) of Mysore 8. Belakvady Rangasamy Iyengar (1928)of Belakavady 9. Mysore. S. Kishna Iyengar (20th century) 10. Dr. K.Vageesh (1954)of Mysore 11. Dr. K Varadarajan (1958), of Gorur 12. Dr. P.S.Muralidhar,(1956) of Mysore

A reference book to add to the text of both the articles would be "The Place of Srivaishnava Community in Karnatic Music" by Dr.V.S.Samapthkumaracharya of Mysore published by Vedantha Charities, 1397, 4th Cross, Krishnamurthy Puram, Mysore -570004, Karnataka, India. --Nvvchar (talk) 09:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)