Talk:Divine Comedy/Archives/2010

The reference and work cited do not say the Divine Comedy is the best

At the beginning of the article it states: "It is widely considered the central poem of Italian literature, and is seen as one of the greatest works of world literature.[1]"

This is obviously an opinion and the worlds best works are always a sticking point in any Academic Institution. The citation only points to literary professors wiki page that says nothing about the Divine Comedy. I will suggest removing the sentence, if no one objects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.95.168 (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted the change. The article does not say "the best": it says "one of the greatest works", which just means that it is among a (large, if you wish) canon of important and influential literary works. I have not time just know, but even the most cursory search confirms this: see for instance the beginning of the article on Britannica. Goochelaar (talk) 21:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Goochelaar; the statement is WP:CK easily found in many sources (and not in need of further references). The issue has also been addressed before, e.g. Talk:Divine_Comedy/Archives/2007#verifiability. Wareh (talk) 21:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Ditto. Another reference would be nice, but the existing one, which is to a book (The Western Canon) is adequate. -- Radagast3 (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Location of hell

The article states: "in Dante's time, it was believed that Hell existed underneath Jerusalem.[citation needed]"

This is not quite correct. Purgatory was on the opposite side of the Earth - which they knew was a sphere - from Jerusalem. (1) "Dante locates Hell in the center of the Earth." (2) Now center of the Earth is underneath Jerusalem, but then it is underneath any location you wish!

(1) Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy: Purgatory. Vol 4. Verse Translation and Commentary by Mark Musa. Copyright 2000. See page 17 & 18.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DxOanGTM-bQC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=purgatory+jerusalem&source=bl&ots=3sN2EhqUkE&sig=RGl4784sQau3b8NAcrG5OmxsvFY&hl=en&ei=aqvOSo2qGsOSlAf41bSpCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=purgatory%20jerusalem&f=false

Sorry for the long URL.

(2) A Milton handbook,‎ by James Holly Hanford, 1961 edition, page 222.

Maybe the best thing to do is to delete the cause in question. 65.171.235.153 (talk) 03:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC) MCS

If you look at the Ritter image, you will see that Hell is portrayed as a hollow cone, under Jerusalem, with it's tip at the centre of the Earth. - Radagast3 (talk) 07:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

However, I have reworded to clarify, and to remove the unsupported claim that this location of Hell was generally accepted at the time. - Radagast3 (talk) 07:54, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

To be geometrically precise, the axis of the cone passes through Jerusalem (in Dante's telling)CharlesTheBold (talk) 05:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Game Reference?

I have lately been seeing a lot of talk on the game Dante's Inferno (multi-platform)and I think this should be posted on the Divine Comedy page because this game is said to be based on Dante's Story from the Divine Comedy, the developers have said this. Its most probably the gaming version of the divine comedy, even though I must play it yet. I still think this should be posted on the actual page as it took reference from the Divine Comedy.

note: old wiki user from the Guild Wars wiki :)

--200.88.0.109 (talk) 03:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The game to which you refer has a Wikipedia article, and this article is linked (albeit a bit buried) in the appropriate section of Dante and his Divine Comedy in popular culture. This specialized article, in turn, is the full treatment of what we only have a little bit of room for in the main Divine Comedy article: just enough space to mention that the Commedia has inspired countless computer games, and to point to the fuller listing (and discussion: I should point out that the "pop culture" article need not remain a pedestrian list--if you want to write a balanced and referenced survey of computer game treatments of Dante, the relative importance of this release, etc., you would be providing something missing in that section). Wareh (talk) 03:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Its also on Dante's Inferno (disambiguation) which is linked at the top of the page. (John User:Jwy talk) 05:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The recent game has little relation to the poem. For example (according to the review I read) the Devil is supposed to have abducted Beatrice, but in Dante's poem the Devil is helplessly trapped in the lake of ice in Circle 9, and is in no position to abduct anybody.CharlesTheBold (talk) 05:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The inspiration for The Divine Comedy

I think the article should mention that a possible source of inspiration for Dante was Risalatu'l Ghufran by 10th century arab poet al-Ma'arri. I heard that some scholars have expressed this opinion, but I have no official references. However I have read both works, and while not being a trained scholar my self, I do find the similarities striking.

Suggestion from 216.82.220.219

I've moved this from the article and will leave a note for the editor 216.82.220.219.

Might I suggest this? "Dante's Inferno" At the gate of Hell having read the inscription 'Abandon all hope, ye who enter here', Dante and Virgil must be ferried across the river Acheron, the first of four rivers in Hell. Gathered on the near bank are the souls of the dead who did nothing remarkable and as such are condemned to be forgotten. Beyond this area is Limbo (circle one) where the virtuous pagans punishment is disappointment and regret that they had not chosen Christ before they died. Could be compared to Elysian Fields in classical mythology but the inhabitants are frustrated with deep hopelessness. Dante meets Virgil, Plato, some Muslims, and others here. The next four circles punish sins of weakness and are sometimes considered lesser circles. The lustful (circle two) are eternally being swirled in wind guarded by Minos, mythological king of Crete, who has the task of assigning new arrivals in Hell to their allotted place. Dante placed Francesa, Paolo, and Cleopatra here. The gluttons (circle three) are punished by eternally eating slime and muck, guarded by the three-headed dog, Cerberus. The greedy (circle four) are condemned to push boulders around for eternity, guarded by the personification of wealth, Plutus. The fifth circle is the river Styx marsh land (circle five) where the angry or wrathful are submerged, thrashing about in the Styx marsh, being torn apart in the dark filthy water. The lower four circles appear to be inside the bustling metropolis Dis, a walled city but once inside an eerie and deserted graveyard is revealed, where heretics (circle six) are buried in tombs and then set on fire. Violent criminals (circle seven) are segregated into three regions that is guarded by the Minotaur and patrolled by Centaurs. First region, tyranny and violence to others is punished in the river of fire and boiling blood Phlegethon. Second region, violence against oneself is punished on the inner bank of Phlegethon, where people who commit suicide have lost human form and are now trees and compulsive gamblers are chased through the woods by harpies. Third region violence against God or nature (blasphemers, bankers, and homosexuals) are punished in a desert of unbearable heat with meteor showers from the sky. Dante places one of his teachers here, Brunetto Latini for his homosexuality (does this tell us something about Dante? :0. Dante and Virgil cross this desert by walking along the dykes that guide the river Phlegethon towards the center of Hell, where the river flows down a sheer drop and are assisted by Ferryman Geryon, depicted as a beast with a handsome face and scaled body who carries them down into the circle of minor fraud (circle eight). Ten concentric ditches, each of which is home to those guilty of minor fraud, distinctly different from treachery. These ten concentric ditches punish: seduction (forced marching and whipping); flattery (buried in excrement); simony (stuck in fiery wells); sorcery and soothsaying (heads turned backwards); political corruption (submersed in boiling tar); hypocrisy (crushed under lead cloaks); theft (turned into lizards); immoral malicious counsel (fire); sundering (mutilated by demons); deceit and forgery (disease). Most likely when people mention Dante's' Inferno they are referring to these cruel and grotesque punishments of the eighth circle. Dante places Ulysses here for his treacherous Trojan Horse. Also Mohammed, founder of Islam, is punished here for leading many people away from Christianity. Then onto treachery (circle nine), considered the worst form of fraud is eternal home of betrayers and traitors to family and/or country. Circle nine is home of Nimrod and the titans. The forth river of Hell appears to be more of a frozen lake called Cocytus. The traitors are frozen in Cocytus depending on the severity of their treachery, some are completely encased in ice while others have their heads free. In the deepest depths of this circle Dante comes upon Brutus, Cassius, and Judas Iscariot all being eternally chewed by Lucifer. Satan is depicted as a huge but pathetic, constantly crying, three-headed winged demon, unable to move except to beat his wings ineffectually. This is the home of Satan, no wonder he wants the fires of Hell to warm up, it's cold, in circle nine (this not strictly from Dante :) From me as I read, there should not be any copyright issues, but I do not understand the links, need some help there, please.\, and if possible some bolding.

Just wondering..

Is Hell's description within this work cannon to Christianity? Actually, let me rephrase that to avoid a discussion, is Hells description within this work the same as within the Bible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.171.239.69 (talk • contribs) 04:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The answers to both of your questions are no. The Bible contains no real description of hell, so imaginative writers (including Dante and Milton) and theologians have been relatively free to imagine what it might be like—or indeed to reject the notion of a local hell entirely. Deor (talk) 05:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The philosophic basis for Dante's hell is Aquinas' merger of Christian theology and Aristotle's philsophy, and contains numerous ideas not in the Bible. CharlesTheBold (talk) 05:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The poem is an allegory: Dante is not necessarily implying that he thinks Hell is actually organised this way. I've been thinking that perhaps the article lead needs to reinforce this, with wording like: "The poem is an allegory: on the surface it describes a journey through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven; but at a deeper level it represents the soul rejecting sin and turning towards God" or something similar. -- Radagast3 (talk) 08:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I've added something along those lines. I hope it clarifies things. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It probably ought to be pointed out in more clear terms that no modern Christian since at least the 19th century has taken the Divine Comedy seriously from a theological perspective. If you want the modern Christian version, read The Great Divorce —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.193.112.148 (talk) 02:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

That seems like a dubious claim: I, for one, have had conversations with theologians who did take it seriously. I repeat that it's an allegory, not to be taken as a literal description of Hell. The theological content of the Divine Comedy is orthodox Catholic theology (e.g. Trinity, Incarnation (Christianity), Seven deadly sins), and still valid for Catholics today. Much is valid for Protestants as well. The cosmology has dated, but that's another story. -- Radagast3 (talk) 02:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Radagast and am certain that on any given day there are many Christians taking Dante's allegory seriously (as allegory and as mystic vision, of course, not literally). Just to throw out a quick example, Moevs' excellent book The Metaphysics of Dante's Comedy was published by Oxford UP in 2005 in a series sponsored by the American Academy of Religion. I hope no one will accuse me of confusing "modern Christians" with religious scholars, but it makes the point that the serious religious content of Dante's work remains a subject of discussion (it's harder to find WP:RS for its use devotionally, of course). Wareh (talk) 15:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Wait wait, you're telling me Catholics actually believe that hell has seven specific circles, specifically reserved for people who have committed the seven deadly sins? I mean, certainly Christians believe in the trinity, the incarnation and that the seven deadly sins are, in fact, sins, but none of that had anything to do with Dante. We don't get those ideas from the Divine Comedy. Really, what I meant was that no one takes the details of the Divine Comedy seriously. People who look for symbolism enough will usually find it, but no one seriously believes that you can escape hell by progressing through seven circles and sliding down Satan's leg! --134.193.112.148 (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The doctrine of the seven deadly sins doesn't come from Dante, but Dante does a good job of explaining and illustrating the theology of sin. I think what you mean is that no one takes the surface level of the Divine Comedy seriously, because it is, after all, an allegory. And, if you read closely, you'll see that the Purgatorio is divided according to the seven deadly sins, but Dante's Hell is not. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:31, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Primary Topic of Commedia?

see Talk:Commedia#Primary topic if you are interested in this topic. (John User:Jwy talk) 22:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Things to do

We can still use some additions to the Thematic concerns section of this article, for themes which run across the whole poem. Political concerns are the obvious big one, but I don't feel I know enough about Italian history to write such a section myself. Dante's view of the Church would be another possibility. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:39, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice to have the original Italian version alongside English quotations.--93.48.151.158 (talk) 12:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

We certainly do that in Papé Satàn, papé Satàn aleppe, an article focussed on precise wording; but in most cases I don't think it would help the typical reader much. -- Radagast3 (talk) 12:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Reading of Divine Comedy

I added a link to my web site with the full reading of the Divine Comedy, but moderators think that it is unappropriate advertising or personal promotion. I am aware that the page is my own web site, but it is not a commercial web site, and even if I have a professional preparation as actor, actually I work as programmer. I added the link because this full reading is a huge work that I think would be appreciated by wikipedia users. The quality of the readings is almost professional, better of other free readings that I found on the Internet. To be compliant with Wikipedia, I add in the page footer the CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 logo. Everyday I have hits on that page form Google, from all the world. As I complete all the readings, I just would like to share it with Wikipedia users. The Divine Comedy is composed by 100 poems of 140/150 lines each, so the whole work is 620MB in size. This is the reason why I directly linked my page instead of upload each single MP3 file in Wikimedia.

If the presence of my name in the link is annoying, I may prepare a "special page" where my name appears only in the url (as the domain name), but as the CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 states, I have the right to be aknowledged as the author of the reading. To avoid that my initiative appears as a form of personal promotion, I hope that somebody else would listen to my recordings and judge they worth the link in the "Divine Commedy" voice. Iacopovettori (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that someone else listens to the recordings and adds the link (Iacopo Vettori reads the complete Divina Commedia in Italian, MP3), so that it won't be "self-linking"?

That seems reasonable, although there may still be people who object because (a) it's a personal website and (b) the instructions are in Italian. Has Italian Wikipedia accepted the link? -- Radagast3 (talk) 22:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I hope that somebody else will add the link. If it may help, I can do a customized english page without all the images and menus that appear in all the rest of my web site. The use of a personal web site is due to the format of files MP3 and the dimension of all the files, (100 files of 6 / 7 MB each) that will need a lot of work to convert and upload in Wikimedia. Currently, I added the link in Italian Wikipedia and Spanish Wikipedia. They let there the link. Maybe nobody has noticed it yet, but I hope that at least the italian editors had valued it as a good quality source. I did the job with this intention. Iacopovettori (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If the instructions were in English, I would add it. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I prepared a very sober page in english, just the titles and the CC BY NC SA 3.0 with the relative fields. You can check it at address http://www.iacopovettori.it/recitazione/commedia/en/Default.aspx . I hope this will be consider acceptable by other editors also. Many thank for your suggestions. Iacopovettori (talk) 01:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I have added the link as a useful resource; there seems to me no valid reason not to have it. Personally, as an English reader, I find it very interesting to find out how the original sounds: thank you for making this available. -- Radagast3 (talk) 09:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your appreciation. -- Iacopovettori (talk) 09:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

My two cents

My two cents. Having JUST read the Inferno, I have to state that it had as much to do with Christianity as "Jesus Christ Superstar" had to do with the New Testament. Dante's work, if you can get past the rather inflated sense of self and read it as a serious attempt at a search for objective truth, pretty much REJECTS Christ and the concept of forgiveness of sins, and treats "evildoers" much the way the Old Testament did. In several episodes, Dante openly mocks the residents of hell, and in one instance, his "guide', Virgil, who is nowhere in the Bible, gives a ride on his shoulders like a winning football coach for really letting Pope Nicholas III, who is in hell for pursuing wealth while alive, have the brunt of his contempt. In fact, most of Dante's hell is populated, not by humans, but by mythical creatures from Greek and Romal mythology, something no serious Christian would do. On a second note, I noted there were no children or even adolescents in Dante's hell, and the vast majority are Dante's own personal enemies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.166.199 (talk) 21:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Your are forgetting the historical context of the piece, and superimposing modern protestant Christian interpretations of Christianity in such a reading. Also, on Wikipedia we have a policy which allows WP:No Original Research, so unless you find a scholar supporting such a reading, we cannot include that position in this article. I would suggest a survey of Medieval Catholic Theology and practice and Medieval scholarship, to better understand this piece. Cheers! Sadads (talk) 22:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

There's also the point that those in Dante's Hell have "of forgiveness lost all hope" (Purgatorio, Canto I). Indeed, even in modern protestant Christian interpretations of Christianity, those in Hell have no forgiveness of sins. Later in the Purgatorio, Dante has the prayer "Even as we forgive all who have done / us injury, may You, benevolent, / forgive, and do not judge us by our worth." And, of course, most of Dante's theology is in the Paradiso. -- Radagast3 (talk) 08:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

"at the surface level the poem is understood to be fictional"

i feel this sentence is biased towards atheism and should be changed to "at the surface level the poem's description of Heaven Purgatory and Hell is contrary to modern theological views" or something similair as saying that the struggle for your soul to reach heaven being fictional could be taken as highly offensive and is also contrary to the views of millions of people, need to reach a consensus though as i have had 2 revisions reverted and dont want to be accused of edit warring —Preceding unsigned comment added by -ross616- (talk • contribs) 15:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

if there are no replies in the next 24 hours i am just going to change it again and refer any dissenters to this page -ross616- (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope, you will not. Besides, talk pages are not meant to be instant response forums, you need to give people at least 3 or 4 days to respond to questions before you go to fast in changing something.

In regards to your comment about atheism, the fictional part is the account in the poem by Dante, not heaven and hell themselves. Reading that section, I see now the question of the existence of heaven or hell doesn't even arise, only the fictionality of the description. (Which by the way are debatable even within more catholic/orthodox (notice lower case) versions of Christianity, which ocelate from views of a defined heaven and no hell but only purgatory to very strict definitions of what heaven and hell are.). Please give it a little bit of time, there are a fair number of editors who watch this page, though all of them are not active every day (especially on weekends). Sadads (talk) 19:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec - but similar sentiment) Saying that "at the surface level the poem is understood to be fictional" seems to be saying "most people understand that Dante did not walk through these places and experience what the poem describes." That does not support atheism. If it were to say "most people understand that the soul does not end in hell or heaven after death" or something like that, then you might have an argument. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 19:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

well in that case I think it needs clarifying so that it is evident that that is what it is talking about -ross616- (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a rewording to be accepted by the community which follows this page in order to reach a consensus?Sadads (talk) 23:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

as I said in my first post, I think "at the surface level the poem's description of Heaven, Purgatory and Hell is contrary to modern theological views" is clearer than simply saying it is fiction and would avoid possible insult, although whether you think this is acceptable is another matter (although I have been a member of Wikipedia for quite some time I have always been more of a "casual" editor if you know what I mean, and occasionally don't realise what is or isn't against policy)-ross616- (talk) 00:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Certainly, we can help. The problem is you can hardly call the Divine Comedy a deliberate theological statement, therefore it would be our own interpretation of the nature of the Divine Comedy which leads to such a statement. In fact, I believe, sources I have seen treat it primarily as a piece of fiction. My concern is that we are drifting into the WP:Original Research realm when we bring up theology. I also believe the source for that statement gives us such a direction towards treating it as a fictional account. See the quote which is attached to the source for that sentence "the key fiction of the Divine Comedy is that the poem is true." By bringing up any form of theology that is Original Research. I would suggest that just rewording the sentence to "At the surface level, the poem clearly is a fictional account of Heaven, Purgatory and Hell" which firmly discounts any thought that he is presenting an actual theological position, but instead focuses on the "fictionality" of the account. Sadads (talk) 00:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems fine to me, and apologies if I inadvertently stepped out of line :P -ross616- (talk) 01:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

No toes stepped on I assure, simply misunderstanding of your intention by myself and others. The solution is a matter of clarifying what is fictional, the account not any other matter dealt with by Dante. Your initial proposition seems to over react in the other direction adding additional implied meaning which through us off. Neutrality should be the focus, not defense of ones own opinions, Sadads (talk) 01:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

ok well thank you for setting me straight, and neutrality was my intention, at the time I did not realise that I could be implying something else but I will be sure to keep this in mind in future edits -ross616- (talk) 01:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Immediate Reception

Do we have any sources other than Chaucer on the immediate reception of the Divine Comedy in Dante's life and immediately afterward?Alexandergreenb (talk) 14:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

In 1317, a Bolognese notary, a certain Tieri di Giano degli Useppi, quoted two lines from the Inferno on the cover of one of his registers ("Vuolsi così colà dove si puote / ciò che si vuole, e più non dimandare", 3.95-96 ["It is so willed where will and power are one, and ask no more", according to Princeton Dante Project translation]; by the way, these lines are the same of 5.23-24).

This is the first source on the reception of the Commedia. In 1362, Giovanni Boccaccio wrote "Trattatello in laude di Dante" ["Little treatise to praise Dante"] about Dante's life and works, including the Commedia; in 1373, Boccaccio delivered lectures on the Commedia in the church of Santo Stefano di Badia in Florence. Giulio.Colombo (talk) 06:40, 29 December 2010 (UTC)