Talk:Dongmyeong of Goguryeo

--Jettd42291 22:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Untitled

I am going to add a section on the Drama about Jumong that is airing in Korea right now to show how his legacy is reaching Koreans now.

never mind, didnt see the link to the drama.--Jettd42291 22:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

u better update da page abou the drama. add some spoilers. Episode 21 was da bomb!! Jumong whooped Daeso and Young-Po's ass in the archery contest.. whew!! dat was amazing!!.. sorry.. i'm a Jumong fan.. hehehe.. User:Krnprideboi 04:25 PM, 2 August 2006 (EST)

Dongmyeong is not his temple name

Only Emperors/Kings of Goryeo, Joseon and Great Han (Korean Empire) has their own temple names in Korea, so King/Emperor Dongmyeong had not his temple name. Dongmyeong is posthumous name. — Yes0song 13:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow

Who is the dipwad, halfwit who inserted information from the Jumong MBC TV series??? ITS DRAMA. INCREDIBLY ELABORATED. Can't you see it is a historical fiction? There are VERY FEW records of Jumong. His life is almost a mystery, and I was SHOCKED to find a Korean editor shape a Wikipedia article off a MBC drama. The story writer of this drama has even admitted its shortage of a true factual storyline. Wikipedia is not a place to incorporate fictional drama into. I believe we have gone over this stone age issue with the debate over today's gaming portrayal of the Turtle Ship. There is no more we can add to the article at this point, unless one of us is able to find some feasible evidence. Oyo321 06:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

grrrr

his temple name was chumosungwang. Dongmyungsungwang is a modern coinage. know your history, folks. Odst 04:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Never heard of that name before...do you have a reference? Oyo321 02:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Renaming

Jumong is a much more common name than Dongmyungsungwang, and the name itself is very hard for readers who don't know Korean or aren't familiar with Korean history. Also, as far as coherence with name of articles on other kings of Goguryeo is concerned, I'd say Jumong is a special case, considering that he is the founder and his story also incorporates many mythical elements. If anything, he was an ancestral "god" much like Dangun, and his story a mythology, not an actual account of history. Cydevil 13:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Dongmyongsungwang is actually more common; Jumong has just been reintroduced with the gracious help of MBCs now ended drama "Jumong." Oyo321 02:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Current article name "Dongmyeongseong of Goguryeo" is inappropriate becasue 'Seoung' means greatness and describe king which is next character. So his name can say "Dongmyeong" or "Dongmyeong the great king" or "The Great King Dongmyeong" or just simple "King Dongmyeong (of Goguryeo)". This problem comes from misunderstanding of Chinese grammar. --Alf 03:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved this article to King Dongmyeong of Goguryeo . 東明聖王 can be translated into "The Great King Dong-Myeong" of Goguryeo. 聖 (Seong) is not a part of name. --Alf 08:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You are WRONG. It is "The Bright(明) Holy(聖) King(王) of the East(東)". You are messing up the name with different king with title Dongmyeong of Buyeo. Roll it back. Kadrun (talk) 02:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The page name should be "Dongmyeong of Goguryeo." See all other king articles. "King" is not necessary. MShoPar 18:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I cannot move the article. Can someone else do this?

Also, can someone make a "Monarchs of Korea" list box for Joseon, Goryeo, etc., like for Goguryeo? Thanks. MShoPar 18:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think King Dongmyung of Goguryeo is a good name since Dongmyungseongwang is left out and "wang" is Korean for king. Good friend100 00:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Please fix all the redirects, as many double and triple redirects have been created. If a page is moved, it is up to the mover to change all these links. I have fixed the major ones, but there are tons more. SKS2K6 08:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ya'all messed up his name. Nobody dared to look at Korean history book Samguksagi!

Vandalism

Someone tried to be funny and wrote, "King Jumong went to Palestine and died." I don't know who wrote such bs, but let's make sure nothing like that ever happens again. This is wikipedia, a source of accurate information. NOT a site of parody or stupidity. --Kprideboi 22:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right there, boyo! --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Many updates to this article!

I Wonder:

since a Korean TV series (Jumong) that has been recently finished is the reason for so many of the updates to this article, and those that are subsequent, as I see many are related to the series itself, and seem to be fact. Are there any valid outside resources that can relate that the changes made have a modicum of veracity? I personally don't think that a TV series should be used as a historical reference unless in fact, it in itself, has been made in such a way and referenced to its original sources, as fact.

Tom —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tommy6860 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

OMFG

Who is the freakin retard (And disgrace for a Korean) That uses the freakin Jumong Tv series as a freakin reference, for this article??? same goes for the biryu, onjo, and yuri articles that were mesd up by that retard... The tv show was stupid, retarded, repetitive, fake, and ethnocentric-nationalistic. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ARTISTIC LICENSE AND REAL HISTORY! Those who edit wikipedia for only their sheer and stupid sense of pride for Korea should leave! [I apologize in advance for any tears that are about to be shed]

Odst 00:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

So I guess there is nothing stupid about the whole "egg" thing then? 103.5.134.172 (talk) 21:49, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

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Regarding Habaek

I went through all the sources but none of them equate Habaek to Hebo, the god of the Yellow River. The only thing of note about Hebo is a mention in [one] of the sources that the name was originally used in Chinese mythology.

The sources that were added by the editor(s) equating Habaek to Hebo do not equate Habaek to Hebo.

Here is a translation of a passage from the Encyclopedia of Korean Folk Culture:

하백은 강의 신을 지칭하는 보통명사이다. 중국신화에서 하백은 황하의 신이지만, <주몽신화>에 등장하는 하백은 압록강의 신이다.

Habaek is a common noun to call a river god. The Habaek of Chinese mythology is the god of the Yellow River, but the Habaek from the Jumong legend is the god of the Amnok River.

The sources also mention an alternate interpretation of Habaek, which I'll be including in my edit. Bamnamu (talk) 22:20, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Title is wrong.

It's Dongmyeongseong. Dongmyeong is King of Buyeo. Kadrun (talk) 02:09, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

1) Seongwang is a title like daewang or taewang. A more accurate title for this article would be "Holy King Dongmyeong of Goguryeo", but we do not include titles as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Royalty.

2) Dongmyeong (of Goguryeo) is also called "동명" and "동명왕" in Korean historical records. You can confirm here and here (Please use the search engine.)

3) Chumo is also called "추모성왕" in Korean historical records. You can confirm here.

4) There should be no confusion between Dongmyeong of Goguryeo and Dongmyeong of Buyeo because the title of this article is "Dongmyeong of Goguryeo" not "Dongmyeong of Buyeo".

Bamnamu (talk) 03:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Seong-wang means Holy King. Dong (東, East) Myeong (明, Bright) Seong (聖 Holy) Wang (王 King). Someone translated Dongmyeong as Holy King of the East, which is wrong. It should be Bright King of the East. Anyway, the correct title is Dongmyeongseong, the Bright Holy King of the East. I would say Dongmyeong the Holy of Goguryeo is the correct term for English.

〔19년(B.C. 19)〕 가을 9월에 왕이 돌아가시니[升遐] 이때 나이가 40세였다. 용산(龍山)에 장사지내고 동명성왕(東明聖王)이라 불렀다. It says Goguryeo gave him title Dongmyeongseong after his death. The title should be Dongmyeongseong of Goguryeo and write also known as Dongmyeong of Goguryeo on description instead.

Chumo the Holy King. Simple as this. But it was usually Chumo-wang (King Chumo). You can add others in front of wang such as 패(霸)왕 (Pae-wang), 대왕 (Dae-wang), etc. We translate 대왕 (Dae-wang) as the Great King or the Great. Do we ever call Alexander the Great as King Alexander? Also Seong (聖) is a very honored title in Asian culture, and neglecting it doesn't make sense at all. Maybe we can just say Dongmyeong the Holy? We call 세종대왕 as Sejong the Great, not even translating Sejong part. I think Dongmyeong the Holy of Goguryeo would be the better term.

It also relates with Baekje's claim of their relation with Dongmyeong-wang, and nobody knows for sure if this means Dongmyeongseong of Goguryeo or Dongmyeong of Buyeo, or even Dongmyeong of Goguryeo. It is still possible Dongmyeongseong and Dongmyeong are given to different people as it doesn't clearly state. Also the legend of Goguryeo and Buyeo matches exactly, and people confuse with similar names.

Kadrun (talk) 05:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

이상을 보건대 고구려에서 시조는 주몽으로 불리었고, 부여 시조 동명과는 구별되었다. 그런데 후대의 국내 문헌(③)에서 주몽은 동명성왕으로 전한다. 그러므로 어느 시기에 주몽에게 그러한 왕호가 부여되었음을 알 수 있다. 구체적인 시점에 관해서는 5세기 이후(노태돈, 65쪽), 장수왕 시기(조경철, 8~9쪽), 5~6세기(강경구, 334~336쪽), 문자명왕 시기(이원배, 22쪽), 7세기 초(600) 『신집(新集)』 편찬 시(임기환, 28쪽)로 설이 엇갈린다. So despite the time may vary, scholars agree the title Dongmyeongseong was given to him at some point of time. [1] Kadrun (talk) 05:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

…東明感氣踰㴲川而開國 朱蒙孕日臨浿水而開都 威漸扶索之津力制蟠桃之俗… this is from 702 AD. It defines Dongmyeong and Jumong as different person. And this is going to get super messy as more information is added. You have to treat Dongmyeongseong and Dongmyeong different. Kadrun (talk) 05:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

New idea, is anyone would disagree with changing the name to Dongmyeong the Holy (or Dongmyeong the Holy of Goguryeo)? By this way, it would include Seong 聖, and define 聖王 as the Holy. This is equivalent calling Daewang (大王) as the Great, rather than the Great King. Kadrun (talk) 07:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Go for it.

Bamnamu (talk) 08:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Question: Dongmyeongseong is the temple/posthumous name given to Jumong before Samguk Sagi was written. During when Goguryeo existed, the highest title Jumong had was the Holy, written in the tombstone that was created during Jangsu's reign. thus it was Chumo-Seongwang or Chumo the Holy in English. The first nation to follow the Chinese dynasty way of naming among Korean kingdom was Silla while Goguryeo and Baekje did their own stuff. Therefore, do we have to make t he article as Chumo the Holy to follow the best pronunciation or record, or Dongmyeong the Holy as recorded much after? The tombstone is the actual evidence while Samguk Sagi is indirect evidence. We can also drop (Goguryeo) since Chumo, when used as pronoun, is basically the unique name just for this person. (talk) 07:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

References

I'm going into the rabbit hole

I have been digging information seriously for while, and found a HUGE rabbit hole, thus I had to jump in and see how far this wonderland will go. If someone sees mistake on pronunciation, please correct. Also, please do not try to change name of the places quickly, since we are covering the history part (see it as 2000+ years ago). Everyone is welcome to bring the sources, but please be neutral as possible. For example, everybody was considered as tributary or under rule in Chinese dynasty point of view.Kadrun (talk) 10:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Real Name

Chumo is the name used by Goguryeo officially. The highest title, the Holy, was recorded from the Tombstone of Mo Duru Korean: 모두루; Hanja: 牟頭婁, who was a noble during Gwanggaeto period and died during Jansu. BTW, this is one of proof that last name Mo (牟) among Korean existed prior to naturalization of 牟慶 during fall of Northern Song. In the tomb, he explains his ancestor(s) came from Northern Buyeo with Chumo, and has been serving Goguryeo from generation to generation since then. What will be the influence of 牟 family outside of Goguryeo and Buyeo? He was appointed as the ambassador (大使者) to Northern Buyeo, where his ancestor and Chumo came from, by Gwanggaeto, which he thought as a honor. Anyone want to find any relation between Korean (or Buyeo) 牟, Chinese 牟, and Japanese 牟 clan, if there is any? Kadrun (talk) 10:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Similar myths everywhere

All kingdoms that are related to Buyeo shares similar stories. Samguk Sagi version is the mixture of every version altogether.Kadrun (talk) 03:30, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Chumo was not the first king?

Based on the first hand source, the Tombstone of Yeon Namsan, his last name was changed to Cheon (泉) wrote Dongmyeong and Chumo (Jumong) was different being: Dongmyeong was the creator of the nation while Chumo built the capital. Is this why Tang mentioned history of Goguryeo is 900 years old prior to Goguryeo-Tang war?

Chumo real age

According to Notes on History of the Three Kingdoms (三國志集解), it describes that the reason Xuantu moved to northwest of old Goguryeo in B.C. 82 is due to New Goguryeo, led by Jumong, attacked it. So, Chumo was alive in BC 82, and was capable of create nation and led army against Chinese Han. Old Goguryeo eh? How old really is Goguryeo now? Conventional record of Samguk Sagi regarding Chumo is total BS, as well as other records. History books are full of fantasy.Kadrun (talk) 09:34, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Alternative story

It is officially recognized in Samguk Sagi, telling that there is another variant of the myth. Most of the storyline is the same, but details and late part is very different. If this storyline is true (one of two has to be false), it may lead to the alternative story of Onjo, killing both Soseono and Biryu in order to take over Baekje from Biryu who was actually the first king of Baekje. Kadrun (talk) 03:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems that this part needs to be added again.

His original Goguryeo name, variously transcribed as "Jumong", "Jungmo", or "Domo", translated to "good archer". The first component can be reconstructed as "tywoh-(:둏; 'be good')". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.230.224.218 (talk) 08:50, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Why Chumo?

Dongmyeong is far more commonly used. Dallcomm (talk) 13:36, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

About Jumong

Sources are rather saying Dongmyeong (eg Pratt) or Jumong (most usual). More sources about the English name of this guy should be collected. Pldx1 (talk) 14:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 20 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 02:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

---

Chumo of Goguryeo → Dongmyeong of Goguryeo – Per WP:COMMONNAME. While it is definitely possible that Chumo might have been the "historically correct" and WP:OFFICIALNAME, it is definitely not the most recognizable one. Dongmyeong, also translated as Tongmyong, is the more common name. It is also WP:CONSISTENT with the naming of the other Korean monarchs who are known by their posthumous names rather than their personal names. We have articles titled Gogukcheon of Goguryeo and Gyeongmun of Silla not Ku-bu of Goguryeo nor Ŭng-nyŏm of Silla.

List of example Sources: Met Museum, the Korea Times, KBS World, the Guardian, Establishing a Pluralist Society in Medieval Korea, Historical Dictionary of Democratic People's Republic of Korea, The status of descendants of the Baekje kingdom during Emperor Kanmu's reign, Restoring the Glorious Past: North Korean Juche Historiography and Goguryeo, The Koguryo Foundation Myth: An Integrated Analysis (translated as Tongmyung here) ⁂CountHacker (talk) 10:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 21:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Support per common name argument and evidence. 2806:2F0:83C1:FC7E:15B0:9E54:30C4:9522 (talk) 13:10, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.