Talk:Doug Sahm

Major update needed

This article could use information provided in "Texas Tornado: The Times and Music of Doug Sahm" by Jan Reid with Shawn Sahm, Austin, University of Texas Press, 2010, ISBN 978-0-292-72244-6. There are albums missing from the list and many fellow musicians and collaborators are not named. 72.179.53.2 (talk) 03:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Eric

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Doug Sahm/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 23:58, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• The leads doesn't do a good job of describing why Sahm is notable, and could be cut to at least two-thirds its current length. The first paragraph should be reworked to focus on why Sahm is notable, focusing on the highlights of his career. Then, paragraphs 2 and 3 should give a more chronological biography. The final paragraph should focus on Sahm's contributions and legacy—something that only the final sentence does at the moment.

 Working

Ok, I think you can take a second look at it now.--GDuwenHoller! 20:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• In particular, the portion from "Sahm began singing" to "for other bands" could be trimmed substantially.

 Working

Y--GDuwenHoller! 20:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Hippie" or "hippie"?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• The lead, but not the body, terms the Texas Tornadoes a "supergroup". --Usernameunique (talk) 03:50, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

• Is it fair to call the Grateful Dead and Willie Nelson "associated acts" due to participating in recording sessions together?

Well, I would suggest that the influence that they had on one another is good enough of a reason to include them there. Most of biography books on Willie Nelson, the Grateful Dead and Doug Sahm mention one another in multiple instances. It truly went deeper than a few recording sessions.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Early life and start in music

• "The Sahm Boys" — Sounds like it was a family affair. Are the other members known?

No other members mentioned, more than likely some other relatives.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Victor worked at Kelly Field Air Force base" — Doing what?

I could not find any specific information about what his father did at Kelly Field. He was a carpenter's helper previously, so I would suggest he was some sort of handyman or janitor.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Worth mentioning that he worked as a carpenter's helper? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "His teacher explained he could not teach Sahm to read music, and the boy could already play by ear." — I'm a bit confused by this. Why couldn't he teach Sahm to read music? And why would Sahm being able to play by ear be a downside?

The teacher turned him down. My interpretation is that he either did not consider necessary to teach Sahm to read music since he could already play anything by ear, or that he simply grew frustrated with the fact that Sahm was just playing without ever paying any mind to sheet music. The biographers were not too specific, but I assume it is normal since it was a few classes or just a simple audition.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "High school portrait of Sahm, circa 1958" — What year (e.g., senior) was he in this photo?

He was 17 years old at the time, close to 18. I would guess he was a senior by then (or maybe junior, last few months). I really can't tell if the age for the grades was different in Texas in the 1950s, nor if my approximation is correct (I'm not American). But I suppose he was a senior.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Cataloged with the number 113 on the label's releases" — What does this mean?

It refers to the catalogue number for the release, which was published as "Sarg 113-45" (reference number to find it in record stores)--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Does the 45 refer to the format, i.e., 45 rpm? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "The same year, Sahm formed his first band, The Kings." — Who else was in the band? What year in school was he at this point?

The Kings, as well as most of his early bands were composed by other high school alumni or people he knew around San Antonio. He was really the only permanent member, as he would change musicians often. Sadly, I don't think their names are reflected in any source. There are recordings, but they just credit Sahm and the band by name.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "consisted of a rhythm and blues with the addition of the West Side tenor saxophone player Eracleo "Rocky" Morales" — This is a bit confusing. Did Morales add the r&b element to it, or was it r&b + Morales? Also, should it be "consisted of a rhythm and blues", or just "consisted of rhythm and blues"?

That was a typo.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Still a but confused as to whether Morales added the r&b element to the band, or if you're making two separate points in the sentence (the band played r&b, and the band added Morales). Also, it's unclear how the word "as" is being used in the sentence. Does it mean "because" or does it instead mean "during the time in question"? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Meanwhile, Sahm performed on guitar six nights a week with Jimmy Johnson's band. Saxophonist Spot Barnett invited him to play at the Ebony rhythm and blues club." — Was he playing at the club with Johnson's band, or by himself?

He did both. Sometimes he would sit in with Johnson's band, sometimes he simply played by himself. Do you think we need to rephrase?--GDuwenHoller!

Might be worth saying something like "Saxophonist Spot Barnett invited him to play at the Ebony rhythm and blues club, where he would play by himself or with Johnson's band." But if you disagree, no worries. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm fronted three bands: The Pharaohs, The Dell-Kings and The Markays." — When?

Interestingly, all at the same time (reflected by his recordings and appearances). Most of them for the period of 1958-1961. That was pretty much the beginning of what happened during the rest of Sahm's history: he would start a band with a name, get bored of it, change names or move to the next lineup.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm was dropped by the Renner label" — Why?

Well, the cited source mentions he was dropped from the label without mentioning why. Sahm's biography in turn just mention his recordings, but no specific reason for his dismissal either. Being one of this small labels, probably it was financially related.--GDuwenHoller! 20:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The Sir Douglas Quintet

• "Meyers attributed Meaux's interest in recording Sahm and himself" — You haven't yet said that Meaux was interested in recording Meyers.

Oh, I saw that as the introduction itself. I rephrased a bit. Does it work now?--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm fronted The Markays, and Meyers the Goldens." — Why is this sentence here? You've already said that Sahm fronted The Markays (and two others—what happened to them?).

It sounds a little confusing, but as I explained above, Sahm would appear with different band names pretty often (you can see the same phenomenon throughout his career, the only exception being the Sir Douglas Quintet). I saw fit to clarify who was fronting which band at that particular event to both, state that Meyers and Sahm did not play on the same band, and to explain that he appeared at this particular event with the Markays. I don't necessarily understand the logic behind having three different band names probably with the same lineup of musicians. But I guess it was just his personal choice.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I like the rephrasing. I had read the previous sentence as talking about who their bands were (generally), whereas the new wording makes clear that it is talking about what bands they were playing with at the specific event. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "the Latino members of the band" — Who?

names added.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "After meeting Sahm in New York City in 1965, Bob Dylan said in an interview he felt the Sir Douglas Quintet would be a commercial success on radio. Dylan and Sahm had met in London while the Sir Douglas Quintet toured England." — Where did they meet first? New York or London?

Corrected.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "After his parole officer allowed him to leave Texas," — When?

Informationn added.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "he decided to move to California with his wife and children." — This is a bit abrupt, given that his wife and children haven't yet been mentioned—and seem a bit out of place, to be honest, with his apparent touring rock and roll lifestyle. Perhaps it's worth mentioning them earlier, rather than waiting until "Personal life".

I found hard to fit it previously, since the sections focus on his music. The problem I see with that is that I would be basically repeating the same information in two different sections. I mentioned his family life briefly thinking that the reader can scroll down to the "Personal life" section if they wanted to know more about his marriage and children. Thoughts?--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• What happened to the band after the arrest?

I reworked an existing sentence now as "A series of appearances with the band in small towns".--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Move to California and return to Texas

• "excluding Meyers" — Why?

Done.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm appeared with his son, Shawn, on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine" — Ditto re his son. Why was his son on the cover, by the way? Worth a fair-use image of the cover?

According to Jan Reid and Shawn Sahm: "For the shoot, Doug wore his cowboy hat, a sport coat, and corduroy pants. Instinctively he grabbed his little boy Shawn, who wore hippie beads and his own cowboy hat, and set him in his lap, reproducing the image of that family snapshot of him perched on the leg of Hank Williams. Readers of the magazine knew nothing of that history, of course." I did not pay any particular attention to why his son was in the cover, but worth mentioning now that you bring it up (now on the article). As for a fair use image, I have nothing against adding one. But the article is properly illustrated and I know Wiki is a little picky about adding copyrighted content as for what was described in another for my articles when removed as "merely for aesthetic purposes" or something along those lines.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Chicano musicians in San Antonio had given him the nickname "Saldaña"" — Why? What does it mean?

According to Reid "They joked with Doug that he was so Mexican he needed a proper name, and they gave him one, Doug Saldaña." No other explanation rather than that one was given. "Saldaña" being a common surname for Mexicans, I guess it was the closest sounding to Sahm.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps Chicano musicians in San Antonio had given him the nickname "Saldaña", joking that he was so Mexican that he should have a Mexican name. But up to you. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "He appeared at the Armadillo World Headquarters and the Soap Creek Saloon." — What are those?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

It's still unclear what they are. Music venues in Austin? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "In 1972, he disbanded the Sir Douglas Quintet" — Why? They haven't really been mentioned in the article since 1966—what were they doing in the subsequent six years?

Fair enough, I added that the release The Return of Doug Saldaña belongs to the Sir Douglas Quintet, and not to Sahm as a soloist.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Why did he disband the band? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Jerry Wexler signed Sahm" — When?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "with his own band" — What/who did his band consist of at this point?

I just chose to change it to "with his own musicians". Comparing the personnel listed on the releases of Doug Sahm and Band and Texas Tornado with that of Shotgun Willie, he picked specific musicians for each recording. Sahm did not have such a thing as a band of regular members, but rather a large number of musicians he knew and he happened to pick from. The only people that were really constant (and reflected by the credits) were Augie Meyers, George Rains and Jack Barber. So, we have again this Sahm habit of having multiple lineups for different occasions.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

The 1980s, the Texas Tornados and the 1990s

• "Sahm released two albums on Takoma Records" — Any details on his signing with Takoma?

Unfortunately, I was unable to find any specifics other than the record reviews and his releases with the label. But no information on the type of contract or money he received.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Their debut release ... their second release" — Can these really be considered "debut" and "second" releases, given their pre-Sonet albums?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "By 1985, Sahm had moved to Canada" — Where/why?

Page numbers added to the citation to clarify he did it after visiting friends in Vancouver.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Was he living in Vancouver? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:36, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "The Texas Mavericks" — Who else was in the band?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "the Austin night club Antone's." — Presumably run by Clifford Antone?

Mentioning that he was a "blues impresario" and that the club was named Antone's should be enough for the reader to make the connection in my estimation.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "the Tex-Mex sound" — "a Tex-Mex sound"?

I think in this case is more proper to go with "the Tex-Mex sound", since we are pretty much referring to the music style that is also called "Tejano".--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "The band toured internationally, appearing in Europe and Japan." — Any other countries besides? "internationally" is also redundant.

Fixed. According to their tour schedule, they were in a number of European countries. Other than that, Japan is the only international date I was able to find. I find it strange that they did not appear in Mexico.--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Worth adding the European countries? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "the Texas Tornados were featured at the first inauguration of Bill Clinton" — Any particular reason for their selection? What part of the inauguration did they play at?

I couldn't find anything related to it rather than brief mentions. I would assume it had to do with their popularity at the time. As for which part of the inauguration, I added a newspaper clipping that reported on their presence at this event--GDuwenHoller! 23:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm and Meyers formed a new version of the Sir Douglas Quintet. It included Sahm's sons Shawn on guitar and Shandon on drums" — Anyone else?

Just them. Backed by the cited Sir Douglas Quintet bio of AllMusic.--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Day Dreaming at Midnight — Album or song?

corrected.--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "complemented his live performances" — What does this mean?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm and the Texas Tornados' song "A Little Bit is Better Than Nada" was featured in the 1996 film Tin Cup." — Was this considered particularly noteworthy? As mentioned, it seems a bit like trivia.

Since the movie enjoyed success, and the Texas Tornados did a videoclip of the song featuring it, I considered it notable enough. I think it reflects that the band had at least some relevance at the time if a Hollywood production featured their music.--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "his debut album My Perfect World" — Burleson's debut album? As written, it sounds like Sahm's.

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm's own label, Tornado Records" — Any more information about the label?

The label was so short-lived, I decided not to expand on it. It released Burleson's album and the posthumous Sahm release The Return of Wayne Douglas. On the entry of the latter, I went in a bit of detail about Sahm's role at the label, but I didn't consider it relevant enough for the bio. Should I reconsider?--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

You might reconsider, even if just in a footnote. It's Sahm's own business venture, so it seems appropriate to discuss in Sahm's biography. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm assembled a band" — With whom?

Added.--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "extended his booking at the Cherry Ridge Studios" — Extended what booking? This is the first time it's mentioned.

Clarified.--GDuwenHoller! 20:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

• "Sahm married Violet Morris" — Who was she/what was her background/how did they know each other?

Added.--GDuwenHoller! 20:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm was classified 1-Y on the Selective Service System" — What does this mean/what are the implications of such a classification?

According to Reid, he "had no worries about the draft in the turbulent years to come". Based on that (and on the table provided by the article that I linked), I assume that though he was elegible to be drafted by the army, the probability was pretty low and thus, he didn't get to go to Vietnam.--GDuwenHoller! 20:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "his fiddle was broken" — passive voice. Any further details (e.g., can it be said that the officers were the ones to break it? Intentionally/accidentally?)?

The officers were emptying Sahm's vehicle of its contents (clothes, cowboy hats, tapes) as they searched for drugs. The fiddle got tossed out and broke in half. I think the way it was described is accurate.--GDuwenHoller! 20:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I would state that the officers tossed the fiddle out of the car, breaking it. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• "The charges were dropped at his trial" — At his trial, or before his trial?

At his trial. The judge heard Sahm, as well as the arresting officers. He pretty much dismissed the case without further do.--GDuwenHoller! 20:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

In that case, "dismissed" is probably the correct word. "Dropped" makes it sound as if the prosecution declined to pursue the case further. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough.--GDuwenHoller! 18:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• "He met future bandmate Augie Meyers in 1953, while he purchased baseball cards at Meyer's mother's grocery store" — This might be better worked into the above sentence "In 1953, Sahm met Augie Meyers, and the two became friends".

Y--GDuwenHoller! 20:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Death

• "lodge cabin" — "log cabin"? Or just "lodge" or "cabin"?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "a brief visit with his son Shawn" — Where?

Added.--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Kachina Lodge Hotel" — Where?

Clarified.--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "across all lines of age, race and social standing" — Needs an inline citation. And whose words?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 13:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• "the station's programming did not match the crowd's expectations" — How so?

Corrected.--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

• "Sahm's presence was described as" — Who described him that way?

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 13:06, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• "In 1974, Sahm was featured in the mural "Austintatious"" — The source doesn't say that Sahm was added in 1974; theoretically he could have been one of the updates.

How about "Sahm was featured in the 1974 mural "Austintatious"?--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Sahm's son and the surviving members of the group toured promoting the album." — Where did they tour?

I think that is more relevant to the entry on the Texas Tornados, rather than Sahm's bio.--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• "at the South by Southwest festival" — Duplicate link, and you don't italicize it above.

 Fixed--GDuwenHoller! 20:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Usernameunique, just a little reminder that I've worked the points. I may be a little slower to reply starting on Thursday because I'm going to be on vacations, but I'll be checking the review in case you come up with new points or you want to do some further work on the ones you already listed.--GDuwenHoller! 18:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the nudge, GDuwen. I've left a few responses above, but am passing the article now; you should feel free to incorporate the comments (or not) when you have time. It was a very good article when I started reviewing it, and (especially with the new lead) even better now. I hope you consider nominating it to be a featured article. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:53, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: I'll absolutely work on those new suggestions and thanks for the kind comments. I'd love to turn it into a feature, though it tends to be an uphill battle usually. We'll see. By now, thanks for your work once again.--GDuwenHoller! 17:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kingsif (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Sahm in 1974

• ... that singer-songwriter Doug Sahm (pictured) was also a multi-instrumentalist who was regarded as a child prodigy playing the steel guitar? We Remember, by Joe Nick Patoski, January 2000

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Marija Trandafil

Improved to Good Article status by GDuwen (talk). Self-nominated at 16:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is new enough, long enough and sourced. Earwig is picking up some matches, but it looks like mostly names and quotes, plus some non-specific phrases. Hook is cited and interesting, and qpq has been provided. Photo is free use, looks nice and is in the article. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:23, 7 August 2021 (UTC)