Talk:Dream Theater/Archive 5

Archive 1

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Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

GA Response

Let's get this rolling, this was a featured article, let's make it so again.

In response to the in line citations, does anyone have Rich Wilson's bio on Dream Theater? That would be a HUGE help to verifying stuff in here. Splent (talk) 04:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not, though I would love one; it's out of print, but I'm keeping my eyes open. What I do own is every (studio) album and DVD they've released. This will be a big project and it will probably take a while. I have classes now so my contribs will be slow, but over the summer I can do a good deal. I gladly offer my services. blackngold29 16:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I think people can still purchase them on his website, but apparently he's working on updating it for another release to include stuff in the last few years, and will re-release it later this fall. Splent (talk) 16:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I own the original Lifting Shadows; I was lucky enough to have pre-ordered it; so, I got to have my name printed in the “Roll Of Honor” section near the end of the book. There is a wealth of info in this book. BigJoeRockHead (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

New Title

Let's just get the title straight. It's Black Clouds & Silver Linings. Not Black Clouds AND Silver Linings. Like Rush's newest is Snakes & Arrows. Not Snakes and Arrows.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Perpetualchange (talk • contribs)

Yup. Sounds good to me. I think the articles were both well written, lol. They've been merged and redirected. blackngold29 04:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify on MP's statement about the sound of BC&SL. He wasn't "asked" about the album, but posted it on his forum. Just a little thing, but I'm going to make the change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.26.87.16 (talk) 09:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Leak

The Shattered Fortress can be added to the list of leaked songs as of around 7 hours ago. Although, I'm positive the band is not happy about it. Not to mention, I'm not sure if news of leaks should belong in an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.57.232 (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

You're correct, unless a WP:RS backs it up, it shouldn't be in the article. blackngold29 15:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Singles.....?

Following a huge number of edits by Miguelito0292, I think a discussion on this matter is valid: what is and what is not considered a single released by Dream Theater? Is there any reliable source on this? For instance, is Home (from Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory) considered a single, either by the band or by any reliable source? I believe this is a matter that we need to clarify in order to avoid more edit batches based on editor's personal opinion. Here are some sources that should be considered on this discussion, and I'd like to hear opinions from the most experienced editors on this matter.

• http://www.dreamtheater.net/disco_dreamtheater.php
• http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=378
• http://dreamtheaterforums.org/discography/page1.html#singles
• http://bootopia.yourmajesty.net/index.php?title=Albums_officiels

Also, on a related topic: for these releases (whether they are singles or promotional releases or whatever they're called), is there any reliable source for their release dates (not only year, but month and day too)? That's an important piece of information their articles must have.

Hetcenus (Talk) 14:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE

The whole first paragraph needs to be updated. --J miester25 (talk) 19:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Music instruction magazine

What's a "music instruction magazine"? (3rd para) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.147.202 (talk) 11:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard them refered to as that, but I would be willing to bet its referencing these magazines. blackngold29 15:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Progressive rock

Since people think that many songs of Dream Theater are "progressive rock" instead of progressive metal, like every album has been labeled under, I will do the exact same thing i did for Killing Joke. i reference the genre from an outside source for conformation. however, if a source is not available to confirm that Dream Theater falls into the genre of progressive rock, far different from progressive metal, then it should not be listed because their albums are labeled under progressive metal. --J miester25 (talk) 03:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Allmusic says both, because they have elements of both. blackngold29 03:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Genres and Discogs.com

We currently have a small edit-war brewing over infobox genres. Right now there are five genres listed, all sourced to Discogs.com which seems a completely unreliable source based on user-generated content. Some of the genres (particularly "speed metal") strike me as dubious and unrepresentative, and I can't find any actual reliable source calling them that. Personally I'd be happy leaving this article simply as "progressive metal" which it was for some time before all this started and seems to be the most common description among reliable sources, but I'd appreciate any other opinions - I think five genres is simply excessive and serves little real purpose. ~ mazca ^talk 22:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

its quite simple. there is a list of each album, which links to each individual album. u click the album, it shows the genres. each genre listed applies to the band, so therefore each genre applies to the genres that Dream Theater falls in. they should be listed. --J miester25 (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

and also, Discogs is not a user-generated site. They have a market, administrators, and copyrights. --J miester25 (talk) 23:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

discogs.com is a user-generated site. I add albums to it quite often. craigslist has a market, administrators, and copyrights. -^Violask8₁₉₇₆ 00:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, Discogs appears to be an user-generated site, and that makes it a non-reliable source, according to WP:RS. Genres added by User:J miester25 should be removed. --Aeternus ^(talk) 17:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Look the reason why i added those in the first place was because people were complaining about progressive rock not being listed. i mean, i only added that because other users couldnt back up their claims. if you can find a better source, by all means go for it.

Allmusic. I'm removing symphonic rock and speed metal though. --Aeternus ^(talk) 12:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:COPYVIO concern

A substantial portion of this page's content is virtually identical to the published content at Dream Theater's website. This applies to the entire History section, and sections 2-5. While the content is well-linked and meets WP:N and WP:V, it may be unnecessarily detailed and, more important, it appears to be a more or less exact copy of the text on the band's website. This should be pared down per WP:COPYVIO. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

AA suite related articles up for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Root of All Evil (song)

I've nominated The Root of All Evil (song), The Glass Prison, This Dying Soul and The Shattered Fortress (but not Twelve-step Suite) for deletion. See the discussion here. Una Laguna^Talk 20:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

In that case, when you conglomerate the 5 articles, include an infobox for each section for each song. --J miester25 (talk) 05:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

New title

The article states that Dream Theater will start recording a new album in January 2011. The citation is a link referencing an interview done to James Labrie. But the title of the article says it is a new SOLO album, meaning it will be a new James Labrie album, not a new Dream Theater album. I haven't read the entire interview myself (it is kind of long) so I may be wrong, but it really seems like this will not be a new Dream Theater album, but a new James Labrie album. If someone could correct this, or let me know if it is indeed a new Dream Theater album (I hope...), that would be great. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.119.178.105 (talk) 03:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Here. From the link. At the moment it is thinking they will, not they WILL be.

After this tour there will be a few dates in Japan that will take place in August. I have a solo album coming up, Mike Portnoy will be playing drums on tour with Avenged Sevenfold and we are pretty much taking a break and relaxing with family until January. After that I’m thinking we will enter the studio and work on a new Dream Theater album. Mrix1985 (talk) 15:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

The business about Entertainment Weekly in the third paragraph

is surely rather trivial to include in the opening section, no? Cynic and Wolves in the Throne Room have been reviewed in the New York Times, it isn't that big of an event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.91.176.244 (talk) 05:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Good Article

I know it was a former good article, but from the looks of it, the article fits all 6 criteria. All the raw links have been fixed, the rate of vandalism because of Mike Portnoy's departure has ended because of the semi-protect, and the article is very well detailed in general. --Andy (talk) 00:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

In a word: no. I'm afraid this article will need a lot of work to get it even close to GA. See WP:WIAGA for the Good Article Criteria:

1. The article fails criterion 1 because the lead section is poor: too much time is spent talking about awards the band members have won, and not enough about the band's musical style and history. There are also too many one- and two-sentence paragraphs which should be merged with other paragraphs to make the article more readable (see the Train of Thought, BC&SL, Live performances and Cover songs sections).
2. The article fails criterion 2. Vast swathes of the article are completely unsourced. The Live performances, Bootleg culture and Cover songs sections are all too long and filled with WP:OR.
3. The article fails criterion 3. The band's musical style is not discussed; the influences section should be expanded to include a description of the band's sound. Do the Live performances, Bootleg culture and Cover songs sections really need to be that long?
4. Probably just scraped criterion 4, although it could do with briefly discussing the reception of each album in the History section.
5. It's stable.
6. The first two images in the History section need to go - they violate fair use. And likewise, what is the purpose of each audio sample? They need to be used sparingly and with a specific purpose.

This list is basically a re-hash of the points I made in the GAR above. Una Laguna^Talk 07:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Cover reception?

"Dream Theater has covered other artists' work throughout their career. During the promotional tour for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, during shows in Barcelona, Chicago and New York City, they covered Metallica's Master of Puppets album in its entirety after a full set of Dream Theater material.[citation needed]

On the next leg of the tour they covered Iron Maiden's The Number of the Beast and received a similar reaction to Master of Puppets, [...]"

Second paragraph says the "Number of the Beast" cover received a "similar reaction" to Master of Puppet, but the first paragraph does not say anything about the Metallica cover: so, what kind of reaction did either receive?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.252.129.42 (talk) 12:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

A lot of the information is either non-notable or original research. The fact that Dream Theater play covers is far from remarkable (name a band that hasn't) - what makes Dream Theater different is that they have covered entire albums. The whole coverage of Dream Theater's live performances needs to be cut down and re-organised. The Live performances, Bootleg culture and Cover songs sections need to be cut down, properly sourced and merged into one section. I do have a copy of Rich Wilson's Lifting Shadows which would make sourcing the section (and rest of the article) much easier, but I've lent it to a friend to read, so won't have access to it for some time. Una Laguna^Talk 17:07, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Musical Style

Alright, I added a "musical style" section. In it, I added that they stress melodic, metal, and prog. I saw some video where Portnoy said this... but I can't remember where! So, please try to find something where this is said... I swear I either heard it or saw it or read it or something. And, if you can, add to the section. Thanks. --Andy^{Speak to Me (Breathe)}_Contribs 02:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Mike Portnoy awards section?

Does this really need to be in here? Since Portnoy left Dream Theater? Ssjgoku75x (talk) 08:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

UPDATE: I moved Mike's award section to the Mike Portnoy wikipedia page and on that page, I blew away the original Modern Drummer awards section and replaced it with the same award section. Ssjgoku75x (talk) 12:39, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"The Spirit Carries On"

The current album title for the next Dream Theater album is right now is entitled "The Spirit Carries On." According to the press release from Mike Portnoy in regards to his quitting of Dream Theater, they started recording a new album in January and it is entitled "The Spirit Carries On." We need some information on that which would be good to add to the article. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 15:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the original press release had a typo of 2010 - per [1] it appears that they are planning to start recording a new album in January 2011. I'm also not convinced that "The Spirit Carries On" is supposed to imply that's the title of it - it may just be making that exact statement in the form of a DT song title. ~ mazca ^talk 17:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

You're mis-reading the press releases [2][3]. The band have said they are starting work on the album in January 2011. "The Spirit Carries On" is only mentioned in passing and not mentioned as the band's next album name. Una Laguna^Talk 17:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I won't link this, because it's disputed on some music forums, but from what I read, the tour, not the album, will be called "The Spirit Carries On." The title itself is one of its more popular, "wave your lighters" (or now "your cellphones") songs from Scenes from a Memory. I would be more than surprised to see them self-plagiarize themselves by using this title for a new album. Black Max (talk) 05:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC) Black Max

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dream Theater/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Una Laguna^Talk 10:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm quick-failing this article because it features numerous issues which I seriously doubt can be adequately dealt with in a week:

• This article features a {{Refimprove}} tag, making it an immediate quick-fail.
• There are many unsourced paragraphs throughout the article, and what looks like some original research in the Live performances section.
• There is no Musical style section, describing the genre of music this band plays. This is essential for an article on a band.
• Violation of Fair Use on the first two pictures in the History section.
• Various stylistic issues: citations aren't properly formatted (see WP:CITE#HOW), and there are many one- and two-sentence paragraphs.

Other things to note:

• In future, please check articles you plan to nominate for Good Article against the Good Article Criteria to ensure there are no major flaws in the article.
• This article was listed as a "Miscellaneous" GAN; it should have been listed under "Music".
• For general comments on improving articles, please use Peer Review in the future.

New Drummer Discussion

There is surprisingly little about the flap about Portnoy's replacement on the page, aside from Portnoy's comments themselves. To a point, this is understandable, as most of what is out there now is rumor and speculation. It should be mentioned, however, that a lot of "informed" sites consider Mike Mangini the latest possibility for Portnoy's replacement, and the hotshot "hired gun" drummer Marco Minnemann will likely not be the replacement. There's also some well-informed discussion about the likelihood that DT cannot yet name a replacement because of legal wrangles (i.e. Portnoy's presumed co-ownership of the name, etc). Again, I won't cite forum links, as the info is all over the map, but it's worth consideration for inclusion. Black Max (talk) 05:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC) Black Max

If details about Portnoy's replacement and the circumstances surrounding them are discussed in reputable sources, this would be worthy of small expansion. However, in situations like these, WP:CRYSTAL provides useful guidance on what information should and shouldn't be included when talking about future events (such as the announcement of the new drummer). A general guideline is to only include information which would still be informative after the event occurs (in this case the drummer's announcement). In short, content which would be made redundant by the announcement of the drummer should not be included, but content which would still be relevant should. Una Laguna^Talk 08:25, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Pertinent to the discussion: http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/news/Dream-Theater---An-Exclusive-Look-into-The-Bands-Search-for-a-New-Drummer-22916.aspx DT apparently intends to make some sort of announcement on 4/21, and is directing people to their Facebook page. The material I named above is most likely not particularly relevant and worthy of inclusion (hence my reluctance to even post links), but this may be. We'll keep an eye peeled. Black Max (talk) 15:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC) Black Max

And it's reasons like that that made Wikipedia as accurate as it is today. We were the most accurate source (compilation) of information during the last two presidential elections. Zephalis (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe it would be justifiable to either create a new section, or a small section leading to a new page about this topic being that it is such a huge event in the band. Anyone else agree? Zephalis (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Dream Theater sales 2011?

In the Dream Theater documentary, it said: "In 2008, Dream Theater has sold over 10 millions albums worldwide." What about now? After the Black Clouds & Silver Linings period? Chrislemur (talk) 10:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Messed up infobox coding?

Am I the only one noticing that the infobox appears as a mess of jumbled code on the article? I know from coming here many times that that should not be happening. Unfortunately, my limited (yet decent) wiki coding skills can't seem to find anything wrong in the coding. Someone want to check it out? --Arkatox (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

And now it seems like someone edited it, but it's still a bit messed up. --Arkatox (talk) 02:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, I handled it myself. Would've been easier if someone else were on to help. :( --Arkatox (talk) 02:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Location/ Origin needs to be changed?

It says the origin of the band is, "Long Island New York". Yet now, only one of the five members in the band are from Long Island now, John Petrucci. Should it be adjusted to be more accurate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.22.231 (talk) 21:43, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The band was founded on Long Island. I believe that is still accurate, as far as origins go. 207.177.213.110 (talk) 13:09, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Mike Portnoy and John Petrucci lead vocals citation needed

Mike Portnoy sings lead vocals on parts of a nightmare to remember, he also sings lead vocals on one song off of the wither e.p., and so does john petrucci. Because of this, i'm removing the citation needed spots on the members list. :P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.84.31.82 (talk) 23:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Dream Theater's best selling album?

"The band's highest selling album is the gold selling Images and Words (1992), which reached #61 on the Billboard 200 charts.... Black Clouds & Silver Linings...entered the US Billboard 200 at #6 and Eurochart Hot 100 at #1, marking their highest entry on either chart."

I don't think I understand. Didn't Black Clouds & Silver Linings sell better than Images and Words, making it a "higher selling album"? 68.193.130.33 (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

No... As far as I can remember, Images and Words sold more than 600,000 copies. --Aeternus ^(talk) 09:59, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

No matter how high BCaSL made it on the Billboard does not make it their best selling album. It was their highest first week sales with over 40,000, but Images and Words surpasses that overall with 600,000+ total. However, Images and Words did not go over 40,000 in the first week sales. --J miester25 (talk) 16:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, how is the 1999 release "Scenes from a Memory" listed as going RIAA GOLD in 2010 without proper citation or evidence? According to the RIAA site listed, their last RIAA Nomination was in 2006 for "Score". To date the only verified GOLD non Dream Theater live Album remains "Images and Words" and there the award should be removed unless a cited source can verify this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.81.83 (talk) 06:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

New picture

John Myung looks really odd in this picture. I believe it should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.84.31.245 (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

It needs to be changed considering that it's not even the damn band. Mike Mangini replaced Mike Portnoy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.230.11.170 (talk) 03:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I would support a band photo with Mangini in, but only if it were in the public domain. We can't use copyrighted, promotional pictures of living people - see WP:NFC#UUI. With some luck, someone should be able to get a suitable shot of them on one of their upcoming tour dates. Until then, we'll have to put up with an out-dated picture. Una Laguna^Talk 06:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

If someone would like to help, he/she could merge existing photos of Dream Theater members into one photo (something like this, or else). --Λeternus ^(talk) 19:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

New Band Photo With Mangini

I believe a new photo of the band with their new lineup (Mangini) is long due. I would recommend some of Rick Wenner's photos, which are great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SovereignDream (talk • contribs) 05:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Are they free to use? --Λeternus ^(talk) 11:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

If his work isn't copyrighted so that they can't be used on Wikipedia then one of those would be a good option. If not we'll have to keep looking. Burbridge92 (talk) 22:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Dream-Theater-with-Mike-Mangini.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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New Website, Broken Links

The band renewed their website, which means that old links under "dreamtheater.net" might be broken. MagicWord (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Steve Stone

The article seems to suggest that Steve Stone was officially the vocalist for Dream Theater for a short period in 1990. If that is the case why is he not included in the former members? Regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 17:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't. He was the vocalist for one gig. He was also one of 4 or 5 vocalists who recorded a few demos with the band, but was never officially promoted as the lead singer, as he was fired literally hours after that first gig. Splent (talk) 20:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Underground?

The introduction to the article refers to the band as having 'mostly stayed underground for their career'. While they're obviously not the most popular mainstream band ever, they're hardly underground either. I don't see how a band most of whose albums have charted reasonably, and that's signed to Warner could be described as 'underground'. Jh39 (talk) 19:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. "Underground" does indeed have something of a variable definition, but they aren't really it: they may not have set the singles charts or mainstream radio on fire, but they've had a good set of pretty high selling albums and large-venue concert tours. ~ mazca ^talk 22:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

If the band still wants to be considered Underground, then they are. --J miester25 (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree here. Mike Portnoy can go out and scream "we want to be considered hip hop!", but that wouldn't change a thing, at least here. --Aeternus ^(talk) 15:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

They're clearly neither mainstream (according to the definition in Mainstream) nor underground (according to the given definition in Underground music), which is even ready to grant underground status to all forms of extreme metal, however, which I can see raising further problems ...), but could be described as having a subcultural or cult following instead. They depend on their fan community, which is indicative of a lack of mainstream status and also recognition. (Of course, there are differences from country to country as well: a band can be mainstream in one country but obscure in others, for example.) Where does the mainstream end? Metallica, Korn, Disturbed, Slipknot, Linkin Park, Megadeth, are they all mainstream (in the US)? There's no question when it comes to Evanescence, Nickelback or Alanis Morrissette, I guess, but I've heard that even alternative/nu metal bands are not really that mainstream in the US. There may be rules of thumb – when you regularly appear in the Mainstream Single Top 40, if not Top 10, of a country (at least with every lead single of every album), you are solidly mainstream there, I'd say. Mainstream/underground is obviously an oversimplifying dichotomy – it would be nice to have an intermediate category, though, for major bands who make a living off their music, but are still supported exclusively by a subculture or cult following. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant links

Hi. In the Tours section, there are 2 links that doesn't take to the content they're claiming to link to. The first item, Majesty Shows, is redirecting to the Dream Theater page, the page itself. The second link is the Metropolis 2000 link, which is linking to the information about the DVD, and not the TOUR as the section says; on the DVD page, there's no information about the whole tour, only the last show. I recommend remove the link from Majesty Shows and from Metropolis 2000. There are links for both pages all over the band wiki. Dnishimura (talk) 18:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

John Arch was NOT Turned Down

Hey, John Arch was NOT turned down.... He auditioned, but became somewhat homesick and decided the situation wasn't for him at that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.142 (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

May well be true, but needs authentication. Black Max (talk) 05:12, 15 April 2011 (UTC) Black Max

These two articles good enough for authentication? John Arch Interview by Jeff Wagner (1995) & For a fellow Connecticut musician, Arch/Matheos is a sacred thingBigJoeRockHead (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I've recently corrected this. No longer an issue. Thanks BigJoeRockHead (talk) 16:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Reliable citations required: (The 100 Greatest Metal Guitarists) & (Top 10 Greatest Guitar Shredders of All Time); or removed.

These two (2) statements should require reliable citations: In 2009 he was named the No. 2 best metal guitarist by Joel McIver in his book The 100 Greatest Metal Guitarists. He was also named as one of the "Top 10 Greatest Guitar Shredders of All Time" by GuitarOne magazine.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigJoeRockHead (talk • contribs) 20:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Cover songs

All interested, With regards to the first paragraph:

"Dream Theater has covered other artists' work throughout their career. During the promotional tour for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, during shows in Barcelona, Chicago and New York City, they covered Metallica's "Master of Puppets" album in its entirety after a full set of Dream Theater material."[citation needed]

I've found a source as to the Barcelona reference, but not the others. In order to at least "cite" that, I was thinking about rewording the paragraph to something like this: "Dream Theater has covered other artists' work throughout their career. During their promotional tour for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, they covered Metallica's "Master of Puppets" album in its entirety after a full set of Dream Theater material during shows in Barcelona(citation added here), Chicago[citation needed] and New York City.[citation needed]

Your thoughts... Thanks BigJoeRockHead (talk) 23:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Live stuff

There is a lot of great information in the "Live performances" and "Cover songs" sections, but both sections are too long. The latter section, in particular, deserves only a few sentences. Would anyone have a problem if I tried combining them and then editing them down?--Ktmartell (talk) 00:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely not. These sections, especially 'Cover songs', are a total mess. --Λeternus ^(talk) 07:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

These sections definitely need some reworking. Be bold...BigJoeRockHead (talk) 08:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I changed the "Cover songs" section. It will eventually be merged with "Live performances" but I'll leave it for now. It's not great but I think it's an improvement over what was there.--Ktmartell (talk) 02:43, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Audio and picture overload

Another thing I've noticed skimming the article this afternoon is that there seems to be an audio and picture overload. A lot of the audio files are just there and do serve any real purpose. For example, all of the audio clips in Opeth are used to illustrate a certain aspect of the band's style. Also, I feel like a lot of the pictures actually hurt the article. The Rome 2004 and High Voltage 2011 ones in particular I think should be removed because of their poor quality. What are everyone's thoughts on this?--Ktmartell (talk) 17:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with the 'Rome 2004' pic being of poor quality; not so much the 'High Voltage' (the only exception, no Labrie in the pic ). I personally think all the audio files need to be both updated and add value to the sections topic.BigJoeRockHead (talk) 00:26, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I've removed both pictures. My rational for removing the HV one was that 75% of the picture was background and the figures in the picture were almost indecipherable, even at 250px. I'm going to work on the audio descriptions today.--Ktmartell (talk) 14:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Images and Words reaching #61 on Billboard 200 (1992)

I've found nothing that supports this. The current link redirects to Billboard front page. I searched for Images and Words myself and the Chart History says "This Album has never charted." Images and Words Add or remove?

A quick google search show a few websites which mention this as fact. Here are a couple: http://www.allmusic.com/album/images-and-words-mw0000079922/awards, http://dream-theater.musikear.com/images-and-words. Jainsworth16 (talk) 13:50, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Progressive rock on album articles

A genre warrior has started adding progressive rock to pretty much every DT article in sight. Is this best practice? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 02:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Not only that, but he has also put progressive rock as the first genre (ahead of progressive metal) on many DT album articles, with no rationale besides the not-always-gospel AllMusic. Surely I am not the only one who takes issue with this? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I would say progressive metal should go first. If you do want to put progressive rock in as well, it can go in after, I don't really mind. Also, each album is slightly different. I'd say Train of Thought is more metal and heavier and less prog. But overall I'd say the band is prog metal. Jainsworth16 (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

It continues: Talk:Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory#Prog metal or rock first. Other users should pitch in. Mac Dreamstate (talk)

Steve Stone - Contradictions: Can we have a consensus?

The issue of Steve Stone's status within the band seems to re-occurring time and time again. The indecisiveness between Wikipedians' has led to contradictions on the page; with Steve Stone's name included in the infobox but not in the corresponding personnel sections' or vice versa. It would seem that the matter is still open to debate; so can we finally discuss this and resolve this issue so that we can treat him consistently throughout the page? Kind regards, 5.80.224.220 (talk) 12:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Tours section

Hi Everyone,

Based on high quality articles for other bands on Wikipedia, I don't think that having a Tour section is relevant. There should probably be a separate "List of Dream Theater tours" page, or something. Unless anyone has an objection, I'll remove that section this evening. Please let me know your thoughts on this.--Ktmartell (talk) 15:42, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The members timeline

It's a mess. Half the albums have wrong dates, a couple are missing, two non-existent albums are listed in the '80s, and none of the live albums are on there. Plus, Chris Collins is missing, a lot of the dates of the members switching over are wrong(Yeah, we don't know the precise dates for many of them, but we know -- thanks to MP's FAQs -- that Chris Collins worked with them for a few months in '86, Charlie joined in '87 and had already technically left the band by the time of his last show with them in November '89, James joined around 1990, maybe '91, Derek left sometime in early '99, and Rudess joined immediately at that point, Kevin Moore didn't actually join the band until a little while after the band had formed(IIRC it was around Thanksgiving '85), he left during the recording of Awake, Derek joined sometime between Jordan's test gig in September '94, and the start of the Awake tour in October that year, Mike Portnoy publicly announced the moment he left DT, Mike Mangini joined during the recording of ADToE... It's all very well documented, as you can see), and the backing vocals are listed wrong; Mike said on his site at one point(I can't remember which FAQ entry it was) that he and JP did backing vocals when Charlie was in the band(Something backed up by live footage of the time), but stopped when James joined(Again, backed up by live footage). During the Falling Into Infinity tour, they decided to resume again(Once again, live footage backs this up). So, both JP and MP did backing vocals from 1987-1989, and 1996-present.

I tried putting all this into a new timeline, but it auto-deleted because of a lack of new sources. So, I'm just going to put this here. Maybe I'll just add it to the article with sources added when I can be bothered. Until then, what do you guys think? Did I make any mistakes? Is it comprehensive enough? Do you have anything to refute my info? Let's discuss this here, and get it all sorted so we can stop the edit war in the main article over this.

Robo4900 (talk) 18:17, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I absolutely agree, Robo4900. The other day, I tried to change the timeline to the correct dates (a bit like the timeline seen above, which is really accurate by the way), but somebody reverted the edit and gave me another block threat. Excuse me?! Many of the dates in this article and some of its related articles are filled with obvious sources, and the article itself has almost 140 references! On the other hand, it is clear that we need to add some more sources to make the timeline stay to its true form. So I say we get out there, find more proof of the dates for the band's albums and members, and stop this edit war....DAAOEM91019 (talk) 11:00, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Great timeline, and pretty accurate as far as I can tell. I would place Kevin Moore just above Derek, to keep the keyboard-players together in the timeline. Nietanoniem (talk) 16:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. I sorted it how I did in order of when each member joined, but I think your way is probably better, so I've changed it to group up members who've shared the same role. As for finding sources, I'm a pretty obsessive DT fan, so in theory once I have the time, I can probably track down some interview segments and such that confirm all this, but right now, I'm very busy with various things, so if someone can help me out, that'd be great. Even one small bit of confirmation of anything can help me out quite a lot, as it's one less interview, DVD, or video to look for/through. :) Robo4900 (talk) 14:35, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Made some more slight changes to the timeline. Nothing big, though; just made it a bit smaller and prettier, and altered a few tiny details about it that bugged me. I'll work on gathering the sources to post this sometime soon. Robo4900 (talk) 01:13, 6 March 2018 (UTC)