Talk:Dream Theater/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Addition of GREATEST HIT (...& 21 other pretty cool songs)

Good Evening,

If one checks the Dream Theater website's news page[1] one would notice that DT have a greatest hits album forthcoming. Thus may it be approved for addition to Dream Theater's discography and a forthcoming album article created as I do not have the wikiformatting experience to create a credible article. Thanks. Gdkh (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

AA Suite

Since the tracklist for the AA suite is being used in so many pages, I've created a template for it. I want to hear opinions from everyone, which is why I haven't moved it to the Template namespace yet. There are two versions available at User:Hetcenus/Template:AA Suite. Hetcenus 22:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I personally think it's a great idea, and it looks brill! Fluffy 11:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Come on, people!!! Some more feedback, please!!! Hetcenus (Talk) 20:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Either one would be fine. I believe that the vertical one would be more keeping in line with the other pages' layouts.

Added two new versions, based on the previous ones, and included "The Mirror" in all versions. Time for feedback!! Hetcenus (Talk) 12:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

OK then, I think it's time to save the template outside my userspace. I need everyone's opinions on these questions (the templates can be found here:

• Horizontal template (1X formats) or vertical template (2X formats)?
• Movements grouped per song (#A formats) or continously listed (#B formats)?
• Including "The Mirror" (which is considered a prequel) or not?

I'm probably going for the 1A format with "The Mirror" included, but I want some other opinions first, there has been little feedback so far. Thanks. Hetcenus (Talk) 21:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The horizontal format might work in the short term but come the next song it will be too wide. The #B formats are difficult to read as to which parts are in which songs. violet/riga (t) 21:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the column widths in 1A might be diminished if there's need of one more column. I don't know about 1B, since there would be three new columns - one per movement of the final song. The 2X ones won't have this problem, I guess. I have no problems with the reading on them as you described, but maybe I'm just used to the association. Hetcenus (Talk) 00:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I like 1A and 2A, I think one should definetly be added to all of the pages they concern.Blackngold29 (talk) 22:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Songwriting styles

The songwriting styles section is pretty kludged up right now. There is a lot of vague, subjective stuff in there as well as really meaningless points as well. For example, what is the point of mentioning that parts of an overture sound like parts of the rest of the songs on that album? After all, that's the whole point of an overture! Also, we would almost have to dedicate a whole page to the "reuseable lick" phenomenon. References from Overture 1928 to Met. Pt. 1 are cool, but not necessarily a "songwriting style", for example. I believe that we either need to parameterize what goes in that section or remove it entirely. InnocuousFox 05:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. As much as I love the band, this section has gotten far too redundant and I'd even vote for its removal at this stage. It hardly qualifies as encyclopedic material. User:Wolf2112 17:00 2 June 2007

It really need a massive clean up: only the most famous theme quotations should be listen, not as a trivia section. Cuttyflam 21:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Spanish inner vandalism

"Nota a los contribudores: me gusta la mota me gustas tú, me gustan las nenas me gustas tú, en fin son los cambios muévelo muévelo qué sabroso a la Historia de Dream Theater Article.".

I removed these words from Dream Theater edit section of the article for a language reason, but, I've found out that these Spanish words were pure vandalism. They haven't anything to do with the real meaning in english "Note to contributors: if you make any significant changes to the History section of this article, please also merge those changes into the History of Dream Theater article". --ΛэтєяиuS 10:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Are those Manu Chao lyrics by any chance? -Amorwikipedia 02:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so... --ΛэтєяиuS 10:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Dream theater template

I've been a DT fan since images and words. I know a lot about them. Im wondering how come "Six degrees of inner turbulence" and "A change of season" aren't on the template. I added them and someone deleted them. Im just wondering, those 2 songs ARE infact Suites. Zora72 18:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

For that matter, if MBI is, so are Octavarium, ITPoE and Trial of Tears. InnocuousFox 20:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who separated them. It's just my opinion, but I believe AMBI and the AA series are suites, unlike the other ones. My reasoning: different tracks represent different songs unless stated otherwise (of course, considering only studio releases). Since Portnoy has already stated that 6DOIT has been split to avoid having an excessively large track on the album, and ItPoE, for being both a great opening and a great closure to Systematic Chaos, I consider each of them a song split in movements, spanning through various tracks (whether each track is a movement or not). I consider others either a suite split in songs (A Mind Beside Itself, AA Suite) or a song split in movements - without spanning through various tracks (The Killing Hand, Trial of Tears, Octavarium).

With this reasoning in mind, I'd like to point out the case of the AA Suite: it would be a suite, which is split in songs (The Glass Prison, ..., Repentance), which are split in movements (Reflection, ... Restitution).

This is a matter of interpretation, and any opposing point of view is welcome, I just hope I made mine clear. Hetcenus (Talk) 23:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Meter vs. metre

I usually prefer the British spelling, but as the band is American, I guess I stand corrected.)) This, by the way, can be the motto of all Wikipedians: "We stand corrected")))Timeastor 06:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think there is also the fact that most of the article, if not the whole article, is written in AmE. The change would be due to Wikipedia Manual of Style. Hetcenus (Talk) 12:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, now you draw attention to it, I see. (humor, etc.) I was aware of the language variation consistency reg, yes. But when there occur no orthographical differences in the text, it is sometimes hard for me to discriminate between the two variations of English by mere grammar and phrasing, unfortunately.--Timeastor 17:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging of History article

I believe the separate article of the history of dream theater should be merged with this one, basically replacing the history section included with this article. The separate article is much more detailed and could benefit the article. I will go ahead and do this, while making a few other adjustments.Splent 00:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I also now have updated all of the links in the former history article, so they work within the article now. I also added a few places where citations were requested, particularly within the Octavarium section.Splent 01:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Sound clips

I was looking at the Rush article and they have sound clips. Maybe we should do this to Dream Theater as well... you know. here are some Suggestions, unless we decide to put a few albums together

• Majesty - Another Won
• When Dream and Day Unite - Only A Matter of Time
• IMages and Words - Metropolis
• Awake - Voices
• Change of Seasons
• Falling Into Infinity - Trial of Tears
• Scenes - The Spirit Carries On
• 6Doit - Glass Prison
• Train of Thought - Stream of Conciousness
• Octavarium - Octavarim
• Systematic Chaos - In the Presence of Enemies

Splent 20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea, but we have do be careful about the samples we choose. I believe it's all summarized at Wikipedia:Music Samples, so we'd better peruse this text before adding the clips.

I'll read the article again later and see which samples I might find useful. I guess my list will turn out similar to yours, though... Hetcenus (Talk) 22:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, my list per subtopic:

• 1986 - 1987: Another Won
• 1988 - 1990: The Killing Hand
• 1991 - 1993: Pull Me Under
• 1994: Lie
• 1995 - 1998: A Change of Seasons and You Not Me
• 1999 - 2001: Paradigm Shift (LTE) and Home
• 2002: Six Degrees I: Overture
• 2003: This Dying Soul
• 2004 - 2005: Octavarium
• 2006 - 2007: Metropolis (Score) and In the Presence of Enemies
• Live performances: A Change of Seasons (Live Scenes from New York)
• Cover songs: Any song from "Dark Side of the Moon" official bootleg

I chose these according to how they represent the album and/or relevant information on the article (I sure wouldn't choose You Not Me without a good reason). Maybe we could choose some other samples to insert in each album article too...

Also I believe we should expand the history to talk a little more about the characteristics of each album, specially how they differ from the ones before. Opinions?

Hetcenus (Talk) 15:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a clip from Pull Me Under on there, just as a sample. I also agree we could expand the history with the characteristics of the albums. I wouldn't make it the focus of the paragraph though, perhaps a sentance or two, such as "This album was much heavier than their previous efforts, implicating use of extensive guitar shredding and massive double bass drum action" or something (relating to Train of Thought of course). Splent 17:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Sample by sample, we build our article :). I forgot to add I Walk Beside You to my list, just uploaded it. About the characteristics of the albums, the goal is just to make the samples relevant (for instance, the mention to "I Walk Beside You" at the 2004-2005 paragraph). Something that says "More details, see the album page".

Also, shouldn't the Score paragraph go together with the Octavarium section, rather than the Systematic Chaos one? Hetcenus (Talk) 21:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think we should put a sound clip for each paragraph, I think that may just clutter it up. I'd definately put up A Change of Seasons, something from Scenes and Constant Motion, and perhaps one early one from the demos or wdadu.Splent 22:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Majesty Demos

The Majesty Demos were released while Collins was still in the band, since he's on them. Am I right? If this is right shouldn't this be placed at some point before Collins left the band?Splent 22:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA

Unfortunately, I must fail this article for GAC.

• At least one image does not contain any fair use rationale; when it is in fact put in, the said fair use information must coincide with the various topics discussed in the article and must also explain how the image is a significant presence.
• The lead is very listy, and does not summarize the entire article accurately.
• One sentence paragraphs.
• The entire "1999 – 2000: Scenes from a Memory and their first live DVD" has but one source.
• 21 in-line citations does not accurately verify this article. More are needed.

Overall, this article is not yet ready for GA status, as many of the previous issues still have not been addressed. A peer review may be helpful. NSR77 ^T_C 00:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I fixed most of the one sentence paragraphs, but there needs to be more. I recommended the article be put up for peer review. I need help from many people on this. This article was once a FA, this can be again. Splent 03:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Discography Chart

Insead of a list for the discography, why not a chart, like on dc talk? I may do this.Splent 02:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

References/Citations

A LOT of these are just websites, and probably should be properly cited using the templates wikipedia provides. I could use some assistance with doing this, as it's very time consuming to do.Splent 05:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Chaos In Motion World Tour

Currently, Dream Theater has returned to North America where they are preparing to begin a leg of the tour which will commence on July 24th in San Diego, California. They will be playing with opening acts Redemption and Into Eternity. Dream Theater will continue their "Chaos In Motion" tour for the rest of the year and into 2008, where further shows in Europe, Asia, South America and possibly Australia will take place.

Well, I'm a big fan of DT from Argentina, where did you get this information?

I'm really looking forward to see them live anyday.-

Thank you.

It is on dream theater's website, under tourdates... and if it is not there I know Mike said it I believe on his forum. Splent 22:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Individual Albums

I'd like to propose a mini project to homogenise all of the album articles so that they all contain similar info and hopefully improve them in the process. Right now they vary a fair bit from article to article in terms of information present and the ordering of that information. I think if we decided on a number of subheadings here and worked to put pretty much all of the existing information in the right place, we'd make an excellent start. Possible subheadings could include Background, Track Listing, Critical Reception, Chart Position and probably a couple more. What do you guys think? Docta247 12:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree there. InnocuousFox 12:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Great idea. Splent 17:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I've had a quick go at this, and in my opinion they look a lot better (but they're by no means finished or perfect!), so I'd love to hear people's opinions and suggestions. I have yet another suggestion of my own: is there any album that would be worth getting to Good Article quality? I notice albums as diverse as Autobiography_(Ashlee_Simpson_album) by Ashlee Simpson and Blood_Sugar_Sex_Magik by the Chili Peppers have Good Articles so do you think we could get one - possibly Metropolis Pt 2 - to that standard? Metropolis Pt 2 suffers for being too brief in some sections yet has a lot in the story section that I'm not sure is encyclopedic. Is it original research to describe what happens in the story? Ideas? Other candidates for a Good Article push? Docta247 10:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not OR - it's just the same as writing a plot synopsis for a film. SFAM would be the best one to progress to GA I would say. violet/riga (t) 11:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for responding, especially for clarifying OR for me. That's been a long-standing question of mine. Docta247 11:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Let's list citations that need to be done on here. It would probably be easiest to do this section by section. Splent 17:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Huh? --ElKevbo 18:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Like, places in the article where we know citations would be beneficial, doing it section by section (Start with say, When Dream And Day Unite) Splent 19:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

"Disillusioned with this newfangled corporate pressure, Portnoy considered disbanding Dream Theater altogether, a fact he did not discuss publicly until many years later." - If nowhere else, Portnoy says this in the commentary on the OIAL DVD, I believe during the performance of "Speak To Me." But I don't own the DVD so I cannot provide a direct quote or timestamp. Can someone please verify? ShaneCarey 07:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC) I'm still unable to provide a proper citation, but I changed the mention to at least refer to the DVD. ShaneCarey 16:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Head Image

I guess they made the free image thing more strict, but I didn't want to use that Live in Pierogi picture everyone uses, so I changed it to one I took that was taken a couple weeks ago. Splent 23:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I would think the official roadrunner records photo would be more suitible 17:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

that one was up before but was removed.Splent 19:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Albums vs. DVDs of the same name

I just went through the infobox chronologies and separated the albums from the videos. However, I ran into a little snag, where the albums and the videos of the same name are in the same article. Something needs to be fixed. I would like to see these articles split in two, like Live at Budokan (Dream Theater album) and Live at Budokan (Dream Theater video). If not this, would someone please add video infoboxes to the articles, since most of the info is different for the two releases. The other article in question is Score (album). Thanks! -Freekee 05:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Dream Theater Epics

I think that the dream theater epics, and suites deserve a page of their own, as at this point there are quite a few of them;A Mind Beside Itself, Metropolis Pt 1 & 2, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, In The Presence of Enemies, AA Suite, A Change of Seasons, Octavarium. Im definitely not an experienced enough wikipedian to create a page devoted to them, but even their own section in the dream theater article would be sufficient, as i think it is a significant part of dream theater culture, and fairly interesting.

Samguana 02:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Samguana

I believe such a page shouldn't exist, since the definition of epic song or suite is very personal. I, for example, consider 2 suites and 4 epics (A Mind Beside Itself, AA Suite; A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies), but I've heard people who consider songs like Metropolis Pt. 1 (my favorite, by the way), Finally Free or In the Name of God as epics, and people who consider A Mind Beside Itself as an epic song instead of a suite. I don't know what's the common sense in this subject (if there's any), but the simple fact that there is not a standard definition of epic or suite makes this topic extremely subjective. I believe such songs and suites (for instance, the ones already mentioned) should each deserve their own article, not for fitting any definition of epic/suite, but simply for being notable by themselves on the DT's discography (though I hope one day each and every DT song will have their own article). The most notable ones end up being referenced on the DT template anyway. Hetcenus (Talk) 10:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Long Island

Dream Theater should be removed from the category of "Long Island music groups." The article states they originated around New York City, with a minor connection to Fredonia, which is clearly Upstate New York. The City and Long Island are separate entities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drego5 (talk • contribs) 06:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering that too. Growing up in NYC, Dream Theater was always considered and referred to as a Long Island band (rather then a city band), so I have no doubt the categorization is correct - but the article doesn't say why. Is it because they live there, or is that where they got their start, or what? 24.42.71.182 (talk) 15:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Member list?

Should this article feature a list of the band members? I would make one, but there is only vague information in the text about what year each member came and left. There's not even a bulleted list of members with the years in parenthesis. This is all I can figure out, if anyone has anything to add to it or knows of an inaccuracy, please say so:

Current members

• James LaBrie - lead vocals (1991-present)
• John Petrucci - guitar, backing vocals (1985-present)
• John Myung - bass, chapman stick (1985-present)
• Jordan Rudess - keyboards, lap steel guitar, continuum (1999-present)
• Mike Portnoy - drums, percussion, backing vocals (1985-present)

Former members

• Chris Collins - vocals (1985-1986)
• Charlie Dominici - vocals (1986-1989)
• Kevin Moore - keyboards (1985-1994)
• Derek Sherinian - keyboards, backing vocals (1994-1999)

Tell me if I got it down right, and if not tell me what's wrong, and I'll make a chart on the page.

--Rock Soldier 01:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. Corrections: specifying vocals for Collins and Dominici and removing backing vocals for Sherinian. Hetcenus (Talk) 02:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

In that case, everything is actually right. Derek Sherinian sang backing vocals on Falling into Infinity, see personnel section of the article for proof. I listed Chris Collins and Charlie Dominici as simply "vocals" because they sang all vocal parts on the albums (and most likely when they performed live). As you can see in the articles for the James LaBrie albums, the backing vocals are sung by Mike Portnoy, sometimes John Petrucci, and at one point Derek Sherinian. If you look at the articles for the Collins and Dominici albums, there is no designated backing vocalist. So therefore, Collins and Dominici should be listed as simply "vocals", because they sang all lead and backing vocals, but LaBrie should be listed as "lead vocals", because he only sang the lead vocals, and had Portnoy, Petrucci, and/or Sherinian singing backup.

Anyway, I'll make a chart of the information now with those changes made.

--Rock Soldier 22:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

1) I don't know if there were any backing vocals back when Collins and Dominici sang. And LaBrie is credited for "Lead and Background vocals" on I&W, so the distinction of "vocals" and "lead vocals" isn't really relevant, since it varies from album to album. It's clear, though, that each of them were the main singer of the band on their time.

2) I think that section has become way too long, specially since DT hasn't had as many personnel changes as, for instance, Yes or Iron Maiden. The table design is unnecessary, a single list - like in Symphony X article - is more than enough to represent the personnel.

3) I personally doubt that Sherinian did backing vocals, as I've never seen a single video of him singing live (who sings backup on studio can also sing backup live, or am I wrong?), and I don't believe that affirmation on the FiI article - I would if I owned the album and could check, or if it were explicitly sourced, which isn't the case.

Hetcenus (Talk) 00:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

1) If it's only Images and Words that LaBrie is credited for lead and backing vocals on, my way supports that. The albums by that line-up do not credit Portnoy or Petrucci for backing vocals, so in the table, I wrote LaBrie's position as just "vocals" for that line-up in the table. Unless you can tell me that any of the later albums (on which, according to the articles for them, Portnoy or Petrucci always sung the backing vocals for) that LaBrie is credited for "lead and background vocals", I think it should remain that he is listed as just "[all] vocals" for the Moore-era, and "lead vocals" for the Sherinian/Rudess era. As for the Collins and Dominici eras, regardless of whether there were backing vocals or not, it would be best to just leave it. If neither of us can verify, it would be best to just leave it listed as "vocals", which can mean lead and backing vocals or just lead vocals.

2) I insist on keeping the table format, it very easily explains who was in the band when with whom, and what albums each line-up recorded. With just a list, it's a lot more confusing, it makes it unclear whether someone replaced someone else in the band or was in the band together with the person for less than a year. It also sometimes requires the reader to seek out each album's individual article to find out who played on it, unless that can be figured out through logic by looking at the years, which sometimes isn't the case and still requires the reader to go to the discography section to see what year each album was released. Additionally, it makes it very hard to explain when a band member changed instruments, all you can do to list it is write all the instruments the person ever played in the band and hope that the reader will figure out that he played one at one point and another at anothe point. Honestly, I don't see what's not to like about the table besides the size, it provides a great deal of information in a very convenient format. Unless the band is something like Rush or another band that has had very few personnel changes over the years, I think every band's article should have a members section like this one. If you still really want something to be done about it though, I'll change it back to the list format and merge the table into the discography section.

3) If you've seen a lot of Dream Theater videos with Sherinian and only ever saw vocals coming from LaBrie, Portnoy, and Petrucci, then I suppose that credit in the Falling into Infinity article might be wrong. Still, you shouldn't jump to any conclusions about that just yet, because it doesn't guarantee anything. I've never seen Petrucci singing backing vocals live, but I'm certain that he sings backup. Since neither of us have Falling into Infinity, there's no verification about whether he does or doesn't sing backup, but according to that article he does. So I think we should just leave it be until we get it verified by someone who actually has the album. After that, we'll either leave it as is or remove the backing vocals credit for Sherinian from both articles.

--Rock Soldier 20:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

My issue with the table format is that it is too large carrying many details that I believe to be unnecessary - in DT's case, who played on which album can be found out through logic; all consecutive member arrivals and departures were on different years, so there's no chance the leaving and arriving members played together (except in the Collins/Dominici change, but since they're both vocalists, even for someone who doesn't know DT's history it'd be very unlikely that they were on the band at the same time). For me, the really important information (on the personnel section, not the article) would be the years each member has been on the band, and which was his position (singer, guitarist, drummer, etc.) I don't consider particular instruments (such as Chapman stick or Continuum) to be relevant enough to the personnel list since they are not the instruments that define the musician - for example, we do not consider Jordan Rudess a Continuum player, but a keyboardist; at any time he can quit using the Continuum (and not be a Continuum player anymore), but he'll still be a keyboardist. (I don't fight for this view because I know I'll be against the immense majority of opinions). This is why I prefer the list format. I think we should wait more opinions (bolded for others to pay attention :)) before we make a final decision. But if we stick to the table, we should pay attention to how the members are credited on each album. Either way, I've compiled all the credits that I could find, either on my CDs or on screenshots around the internet here - ironically the only studio album missing is Falling into Infinity. Hetcenus (Talk) 01:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Found a reference for Sherinian singing backing vocals on Falling into Infinity. Turns out I was right after all.

--Rock Soldier 03:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, my copy of the CD arrived this week, but I hadn't checked this information because I simply forgot about this discussion completely. It indeed mentions Sherinian as background vocalist, so I step back on this issue. Hetcenus (Talk) 12:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Petrucci can be seen singing back-up vocals in the Live At Budokan DVD. I'm pretty sure he can been seen singing in ITNOG, and probably others. -^Violask8₁₉₇₆ 16:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Dream Theater Progressive Rock?

i have edited a couple of times the article into being dream theater's main genre progressive metal, but i've put progressive rock as a subgenre, and someone has been deleting it, i think they are both a prog metal and prog rock band. since octavarium and some sections of six degrees have zero metal influences. if you agree please leave Prog rock as their subgenre

See previous discussions:

• Talk:Dream Theater/Archive 3#Progressive Rock
• Talk:Dream Theater/Archive 3#Metal vs. Rock

--ΛэтєяиuS 18:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not uncommon to name the genres of a band that they have more than touched upon. Dream Theater was one of the seminal progressive metal acts. No one disputes this. However, much of their output is less metal based and more rock oriented, especially on later releases. This leads me to believe that progressive rock should be included among the subgenres in the info box. Wisdom89 19:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent output not being metal-based? Assuming you mean more recent than Train of Thought, there are still very few tracks that have no metal influence on the last two albums. The Answer Lies Within (which is a ballad, which appear plenty in metal music), I Walk Beside You and Sacrificed Sons could possibly be argued to not be metal, as could Repentance (again, a ballad) and Ministry of Lost Souls. Apart from that, pretty much all of the songs have some amount of heavy sections. Besides, surely saying they play progressive metal indicates a mixture of progressive rock and heavy metal anyway? Offski 21:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

now its thrash metal not progressive rock wtf thrash metal is not anything like dream theater im putting prog rock back.Zakkman (talk) 17:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that Prog rock could be listed as a sub-genre, though they are first and foremost prog. metal. Blackngold29 (talk) 20:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

DTFAQ is down. Wayback links used.

DTFAQ is down, although it is cited a few times in the article. I've pointed the links to working copies on the wayback machine, but I'm not sure about formating, notation, etc. So... just a general notice that way if someone who is more experienced comes along, they know what's going on. --Scandalous 11:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Dream Theater's new DTFAQ is located here. So I've updated some links in the 'Logo and imagery' section. --ΛэтєяиuS 12:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Progressive Nation '08

I'm not very familiar with editting on Wikipedia so I would appreciate it if someone could put up an appropriate addition to the article about "Progressive Nation '08." It is a tour featuring Dream Theater, Opeth, 3, and Between The Buried And Me. Pretty ecstatic about this tour. It was organized by Mike Portnoy.

The reference link is here: http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1851274&mpage=1&key=&#1851274

Cover Art?

I think that it would look nice if the cover art for some (if not all) of the albums were added. On the Nightwish article all of the albums are pictured and it looks nice. That being said there are more pictures of Dream Theater (due to the changing lineup), but I think adding some cover art would be an improvment. Blackngold29 (talk) 00:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess using album covers on articles other than the respective albums articles goes against fair use claims for non-free images... I suppose that shouldn't be allowed on the Nightwish article either. Hetcenus (Talk) 02:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject: Dream Theater??

It seems that Dream Theater has a strong enough fanbase on Wikipedia that a WikiProject would work. What do you think? Blackngold29 (talk) 19:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Not.Blackngold29 (talk) 20:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I say go for it, it certainly couldn't hurt at helping the article at least get up to GA status.--E tac (talk) 20:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I am currently involved with WikiProject Slipknot, after most of those articles are improved I will start the project. If someone doesn't start it in the meantime, which I welcome anyone to do.Blackngold29 (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no qualms with starting a Wikiproject. I believe this article has the potential to reach GA status, and I would without a doubt help contribute to it. It could by my next editorial project - heh. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 20:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Even though i'm new in wikipedia i'd do my best to help in the project. Iamthejustice (talk) 05:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I say do it. I created the L3E2 album page today. Splent (talk) 01:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Should'nt DVDs be on the main page?

They are listed in the Discography of Dream Theater page, but they are not within the main article, shouldn't they be?? Blackngold29 (talk) 02:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Live at Marqee is a Live EP

According to the official site here Live at the Marqee is a Live EP. I will change the article to match. But I still think it should be left under the Live Albums catagory.Blackngold29 (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Portal?

I anybody updating the Portal? If not I will volunteer to update it every other week, seeing as it hasn't changed in months.Blackngold29 (talk) 16:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I made a few changes to it recently - I'll keep an eye on it and update it from time to time. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 20:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Steve Stone

Should this user be listed in the infobox under former members? My position is simple. No. For the very simple reason that it was so fleeting and trivial that it isn't necessary. Not notable enough - just inflates the box really. Steve Stone is already mentioned in the main article. Thoughts? Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 20:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I would vote no, as I have never heard of him, and I've been a DT fan for years. How was he involved with the band? Blackngold29 (talk) 01:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

He was the singer for a brief period, it explains in the article. Offski (talk) 02:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

He was the singer for exactly one show. 66.158.69.87 (talk) 19:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Steve Stone was only in the band for one show, and he did so badly that they fired him the next day. There were two other singers they tried out (one before Stone, one after) before they settled on LaBrie. I do not think it is necessary to include because they were never officially a part of the band. Splent (talk) 01:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Live at the Marquee

Should this really be listed as an EP as opposed to a live Dream Theater album? Live at the Marquee runs for nearly an hour, and I think this should be changed on the template. Cgyflames89 (talk) 21:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I do believe it was listed as such, because that is the way that it is listed on the offical site's discography, a "live EP". Blackngold29 (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Majesty Symbol

Why is a citation needed for this? All one has to do is go to the greek letters websites to see that the mark is made of those symbols. Splent (talk) 17:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC) 24.1.82.188 (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The "Alpha" in question is closer to a Lambda. 147.26.219.186 (talk) 01:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Excessive song articles

Why do so many Dream Theater songs have their own articles? Per Music notability guidelines only songs that have charted, or are otherwise notable should have their own articles. Yet, as I look down the list of DT songs nearly half have their own articles. I understand that DT has a large, passionate fanbase (I'm proud to be a member), but I think we should concentrate more on improving the album articles than creating new, largely unsourced ones about topics of questionable notability. Blackngold29 06:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I noticed this when every song on Systematic Chaos received an article before or shortly after the album was released. It's a little ridiculous. --Russoc4 (talk) 23:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "charts" :
  • Billboard Chart history for Dream Theater can be seen at [http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.vnuArtistId=14435&model.vnuAlbumId=681399 Billboard.com].
  • {{cite web | url=http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.vnuArtistId=14435&model.vnuAlbumId=681399 Billboard.com | title=Billboard Chart history for Dream Theater }}

DumZiBoT (talk) 12:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Best Band Ever?

Certainly there has to be some poll of musical people that ranks DT as the best rock-instrument-style band of all time (in terms of composition).

If not, we need to make one, so we can reference it.NByz (talk) 20:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

We cannot "make" a reliable source... well, unless we put one together, got a huge circulation going, and waited a few years. But that seems like a little much. Blackngold29 20:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I just can't believe that there are no sources that rank DT #1 in this sort of category? It seems to me that if people 1) knew about music composition and 2) heard dream theater songs enough times to really hear them, DT would be in everyone's top 5. Maybe this is too logical an approach for music, but... really. Aren't they the best?NByz (talk) 21:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

LaBrie on keyboards?

I have seen the Score DVD, but I can't remember anything that relates LaBrie with keyboards. And, at the moment my DVD is not available so I can't re-check it. Can somebody else do this? --ΛэтєяиuS (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

He plays some backing chords during Jordan's Continuum/Lap Steel solo. If you look closely, you can see him in the shadows. He also says it in this video. I don't think he is officially credited for it though. Not sure. --Russoc4 (talk) 00:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Should it be there if he isn't ever officially credited though? Blackngold29 04:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I did see him play the backing keys live. It is true. I would credit him with it. Splent (talk) 00:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Candidate for deletion

Okay, who's the smart-ass who nominated this page to be deleted? Dream Theater is a notable band. If you don't like them, or don't know them, there is no need to pretend they don't exist. You don't see me deleting the articles on Hanson and the Spice Girls. - Ndrly (talk) 11:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Citation for new album name?

Someone has added to the page that their new album is called "Immanence to Transcendence". There's nothing on their official site, or Jordan Rudess's site where the band is posting updates. Does anyone have a citation for this, or did some dude just completely make it up? 142.68.150.108 (talk) 01:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• I can't find anything online to confirm it. Steviedpeele (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
• Ah, I was wondering this too. No information on the net so far other than right here. Vito —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.76.236 (talk) 04:22, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
• Well, nevermind, it has been removed now. Aww, too bad. I liked that title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.76.236 (talk) 04:22, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I removed it until some confirmation can be found. There is nothing on the internet regarding a title being released for the album. Steviedpeele (talk) 05:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

There was another title that kept poping up a few months ago, but I'm sure that there will be some big announcement when it is officially titled. So until then I guess we just remove what is added and wait. Blackngold29 06:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Dream Theater discography needs help!

Someone has the video 5 Years in a LIVEtime? It contains the music video for "The Silent Man", and certainly the name of director in the credits chapter, if you have, please add the missing info on the discography page (link above), using {{Cite video}}. Regards, Cannibaloki 04:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. Let me know if you need anymore. blackngold29 04:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Cannibaloki 17:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

A Sort of Homecoming (Dream Theater album)

Please see my comment on the Template:Dream Theater talk page re A Sort of Homecoming (Dream Theater album). Many thanks sassf (talk) 19:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Rarities Section

I removed the section because it wasn't relevant to the rest of the article and there were no sources available. Many bands have rarer items that aren't displayed on their articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Splent (talk • contribs) 20:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, unless sources can be found it's all WP:OR. blackngold29 21:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Upcoming Album 2009 Trivia

Using the teaser video as reference(this video was cited), I noticed the following:
8 songs play on the left speaker (at least, there are 7 cuts between track samples)
5 songs play on the right speaker (again, at least, there are 4 cuts between track samples)
This'll be yet another of Mike's references to 5:8 (6DOIT and Octavarium being two examples).
Also, two these samples that play -- when the left and right channels are mixed together -- use the same vocal sample.
Using this, (5+8)-2, I predict that "Album 10" will have 11 tracks. There's a good chance I'm wrong, and I know that Wikipedia's no place for Original Research ...but I thought I'd point that nugget out. Feel free to reply,
_~~NaN 23:21, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dream Theater/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I am sorry to inform the editors of this article that I am failing this article's nomination for several reasons.

• The biggest problem of this article is the lack of inline citations, which does not comply with our verifiability and no original research policies. The following sections have complete paragraphs without citations include, but are not limited to:

  Formation (1985), paragraph one.

  The Majesty Demos and the birth of "Dream Theater" (1986–1987), paragraphs one and two.

  Images and Words (1991–1993), paragraphs two, three and four.

  Awake (1994), second half of the first paragraph.

  A Change of Seasons and Falling into Infinity (1995–1998), paragraphs one, two, four, six and seven.

  Scenes from a Memory and first live DVD (1999–2001), paragraphs three and four.

  Train of Thought and Live at Budokan (2003–2004), paragraphs one, three and four.

  Octavarium and Score (2005–2006), paragraphs two, three and four.

  Greatest Hit and Chaos in Motion (2008), paragraphs one and three.

  Live performances, paragraphs two, three, five, six, seven and eleven.

  Bootleg culture, paragraphs one, two and everything past the first sentence of the third paragraph.

  Cover songs, paragraphs one, three, four and five.

• The article is also not very well written; there's stubby paragraphs and poorly written sentences throughout the article.
• The articles does not comply with the Manual of Style; there are dated links (which is a deprecated practice), references that come before punctuation marks when they should come after, etc.
• None of the media samples have proper captions; they don't enhance the knowledge of the reader nor does it help bring better understanding of the topic at hand.

This article needs a long way to go in order to meet the good article criteria. Please make sure to resolve any and all issues before renominating the article. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact me on my talk page. Thank you. DiverseMentality 23:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

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