Talk:Early Muslim conquests

Change title to Arab conquests

In wikipedia the title of the page along with its content should be OBJECTIVE and Neutral. Those conquests were made by Arabs cavalry, but not Kazakh cavalry. Many Kyrgyz and Kazakh people are Muslim, but they did not made a conquest in 7th century. What about Japanese, Indonesian or Korean Muslims? They also did not made this conquest. So, the term or phrase Muslim conquests is very religious and non-objective. What about Christian conquest made by Russian, English or French Emperors? The were many Christian conquests made by Christian kings and Emperors, but the phrase Christian conquests seems very strange. What about today's Persian and Bashkir Muslims? They did not made this conquest in 7th century. What about Hui tzi muslims in China, they also did not this conquest in 7th century.

 So, the title should be changed to "Arab conquests" or "Arabian conquests". 

This title is more objective and neutral and fits wikipedia rule of neutralness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Засимме (talk • contribs) 20:25, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Islamic conquest of South-east Asia

Today hardly anyone knows (or even believes upon being told) that the world's most populous Muslim nation is ... surprise surprise, Indonesia. Not Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan. And Malaysia isn't far behind either. However, there is almost ZERO mention of the Islamic conquest of South-east Asia on Wikipedia. Can somebody well-versed with the history of this topic (Islamization of South-east Asia) please write some relevant articles (and extend existing ones such as this)? Thank you.

Yea you're right. As of National Geographic 2009 estimates, over 207 million people have adopted the Islamic faith in Indonesia, making it the world's largest Muslim poulation. Thats 86% of Indonsia's population. - Mostly Sunni Muslim. There is a good Wikipedia artcle called: Islam in Indonesia Vought109 (talk) 20:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I was wandering the same thing, how come there is no mention of Muslim presence in the Philipines and the Sulu Sea region. South East Asia, for a very long time has been a home to a very large population of Muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.2.82 (talk) 21:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of the issue is that most of SE Asia was never conquered by Muslims, rather there was a slow conversion by contact. -MaxKBennett

From the article Tariqah: Much of central Asia and southern Russia was won over to Islam through the missionary work of the ṭarīqahs, and the majority of Indonesia's population, where a Muslim army never set foot, was converted to Islam by the perseverance of both Muslim traders and Sufi missionaries. Sufism also played an instrumental role in spreading Islam in South Asia. Regards--Shahab (talk) 06:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

If anyone has a copy of National Geographic magazine (issue: October 2009) there is a good article in there about Islam in Indonesia. Vought109 (talk) 20:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Why did the Islamic Conquests occur?

So Muslims could spread their faith, loot, plunder, and kill infidels, which is precisely what they did.

What a brave fellow you are, with an anonymous post like that. From what I understand, the conquests were your typical case of nomadic peoples riding into urban centers and taking them over, much like the Huns and the Mongols. In Islamic history, I believe it is commonly accepted that the conquests were seen as a continuation of Muhammad's goals (which included an invasion of Syria), as well as a way to keep the peace in Arabia by focusing on external enemies. Palm_Dogg 13:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

They started off over inclusion of other Arab client states into the Islamic fold, namely the Byzantine Ghassanids and the Sassanid Yemen and the Kingdom of Al-Hirah, by then battle was joined with the empires and success just pressed on to capture and settle in the more fertile Arabian crescent, more so when the Umayyad dynasty came to power. Notice that the entire Conquests region was part of the Byzantine empire or the Sassanid domains of influence. Umar was actually against extending the boundaries further into the Iranian plateau. Also the lower taxes and accomodations accorded to the subject people of the imperial elite helped make the consolidation rapid. Abu Bakr reconsolidated Arabia proper Umar created a buffer zone all around Arabia and brought in the Arabs of the Levant and lower Mesopotamia and defeated the Persians. Under Uthman it froze and became an offensive defence of captured lands, the Arabs did not want to have a state filled with non-Arabs actors however they also needed finances to keep their territories and administer the land so they raided wide pacifying but not conquering until the Umayyads came in after the civil wars under Ali. From then onwards it became a typical empire with a heriditary dynasty and expanding to find revenue to administer the realm and commands for rising administrators and an emphasis on Arab power. Here is a useful link from The University of Calgary, Applied History Group.--213.42.21.75 23:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Use whatever excuse you want, the fact is the followers of the "religion of peace" and those who continually profess that Muslims only fight in self-defense continually invaded, conquered, looted, plundered, and massacred non-Muslims. There is no need to sugarcoat it, as it is all fact. The reason Islam exists on the global scale as it does is due to these invaders and warlords. No amount of sugarcoating history will legitimize the bitterness that people such as Hindus, Buddhists, and Zoroastrians feel towards these Islamic invasions and the horrendous effects they had on the local populations.

You can believe whatever fairytales you want, just don't bother posting them here.

"Dieu le veut!" comes to mind. Religion has traditionally been a bloody business, no matter which face it wears.

I think what the original contributor was asking was why did the conquests succeed, not what motivated them. Calbaer 21:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Iran and Byzantine, exhausted by internal strife and mutual conflict as well as reliance on local Arab clients who switched sides. There was no reason they should have lost if they could have mobilized, they had superior numbers, equipment and resources, then they just shattered under the loss of momentum vs the gain in momentum, resources and capabilities on the other side.

Its a common thing for any superior nation to try & conquer others, whether it was purely for materialistic goals (similar to what the USA is doing today) or other intentions. So i don't think Muslims need to sugarcoat their conquests & justify their wars while the western world dignifies Richard the lion heart, Napeleon, Churchill & other politicians & generals who spent their entire life invading & occupying other countries. Don't forget that lots of western scholars agree that the Islamic conquests where amongst the most merciful & tolerant of all during history, & that the nations (persians, byzantine)that arab muslims fought & conquered where already occupying the lands of these arabs.

Sorry, none of what I stated about Muslims is a fairytale. They were bloodthirsty , iconoclastic, materialistic conquerors.

They were not a "superior nation". They were just better at killing people (and still are). The Hindus and Persians were far more advanced philosophically and intellectually then the Muslims or Arabs were. The Muslims continually profess that they only fight in self defense and that attacking innoccents is against their faith. Yet the Chachnama details about half-a-dozen invasions done by Muslim Arabs that were related to religious zeal. Only with Qusam did they suceed, and he conquered a large chunk of northern India when his initial response was only to some tyrant in Sindh. Keep in mind that these were the first Muslims. Some of them either knew Mohhamed personally, had met him, or were taught Islam by one of Mohhameds early followers.

Don't be an Idiot you are just hyped up on anti-Islam crap, by the way Moron this is coming from a 12-year old who probably knows more about Islamic History than you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.77.72 (talk) 01:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

As far as Muslims being tolerant, that does not apply in South Asia or Iran. Maybe in the Ottoman Empire, and in regards to Jews or Christians, but Hindus arent Jews/Christians, and Zoroastrians arent Jews/Christians. From the perspective of one of the "oppressed" (say a Hindu) their is no way you can legitimize the foreign occupation of middle-eastern Muslims in a country like India. Its akin to trying to legitimize the Israeli occupation of Palestine to a Muslim. The concept that Muslims were sporadically tolerant in comparison to European Christians (who historically were monsters) doesnt mean squat.

Haha someone is sore coz his racial ancestors did not carry a big enough BOOMSTICK to thump the opposition. If you are at the bottom of the food chain expect to eat dirt. Maybe if the Brahmins weren't too busy squeezing the balls off the Buddhists or obsessing over avoiding the shadows of the Shudra and Dalits for fear of being polluted they could have come up with something to maintain their superiority. Even the Persians were too busy fighting their own religious conflicts and setting up class heirarchies based on the all conquering Aryan lineage over those inferior non-Aryans. Historically no one expected "compassion" and "oppression" was a way life yesterday just as it is today, if you got conquered or bullied by political military might you were inferior and found yourself relegated to the bottom of the social trash heaps. Muslims were the odd man out back in the day for even entertaining such strange notions as rights, then again why not milk a cash cow, 60 years in 10% of the land population is Muslim, the Arabs are the top of the class hiercharcal pile and governors are complaining about declining tax bases and social climbing conquered plebians all because the Caliph made conversions easier! P.S Qasim only captured Sindh, but yes he did come for empire, it was not the Middle Eastern Arabs who overran India it was the Iranian, Turks, and the later Mongol dynasties based around Afghanistan, does it make it better that they as local as the Magadha Mauryas? Same as their other dirty mlechha predecessors the Khambojas, the Hunas and the Kushana before them, or does their mention in the Puarana's make them more acceptable than the other conquerors. Stop projecting your presentist and modern nationalistic bullshit onto history. There are no glories in the past just lessons to learn to improve the future, once having an empire and vast territories was the only way to keep "your people" (definition of the day was tribe, clan caster whatever) flush with wealth and trade, war was good buisness today you need them to buy your goods and thats good buisness. Same deal when the Mongols overran the Muslim lands, or when the colonials overran the world, you lose and you eat dirt. If you are "culturally superior" you absorb your conqueror not get absorbed. Lesson one, your political power base's well being is your primary concern, who cares if some subsidy is killing off some shit ass 3rd worlder, it's more important for you that your man can make the payment on that third family car. Lesson two, the best defense is offense. Lesson three, sanctimonious preaching and indignant rigtheousness are usually just political fronts.

One, If you are going to bring up some BS about Brahmins and the caste system then atleast be factual. The fact stands that the Brahmin hierarchical system wasnt neirly as oppressive or perverted as the Muslim class system that is essentially based on religios belief. Timur himself massacred 100,000 Hindus. Nadir Shah another 17,000. Mohhamed of Ghor/Ghazni another few thousand. The Khiljis were another group. THe lodhis. The Durranis . THe Delhi Sultanate. Aurangzeb. It goes on and on. Reference one incident that has any legitimate proof of some massive Brahmin slaughter of Buddhists or Dalits.

Compare 1000+ years of Muslim oppression to the so-called oppressive caste system that has existed for over 2000+ years and it is no contest. All of the evidence points towards the fact that the natives of India were overwhelmingly better off under Hindu rule then under the rule of some middle eastern ape. Muslims did not believe in human rights but rights specifically for Muslims.

Two, if you are going to bring up some crap about the Aryans then atleast use legitimate history. The Aryan invasion and Aryan conquest are complete crap theories that are the product of a British Christian mentality. There was no AIT. There was possibly an AMT but the recent genetic evidence points towards an out of India theory.

Three, the term mlechha wasnt used by all Hindus or Indians throughout Indian history. It isnt emphasized in any Hindu sect, is mostly found in the Puranas, and the Puranas themselves are rejected by many groups including the Arya Samaj. On the flipside, the term kaffir is central to Islamic doctrine and is exactly how the author of the Quran routinely reffered to non-Muslims.

From the standpoint of a modern Hindu, the Mauryas and Khambojas were legitimate rulers and the Muslim apes were not. This is not a nationalist standpoint. I am not a nationalist. The age of invasion is not over. You assume that because one or two Brahmins invented some Purana that every single Hindu believed this and believes this still.

As far as the rest of your rant, its all irrelevant. Modern India could turn the middle-east into a smoldering crater. We have nothing to fear from Muslim countries or their primitive faith. We could easily defend ourselves if any of these Muslim countries tried what they did in the past. So youre entire rant is not reflective of the current situation of India. ZWe were enslaved and oppressed by Muslims and then the British, and despite all of THAT, we developed nuclear tech within 30 years of SELF RULE and are slowly ridding the country of its problems.

One: You are generally stating casualties that relate to military campaigns not pogroms like the gas chambers. Do quick historical war history check, the history of POWs is recent, the traditional sentence was death or slavery to the captured soldiers unless you were an aristocrat likely to be ransomed. Pusymaitra is one who is documented, in general the recorded historical narrative of "India" only began with the arrivals of the Muslims, prior to that literacy was relegated to a certain caste who did not seem to kept notes.

Two: Do a check on why Iran is called Iran, and you will understand that the Aryans referred to are not those in India in this instance.

Three: All kaffir means non-believer. I think the point is there is always a label for the one not like us, i.e. Mlechha, Nastik, pagan etc. it's all the same thing.

Four: The modern hindu is not the same as the historical hindu. The Khambojas were themselves called mlecchas by the maghada and satavahanas. Heck, even the label of "hindu" is inexact and has been argued as colonial label of an amophous grouping of "dharmic faiths" and defined by the British to create a striking division between the ruling Muslims and their non-muslim subjects. Also, it was not the middle easterns that overran "India" by conquest. It was central asians, turks, mongols etc. Just like the khambojas, kushanas and myriad other central asian people before them.

The Age of Invasion, maybe but the Age of Conquest: Yes, it is over because the morality of war has changed. So until that changes back it is impossible to rule over a subject people and build a territorial empire now due to entire concept of POWs and the conduct of campaigns. A resisting population undoes all the benefits of conquest and turns it into a economic liability. It requires naked force to subdue them.

Nukes: You are just being infantile and blinkered. Only 20% of of Muslims are Arabs and only 25% of those 20% are middle eastern. The most populous muslim nation is your non-middle eastern neighbor and you forgetting that the nuke option is MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Hopefully the third world can grow out of it's my penis is bigger contests and actually go out and find a lay.

The bottom line is that this article is about the Muslim conquests that were conducted by the early Muslims, thus showing how the Islamic faith is a complete logical and philosophical blunder that was the product of bacwards Arab culture. Muslims do not fight in self defense soley. They never have (this entire article proves it) and they probably never will. The Muslim conquests themselves are viewed from the standpoint of a Hindu as a Jew views the holocaust.

No they do not. Like all human societies there is a mixed bag and ideals are usually left in the books.

What idiot will try to legitimize the holocause to a Jew. WHite nationalists? Turks? Muslims? No sane person would. Apply the same mindset that the Jew takes towards the Nazi reign and you have the same POV for a Hindu.

Or did the Jews deserve it?

Human society is a work of mother nature, and she is indeed one piece of work. That said things change, no society is immune to evolution. Even the Amish! Life was more brutal and harsh, be happy it's cosier now or you forgotten your parent back in the day stories, work to being able to say same to your kids tomorrow and it will all magically work out and maybe then can look back to our time in a few centuries and remark at how beastly we were to each other.

• A historian must write the history the way it happened not the way it should have happened or the way he/she liked it had happened. The title of the article is “Muslim Conquests” not “Arab Conquests”, when Iranians and other nations became Muslims they themselves became driving forces of Muslim conquests. Arabs did not have enough men to conquer all the territories ruled by what is rightly or wrongly known as Arab Empire (As opposed to Islamic Empire). 82.70.40.190

I would like to note that the Muslims did not kill people who refused to convert. As long as they payed a small tax, non-Muslims could become influential figures in Muslim society.

tag

I've added the following:

I added it because the article is very European and Arab based. It ignores completely the Muslim battles which spread Islam into Central Asia and China. It also seems to imply that the conquests ended in the 8th century. But the ottomans spread Islam to the Balkans much later via battles. --Irishpunktom\^talk 15:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't limit its scope in geography; that limits its scope in time. This is intentional; the article is about the initial Muslim conquests. If you want other Muslim conquests, perhaps a disambiguation page and/or a title change is in order. But adding conquests of later centuries (by Ottomans, for example) would make the article worse in my opinion. After all, the Fall of Constantinople is closer in history to the present day than it is to the fall of the Umayyad caliph. As far as other parts of Asia go, there's some in the article, and I added a bit more based on other Wikipedia articles. I don't think any Chinese battles could be called "conquests." So I think it's safe to remove the tag, unless you have an argument as to why it should stay. Calbaer 21:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Simply people who wrote this had an agenda I do not see Chinese military conquests, British military conquests tags on the same page. How many of these conflicts were for religous reasons. Alot were done for economical gains. I am not trying to whitewash history but there is more then one reason for war, I just believe people have an agenda to play here.

Focus

This article seems to be a bit confused about what it's doing. If I understand correctly it really should be a military history article, so the extensive sidebar providing a theological description of Islam seems inappropriate. The quotation at the start might go well in the article on the Umayyad Caliphate, but doesn't fit here. The article on Byzantine-Arab wars should probably extend past 750AD but this article can still point to it as the source for detailed information on the conquests. My intention is to write the Byzantine-Arab wars article and come back here some day perhaps. Input solicited. DavidBofinger 03:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Can use the help to redefine the focus and hone the Byzantine-Arab section, it was a lot more confused and all over the place earlier. Basically i restructured it to capture the umayyad period and the rashidun timeframe when the muslims were a singular political entity, and serve as a portal, as per the Early Muslim Expansions template. Then just did a summary to transition to to the Abassids and the fracturing of the singular entity to the present as a legacy of the early expansions, trying to mention some of the important later political entities. The entire military history of muslim lands was in shambles and I was trying to sort out into some sort of order really and this was the first stop!--Tigeroo 16:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts we have most of the pieces already: e.g., conquest of North Africa, conquest of Egypt. What we need is some holes filled in (conquest of Syria-Palestine in more detail; conquest of Armenia; others?) and then maybe we can scratch the Byzantine-Arab wars article. 203.23.157.89 10:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Byzantine arab wars

I added the wars of the eleventh and twelfth centuries, but I think it should be moved to the main article "Byzantine arab wars".

Contamination

Theres a huge amount of angry comments here. Please, keep it academic.

TITLE

Note the titel of the Article is MUSLIM CONQUESTS, NOT INITIAL CONQUESTS. It is therefore important to include all of the wars that they saw as holy, although that may be quite a few...

None of these wars were seen holy. They were conquest wars, like those of many other peoples. They were not religious war in the sense of fighting against other religions, and also the term jihad, not used at the time of the early conquests, does not mean "holy war", even in its figurative meaning. --Arabist 12:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It means struggle for the faith. Of course they were holy wars, they were attempts to spread the word of the Islamic prophet.Tourskin 05:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It is common to speak of ancient "Christian" wars against Muslims in the Middle East as "Crusades". Would it be parallel to speak of ancient Muslim wars against Christians in North Africa as "Crusades"?

Not neutral

"and recaptured the Muslim lands " Anatolia was not a Musliam land, whatever the hell that means anyways. It was a Byzantine territory briefly occupied by the Arabs. Lands do not belong to a religion but a political faction - people, keep this article free from ny religious bias. Tourskin 05:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

1000 years prior to this engagement Anatolia was ceded by the Greeks to Persia. Of course the Greeks never honored the treaty as evidenced by their later wars of aggression against middle eastern peoples. While Persians aren't the same as Arabs or Muslims many Westerners can't tell the difference so I really don't see what the problem is. It's picking nits. The Romans certainly had no claim to the region as they were an occupying force that conquered pre-existing sovereign states. The Greeks ceded the area to Persia 500 BC which clearly makes it a territory of the indigenous peoples of the region.

This above statement has absolutely nothing do with what I just said. Anatolia was never a Muslim land to begin with so how could it be recaptured? What is the point? The idea that the Greeks ceded Anatolia to the Persians is absolute nonesense - the Persian Empire subjugated the local Greek cities such Pergamum (wrongly spelling but who cares) and the Greeks remained there, right until the Greek Empires of Seleucia emerged in the region following Alexander's death. Of course to say that only the Greeks broke treaties is nonesense and the above for all I know is a random person's statement. The Greeks Never ceded the territory. In Antiquity there was no such territorial loss by the Greeks to the persians, only loss of independence. Persian conquests thousands of years ago are not Muslim conquests - please don't make me laugh. The Persians thousands of years ago and the Arabs of the 6th century are completely different - don't insult westerners by saying that we can't tell the difference because we damn well can.

Further moore, I never said the land belonged to the Romans or Greeks, I said it belongs to a Political faction.

Finally, have the courtesy of signing your name, so I know who you are.Tourskin 01:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The indigenous people of Anatolia are not Turks, who came from Central Asia, or the Persians, who never annexed the land but brought it in as part of the Empire as a vassal state. The indigenous people are some Celts who settled in Galatia, Greeks and to the east possibly Armenians as well.Tourskin 01:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC) Agree with abovr. This article is crazy, it reads like an islamic propaganda piece. The idea that people were somehow better off being violently conquered by outsiders would be absurd everywhere else (ie look at how the british empire is portrayed on here) but it absolutely dominates this historical revisionism masquerading as a neutral encyclopedia article

Get it right people - Reasons are different from Casus Belli

The Casusbelli for all these wars was for Allah. The Reasons may have been economic or political or whatever.Tourskin 17:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.171.21.234 (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

History Section out of order

I noticed the history section starts with the Byzantine-Arab wars (634), then regresses with the Perso-Arab wars (633), the year before. Was it intended to be out of sequence, or is it ok for me to put them in the correct order?

Also, I believe the Persio-Arab wars began a few years earlier than 633, because the Arabs took Yemen (Himyar) from the Persians in 630, according to the History of Yemen, Sassanid period section. I'd like to make those corrections sometime during the next week, unless anyone else has edits already planned. Thomas Lessman (talk) 10:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The map of Europe in 800 is incorrect!

The map (self work) of Europe in 800 is incorrect. It omits the presence of the Bulgarian Empire of Khan Krum the Terrible, which at this time was one of the three large empires in Europe, situated right between Charlemagne and Byzantium. Please check, verify and correct it or simply remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.122.182.134 (talk) 13:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Please do not delete content until others have had an opportunity to read your comment and understand your reasoning. It would also be helpful if you would use an edit summary. Thank you. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Now, having looked at the map, I see no problem. The Bulgarian Empire to which you refer would be superfluous on this map, since it does not border the Mediterranean, which is the subject of the map. It is not a map of Europe, per se. Read the caption. Thanks. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The motivations of the Islamic conquests

I am considering entering a section for this in the article, providing different theories. Thoughts? (stay calm please) Maxkbennett (talk) 02:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Title/existence of this article

The very existence of this article challenges the notion of NPOV. When Wikipedia has a page dedicated to "Muslim Conquests" yet "Christian Conquests" redirects to "Christian History" it seems bias and bigotry are afoot. We either need a page dedicated to the "conquests" of all religions of similar global influence (Abrahamic religions? I don't believe Hindus have ever launched thousands of years of holy wars and crusades) and history or this should be merged into the Muslim History articles. Anything less is a glaring hole in Wikipedia's claims of neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.145.82.117 (talk) 11:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Calm down please! These unnecessary feelings of Christian inferiority! I was just going to say something similar, except I believe the problem is not any "conspiracy" nor any "bigotry", but instead a lack of depth regarding various forces behind expansionism from countries regarded as Muslim. I'm not quite sure the motivating forces behind all these Muslim expansions are the same, like the Christian expansions were mostly motivated by political gain, and in the case of the Crusades, possibly a means to unite Christianity so as to relieve it from potential internal conflicts. When the article matures, I would propose that the article is splitup and the expansion periods are treated in separate articles. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 15:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It had been over 6 months without action on this item. Rhetoric aside, this is a pretty big discrepancy. Both religions (among others) had periods of conquest. To have one singled out as history while the other redirects to a more general "history" section seems unfortunate. Much if not all of this content is contained in the Muslim history article, so this is not only redundant, but its existence in counterpoint to the way Christianity is handled, does raise a question of POV. I recommend that this article be merged with Muslim history and that musluim conquests should redirect to there. Jbower47 (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a real problem. We surely have crusades, reconquista, etc. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The main flaw with the article is because of the key distinction between the initial conquests and later ones. Although Islam was indeed important throughout, the fist conquests are better referred to as the 'Arab conquests'. To do otherwise is to create a false equation between 'Arab' and 'Muslim', which is a distinction that historians have been keen to emphasize in the last few decades (contrast with Pirenne). The situation which followed these conquests was one in which a relatively secular and decentralized empire controlled vast regions. It was only in the later seventh century under Abd al-Malik that the Arab empire became centralized and more 'Muslim' in character. In 750, when the Abbasids took over, the focus of the empire shifted eastwards and 'Arab' ethnicity less important than shared religion to the empire. Hence to redirect 'Arab conquests' to this page is worrying and bears no relation to the historical circumstances. Any attempt to equate the conquests of the seventh century with Ottoman invasions is nonsensical. Welshsaint55 (talk) 15:18, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Hinduism can be thought of as the institutionalization of the Aryan conquests of thousands of years ago and maintaining the status of the invaders through the caste/varna system. Ask the dravidians/lower castes/untouchables/tribal peoples if they don't feel like they've been the brunt of thousands of years of conquest and occupation. The criticism of this page is that it is cheerleading and whitewashing. Don't fall into the same trap. —joeFriday— ^{talk}  23:41, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

China in the east?

The text states that the Muslim empire extended as far east as China. This is problematic as the western extent of China varies with time. The map shows an area that misses China (at the time of the map) by a thousand miles or so. These should be consistent.MartinRinehart (talk) 20:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I GADIID == absolutly rename it the military history article ==

I wonder why the author/s of this article trying to hide the role of abysinia king and the people who were living the shores of SOMALILAND or GULF of ADEN, those people became muslims before MAKKA people did, archiologically proven by the mosque in SAYLAC which has 2 qiblah, it was first HIJRAH went to eithopia(abysinia) and some of the people plus their KING Ahmed Negashi take Islam without so-call CONQUEST yet you cannot have the guts to put on your make-up MAP at least to pretend that you are neutral, academic and historian fellow. Thanxz for trying to cover your bare little hand against the sun light alike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.165.255.28 (talk) 16:19, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

absolutly rename it the military history article

I GADIID

I wonder why the author/s of this article trying to hide the role of abysinia king and the people who were living the shores of SOMALILAND or GULF of ADEN, those people became muslims before MAKKA people did, archiologically proven by the mosque in SAYLAC which has 2 qiblah, it was first HIJRAH went to eithopia(abysinia) and some of the people plus their KING Ahmed Negashi take Islam without so-call CONQUEST yet you cannot have the guts to put on your make-up MAP at least to pretend that you are neutral, academic and historian fellow. Thanxz for trying to cover your bare little hand against the sun light alike.

I Gadiid Hargeisa Somaliland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.165.255.28 (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

"began under Muhammad"

The first sentence of the article says the conquests started under Muhammad, but the article doesn't include anything whatsoever regarding this period. It begins with the Rashidun Caliphate. I'll contribute an extremely trivial improvement in the form of a wikilink to the relevant article on Muhammad's military history, but the article remains incomplete. --67.180.106.165 (talk) 19:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Two terms that should possibly be addressed

This is a query, not a demand. This article barely mentions the words "crusade" and "jihad". Would it be worthwhile to add a section discussing whether and by whom these terms are seen as different from Muslim conquests? To me, a non-specialist, "crusade" and "jihad" seem to both mean "holy war" or "holy struggle". Is our use of these labels merely dependent on which side we sit? Though it would be a non-traditional use of these terms, could the Muslim conquest of North Africa be described as a crusade or a jihad? If this is not appropriate for this article, leave it alone. Trying to understand. Pete unseth (talk) 13:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Fake source

User:Torontas is using the source, Sykes, Percy, History of Persia, Vol. 1, (Routledge and Kegan Paul: London, 1969), pg. 492, to include "Arab Christians" in the article. I will ask Torontas to provide a quote from the source stating that Arab Christians were at the battle. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems to be on 493, actually; it's on Google Books, if you can view it. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"At first the advantage lay with the assailants, but Mothanna, among whose allies was a Christian chief, made a great charge which broke the Persian centre". Is this the sentence you are referring to? Which is mentioned by Sykes after the Battle of the Bridge, which would be chronologically incorrect and the "Arab Christians" fought with the Sassanids at Firaz, not against them. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

True...also the book isn't from 1969 (I guess that's a reprint date, it's clearly from the 19th century), and Sykes isn't really an historian. Certainly there are better and more recent histories of Persia that would be more appropriate. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Then "Arab Christians" should be removed from the article until Torontas provides a quote or better source with a quote. --Kansas Bear (talk) 11:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. It's also in the archives at [1]. His other source, Rosenwein, Barbara H. (2004). A Short History of the Middle Ages, doesn't seem to mention this at all. Dougweller (talk) 15:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I am here because Torontas left a note on my talk page. I'm not sure if this is about facts or sources. I have no opinion on Torontas's sources. If they are out of date, then they are. John W. Jandora (1985), "The Battle of the Yarmūk: A Reconstruction", Journal of Asian History 19 (1): 8–21, places a Christian Arab force under Jabalah ibn al-Aiham at that battle on the Byzantine side. See here for a source placing the Sassanids' Christian Arab allies at Firaz. Both the Byzantines and the Sassanids had their Christian Arab clients, the Ghassanids and the Lakhmids. I don't generally care about infoboxes, but there's no reason (if we are going to put the Visigoths in) that we cannot put these two client kingdoms in. Srnec (talk) 00:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

This is about the source Torontas used and a quote to prove the source states "Arab Christians". --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:30, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

True. It seems easy to find sources that do mention them. I reverted because it is essential that sources directly back the text for which they are used. Thanks to Srnec for those sources. I also don't like infoboxes but if we must we must and he seems right about that also. Dougweller (talk) 09:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Rename this article "Arab Conquests"

Almost all literature I've read refers to the conquests at the end of antiquity as the "Arab conquests". Why is this article titled "Muslim conquests"? Does the title of this article come from an English translation of the Arabic term for these conquests? If so it should be changed. We should use the term that most English language writers use. Search "Arab conquests,Muslim conquests" on Google Ngram viewer to compare the usage. Brianbleakley (talk) 01:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

That hasn't been my experience. As a matter of fact, the later the period discussed the more Kurdish, Persian, Greek, Turkic, non-Arabized Egyptians, Berber, and other non-Arab peoples can be found in the Muslim armies. What "literature" are you reading? GraniteSand (talk) 21:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes of course the ethnic composition changes, but I'm not trying to argue a historical point. I only mean to argue that the term "Arab Conquests" is more common in English. I'm sure we all read books that use one term or another, but look here Google Ngrams: "Arab conquests" and "Muslim conquests" to see what term is more common across the language as a whole. Brianbleakley (talk) 15:24, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

That's a cool tool, I need to play around with it some. Regardless, the stats you've provided don't filter by the scope of the topic or meaningfully contextualize what are simply titles. Even if they did, we don't use internet search analytics to define scope or establish weight in reliable sources. This is an article about the Muslim (Caliphate) conquests of the 7th to 11th centuries, not Arab conquests. GraniteSand (talk) 03:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

First sentence

The first sentence seems to be incomplete. It ends with a comma, and isn't an actual sentence. BRIAN0918 19:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Delete out of scope sections? (Conquest of Anatolia: 1060–1360, Decline and collapse: 1800–1924)

Any objections to removing these sections, which are clearly beyond the scope of the article, as indicated by the lead and info box? This article should really be renamed "Arab conquests" (as discussed above) or "Early Muslim conquests". Eperoton (talk) 01:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Death Toll?

We typically list estimated casualties/deaths on wars/conquests. Any good sources on numbers? Titanium Dragon (talk) 04:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I doubt Wikipedia would actually allow to post it. Norum 15:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Estimating historical death tolls is a tricky business in the best circumstances, and this is about a whole series of wars over decades. The Mongol invasions and conquests page lacks death toll and strength comparisons as well. They're more relevant for discrete campaigns (if good sources can be found - the early Caliphates didn't have the Chinese or Roman predilection for census-taking so far as I know). 97.120.99.190 (talk) 17:54, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The webpage https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/ suggests Muslims have killed 270 million non-Muslims. And that'd only be half the death toll, since it doesn't include the Muslims who were killed when they were in the process of killing non-Muslims. Although it includes recent deaths, in addition to the early conquests. And it holds Muslims responsible for the African slave trade across the Atlantic to Christian countries, which is a bit of a stretch. But it gives a rough estimate. - 2603:9000:E40B:7500:E1D8:4AC0:A506:D286 (talk) 19:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

The sources cited don't really speak of the early conquests.: "The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have: 60 million Christians" Dimadick (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Unorthodox colon

The language and laws of the Quran were studied with equal devotion at Samarcand and Seville: the Moor and the Indian embraced as countrymen and brothers in the pilgrimage of Mecca; and the Arabian language was adopted as the popular idiom in all the provinces to the westward of the Tigris.

To my eye that reads better as a semicolon. Correct or typo? — MaxEnt 22:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Recent edit

Who approves of cleaning up the article to match Wikipedia's neutrality policy? Sincerely, 98.191.196.7 (talk) 02:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Considering you have been edit warring over numerous articles with NO attempt at discussion, I seriously doubt YOUR opinion is "neutral". --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:39, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

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Meaning of Early / Middle / Late Islamic period

What do the terms Early / Middle / Late Islamic period mean? How are they defined? When do they start and end? They show up in articles about Jordan for instance, but I cannot find a periodisation offering the basic meaning. Are these terms mainstream, are they outdated, can they be used over larger parts of the Muslim world?

I will post this also on other relevant pages. The discussion should be held at Talk:Timeline of Islamic history (so not here). Thanks. Arminden (talk) 15:09, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

"Zuhra ibn al-Hawiyya" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Zuhra ibn al-Hawiyya and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 18#Zuhra ibn al-Hawiyya until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

"Al-Ġazawāt" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Al-Ġazawāt has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 5 § Al-Ġazawāt until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 12:18, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 20 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus not to move; editors opposing argued that the proposed title was inaccurate, imprecise, and lacks recognizability.

An alternative title, "Early Islamic conquests", may gain consensus in a future move request but was not sufficiently discussed here to do so. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

---

Early Muslim conquests → Arab conquests – The current title for this page is a far cry from WP:COMMONNAME, as Ngrams makes more than plain, and is unfit for purpose on several levels. First, as shown quite clearly by the Ngrams, the current title is actually the least common title ... even "early Islamic conquests" is considerably more prevalent than "early Muslim conquest". Secondly, "Early Muslim" is a distinct misnomer here, since the "Early Muslim period" is routinely used to describe everything from the Rashidun through to Abbasid periods and the Siege of Baghdad (1258), or some other regionally specific stopping point, such as the fall of Jerusalem to the Crusaders in 1099 in the context of Palestine (see History of Jerusalem during the Early Muslim period) ... but regardless, well into the Abbasid era. And so, the Fatimid conquest of Egypt and all of the other Fatimid conquests are also examples of "Early Muslim conquests". So the current title lacks precision (in addition to concision relative to the proposed title). "Early Islamic conquests", while evidently more prevalent, suffers from the same failings. "Arab conquests" meanwhile not only crushes the opposition on Ngrams, but yields 9,000+ Google Scholar hits to 450-ish for "Early Muslim conquests". "Early Islamic conquests" is the closest rival, at 2,530 Scholar hits, so the most obvious alternative for those that find "Arab conquests" unpalatable, despite its prevalence. The real proof of the current title's uselessness comes, however, when you exclude it from the Scholar search, with "Arab conquests" still yielding 8,600 hits with its rival terms excluded - making these descriptions not only not prevalent, but excluded entirely from and therefore irrelevant to the bulk of the scholarship on the subject. By contrast, "Early Muslim conquests" without its rival terms falls to 325 hits, while "Early Islamic conquests" falls to 1,860 hits.Iskandar323 (talk) 09:29, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Weak support: Agree that the current title is one of those specific-to-Wikipedia names that arose without necessarily referring to the literature, while "Arab conquests" is indeed a common and simple designation, often (part of) the title of books on the subject. I'm still concerned that in the context of Wikipedia, and for unfamiliar readers, it may sound vague and eventually lead to disagreements over scope; if so, "Early Islamic conquests" might be better after all. R Prazeres (talk) 17:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Article deals with the spread of Islam and the title should reflect that. The history of Arabs and Arab conquests is longer than the history of Islam. --Killuminator (talk) 19:10, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The subject here is some conquests, and the WP:COMMONNAME for these is the "Arab conquests", which has a specific meaning in scholarship and literature, as the sources attest. Spread of Islam is a separate page and subject. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:39, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose stop applying WP:COMMONNAME in articles that do not have proper names in the first place. "Arab conquests" is extremely vague and I would not search that looking for the 622–750 events. This title is concise and also religion-focused, as these conquests were based on the spread of Islam. Though "Early Islamic conquests" does look more appropriate than "Early Muslim conquests". Super Ψ Dro 23:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Super Dromaeosaurus: I don't understand this take at all. Of course WP:COMMONNAME applies here, and "Arab conquests" is not vague at all; it has a very specific meaning, as the reliable, secondary sources I've pointed to all show. The early results speak for themselves: In God's path: The Arab conquests and the creation of an Islamic empire, The Islamic world in ascendancy: From the Arab conquests to the siege of Vienna, Violence in Early Islam: Religious Narratives, the Arab Conquests and the Canonization of Jihad, The Arab Conquests and the End of Ancient Africa?, The termination of hostilities in the early Arab conquests, AD 634-656 or for country-specific examples: A history of Egypt: from the Arab conquest to the present, The Arab conquest of Egypt and the beginning of Muslim rule, Decline and fall of the Sasanian empire: the Sasanian-Parthian confederacy and the Arab conquest of Iran ... there really is no doubt that this is the dominant term in both scholarly and general literature. Do you have a more policy-based reason for why the common terminology should not be used? You say it is vague: have you found significant numbers of sources that use the term to mean anything else? And on what basis do you assert that the title should be religiously focused when the majority of sources on the subject name it otherwise? How is it WP:NPOV to ignore the specific terminology for the conquests used in the majority of sources, and to prefer the minority of sources on the subject? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I do not know if it's like that on the policies but I've always seen articles with descriptive titles such as this one being treated differently than articles with proper names. In the latter, it's all about choosing the most appropriate of the existing proper names, but in the former there are many, many potential alternatives, as many as you can come up with. Because they're just vague words describing an event that can be described through several other words. Of course many sources use the combination of words "Arab conquests". We also have 988 sources using "French conquests" [2] and 2,740 sources using "Roman conquests" [3].

I believe more in-depth analysis must be made for descriptive titles. Let's first see the issues "Arab conquests" may carry. Firstly, it is very vague. I do not believe it meets the WP:PRECISE policy. I again wouldn't search these words having this article in mind. Personal experiences are not a strong argument though I am pretty sure many people wouldn't either. Let's also note that only 110 people viewed the redirect "Arab conquests" in the last 30 days [4], when the article had 25,781 in the same timeframe. 0.42% (I think, I am not good at maths) people needed to look up the suggested title to be able to find this article. If "Arab conquests" truly was the widespread, common way of referring to this event, this number would not be so low. There is not an universal, fixed, standard way of referring to things with descriptive titles. And I will lastly state that these expansions were obviously motivated by Islam and not by some kind of ethnic Arab expansionism. Zero sources show otherwise. Religion would ideally be present in the title for this reason. Super Ψ Dro 14:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:PRECISE is about balancing accuracy and granularity of detail with ambiguity. Here, so far, no one has brought any information to bear that suggests that "Arab conquests" is routinely used in scholarship and general history literature to mean anything other that our subject right here. On the subject of the subject, I would also draw attention to how tuned to the term "Arab conquests" the contents of this page already are. In the lead, the first paragraph ends in a quote using the specific phrase "Arab conquests" and in the second paragraph the quote refers to "the Arabian empire" and the adoption of the Arabian language. The background is meanwhile the history of Arabia, Arabian society and the unification of Arabia by Muhammad (much as the history of the Mongol Empire begins with the unification of the Mongols). As a final piece of food for thought, I would like to highlight the two A-class articles that we currently have in the "Muslim conquests" series, and these are Arab–Byzantine wars and the Arab–Khazar wars. These pages serve to demonstrate that our most rigorously sourced and peer-reviewed content on the subject uses the "Arab" descriptor as proposed here. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:02, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is getting ridiculous. Evidently the OP seems to be on a campaign to replace "Muslim" with "Arab" everywhere. And again not notifying discussants on one page he is launching related RMs elsewhere without waiting for discussion to conclude. And once again WP:BLUDGEONing everyone's reply here and elsewhere. Walrasiad (talk) 00:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
• Comment To those unaware, the origin of this is the RM proposal to move "Umayyad conquest of Hispania" to "Muslim conquest of Spain". Since the point of consistency was raised relating to other "Muslim conquest" pages, the OP has opened multiple RMs:

* to move Muslim conquest of Egypt to "Arab conquest of Egypt"

* to move Muslim conquest of Persia to "Arab conquest of Iran"

* to move Muslim conquest of Armenia to "Arab conquest of Armenia"

* and he has removed material from the Muslim conquest of Persia (while discussion is still on-going) to create a new article he has titled "Arab conquest of Mesopotamia".

And now he opens another RM here at "Early Muslim conquests" (kind of the parent article). Evidently the OP wants to get all titles on Muslim conquest pages changed from "Muslim" to "Arab". However, he does not seem to be willing to consolidate it into a single discussion, or wait to learn what is the consensus on any of them, but seems to be trying to force it through piecemeal, and bludgeoning everybody's reply. He has opened new RMs without waiting for discussions to conclude on any of them. And once again, he has not notified editors here or on any other on-going discussions that he opened RMs on related pages, forcing them to scramble across pages and repeat the same arguments again. I am adding this note to related pages so that editors are aware there are related RMs going on right now, which will affect and be affected by this page. Walrasiad (talk) 01:33, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per opposers (and the first conquests were of Arabs). Johnbod (talk) 03:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. This article and related topics are, as other editors have observed, chiefly about the spread of Islam, not Arabian culture. The multiplying number of requested moves by the same nominator can only be described as a quest to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, and it needs to stop. Referring to various conquests in the name of Islam should not be viewed as insulting or biased; the current titles are not political, although a mass change to some other formulation seems to be. I don't believe that any of the editors participating in these discussions have indicated any degree of anti-Muslim bias, and if any of the sources are problematic, they can be modified, annotated, or replaced. The titles of this article and the others like it are fine as they are. P Aculeius (talk) 03:20, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chinese Turkestan

Hi Soyouy553, I've reverted your good-faith edits on this article ([5]) and at Umayyad Caliphate ([6]) as this claim is contested by modern historians. The source you cited (you didn't specify the page but I assume it's p.12 here) doesn't clearly specify that the territory was conquered, just that Qutayba went that far. Regardless of that, a fuller reading of available sources makes it clear that the story of Qutayba's conquest of Chinese Turkestan, or Kashgar in particular, is not accepted at face value by modern historians. Here are some examples:

• "Islam, on the other hand, began to expand eastwards from K̲h̲urāsān, and by 94/713 the great general Ḳutayba b. Muslim [q.v.] had led an army out of the conquered Farg̲h̲āna across the mountains into the adjoining land of the Turks. His campaign was unsuccessful; the comparison of the original authorities in al-Ṭabarī, i, 1275-9, shows that his expedition did not result in the conquest of Kās̲h̲g̲h̲ar, a conclusion confirmed by H.A.R. Gibb (The Arab invasion of Kashghar in A.D. 715, in BSOS, ii [1923], 467-74)."[7]
• "By 713 CE, Qutayba had led his armies through Central Asia to the borders of the Tang Empire. The Islamic scholar and historian al-Ṭabarī (829–923) wrote that Qutayba even crossed into Tang territory near Kashgar, though this claim is disputed by later historians."[8]
• "It is uncertain whether Qutayba tried (but failed) to reach Kashgar, one of Tang's westernmost strongholds..."[9]
• "The Arab tradition that Qutaybah had occupied Kashagar for a while in 715-7 cannot be confirmed by Chinese history."[10]
• "There is even some suggestion that he reached Kashgar, which was in the territory of the Tang emperors."[11] (p.271, but it isn't previewable, and the author has more to say after this quote)
• See also discussion in this and this, among others.

I think Kashgar and Chinese Turkestan are still worth mentioning in the article, but it should be in the body of the article, rather than the lead, and properly contextualized with what a range of historians have to say on the issue, including the many skeptical ones. R Prazeres (talk) 06:17, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

You write, “The story of Qutayba's conquest of Chinese Turkestan, or Kashgar in particular, is not accepted at face value by modern historians.” Yet I cited evidence from a later, modern historian (André Clot) that he did (parts of Chinese Turkestan). Isn’t that a contradiction on your behalf? Soyouy553 (talk) 06:23, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

What kind of question is that? The examples I gave above are all modern authors, including well-known scholarly references and authors specialized in the subject, and many of the publications are more recent than Clot's book (if that mattered, which it mostly doesn't). Clot's statement isn't very precise to begin with, and it certainly makes no sense to cite that and then ignore everything else. WP:NPOV requires that we avoid cherry-picking sources to present the conclusion we want if there is in fact a range of significant scholarly views on an issue, which is certainly the case here.

I also forgot to notice that this is exactly how the issue is already presented, briefly, at the main article on this topic, Muslim conquest of Transoxiana. So it's also not a good idea to introduce inconsistency between the overview article and the narrower, more detailed subtopic article. R Prazeres (talk) 06:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

It’s a simple question. The answer is yes, it’s a contradiction. Don’t speak on behalf of “modern historians” when modern historians like André Clot disagree with you. It’s amateurish. Soyouy553 (talk) 06:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Please be WP:CIVIL. I'm not speaking behalf of "modern historians", I'm quoting them, one of whom literally says "this claim is disputed by later historians". Moroever, it's not clear that Clot's statement (that Qutayba "carried the Umayyad standards as far as Ferghana and Kashgar, in Chinese Turkestan") is intended as a contradiction of other scholars, since the Arabs did reach this area either way, but the question is whether they occupied Kashgar or not. This is a straightforward issue of WP:NPOV. R Prazeres (talk) 06:53, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

You’re not making any sense lol. You just can’t admit that modern historians like André Clot state that Qutayba did conquer parts of Chinese Turkestan (Arab historians also agree with this view). The entire passage is about the Umayyad conquests. Soyouy553 (talk) 07:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Soyouy553: There is no contradiction here, since Clot does not explicitly say that Arab armies conquered parts of Chinese Turkestan, implying that they did so would be original research. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:27, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

You’re also not making any sense lol. You just can’t admit that modern historians like André Clot state that Qutayba did conquer parts of Chinese Turkestan (Arab historians also agree with this view). The entire passage is about the Umayyad conquests. Soyouy553 (talk) 07:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:OR and WP:CIVIL.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:53, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Arab Conquests

Every argument that this article should be called "Muslim" or "Islamic" Conquests is unsupported or irrelevant, meanwhile the arguments for "Arab" is substantiated with solid facts surrounding academic scholarship. The use of the term "Muslim" is pure islamophobia, presenting the great Arab Empire as fundamentally different from the western Christians. When describing conquests like this, it is standard to use the geographic term of the conquerers. Rome is just a city, but we call it the Roman Empire because it came from Rome. Similarly, we must call this Arab. Forcing conversions is forbidden in Islam. What rational is used to call this a religious war? Nothing but prejudice.

As many have pointed out, "Arab Conquests" is the significantly most-used term used by academic literature and books about the subject. "Westerners don't know the difference and call them all Muslims" is actually just racism, not a logical argument. Jdftba (talk) 23:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)