Talk:Edwin Black

Stubifying

Folks, this article is entirely devoid of references and has generated a complaint to OTRS. As a result, I've stripped out most of the content and it should be rebuilt from the bottom up. Stifle (talk) 10:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Needless to say, any additions should be strongly cited to reliable sources. Please consider contacting me if you are considering adding negative material, as it may be worthwhile positioning it with the complainant first. Stifle (talk) 13:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Pure content descriptions of his work in the sense of simple synopsis for them do not require any particular reference (the reference is the book itself). References are required for analysis/reviews/criticism/interpretations/receptions of the books. If a ticket was filed that should be completed first, but i can't see the result would require to remove a synopsis/content description in principle or require references for them.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Rebuild

Fresh eyes here. I've given the remaining content a going over to put it into form and hope to take a swing at writing a real bio in the next week or two. There's no need for description of individual works, in my opinion, the titles are pretty self-explanatory and such material is outside the ordinary and necessary content of a biography in any event. The long and tortuous edit history of this article, only to wind up years later with a strip-out to stub status, is an indicator that such an approach was off the mark to begin with, pretty clearly. Carrite (talk) 18:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the rebuilt effort i think this definitely much better than what we've had before. However i think there are few NPOV violations, which is in particular a bit problematic since most of the source don't really meet the criteria of being reputable/reliable in the WP sense. They are mostly self description of Black or his publishers. This might be permissible for undisputed facts in biography due to a lack of other sources, but it cannot be used to describe and assess his work, that has to come from (reputable) 3rd party sources (reviews in newspapers, academic journals). In the light of that I'm removing a few parts that don't seem really appropriate to me and that would at the very least require proper 3rd party sourcing.--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I've tried to adhere closely to NPOV. Black is a bit of a prickly character and has consciously avoided putting background information into the public domain. His biography trickles out in his book introductions and that is the source to mine until he dies and finer details emerge via an obituary. I earnestly believe everything in the biography up to this moment meets the criteria of VERACITY and the spirit of VERIFIABILITY, which is the key thing. Would it be preferable if there were a host of available sources with educational detail and precise details for activities such as his syndicated column and the website which derived from that? Of course. But ultimately, a historian or biographer must work with what is available. I have done my best to write a difficult bio without reducing the topic to fluff piece — in the best traditions of Wikipedia. Carrite (talk) 16:07, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I completely agree with the POV call on the removal of the line "Black's methods have frequently borne fruit..." or whatever. That was a lazy and fluffy segue. As for knocking off the word "historian" from the lead — that I don't agree with. A poet is somebody who writes poetry, not someone who makes a living from poetry. A painter is someone who paints, not someone who makes a living painting. Even a cursory glance at "The Transfer Agreement" and "IBM and the Holocaust" reveals them to be first-rate historiography, richly sourced and properly footnoted. A historian is somebody who writes history, not somebody that teaches history classes. The latter is a teacher, not a historian. Be that as it may, good POV catch on the part that mattered. Carrite (talk) 04:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Works listing

I've reverted a "chainsaw trim" of the Works listing, which included the deletion of every book published since 2006 (!!!). I could see, maybe, an elimination of the video documentary appearances. I see no benefit from deletion of greenlinked articles. Books and anthology contributions should be included regardless of whether or not you or I or anyone thinks them "significant." There is benefit to completeness in this matter which supersedes such opinions. Carrite (talk) 17:55, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Black's Mother's Holocaust Testimony

There is absolutely no doubt about the Holocaust testimony of Edwin Black's mother, see THIS. Do not restore "dubious" tags about this, there is nothing "dubious" about it — whether one believes every aspect of her testimony or not, it is her testimony, and it is a factor which has greatly shaped the subject of this article's worldview. Carrite (talk) 23:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

To begin with, no, it is her daughter-in-law's testimony, under a maiden name she apparently had not used generally. It contradicts EB's repeated statement, found in books, interviews, and the article itself, that his parents did not like to speak of their experiences, and it does not seem to be found at all earlier than the article, connected to Black -except in Black's fiction.. Black has, on the contrary, claimed his mother had not been on a boxcar:

Edwin Black: As you know, my parents were victims of the Holocaust and my mother escaped a concentration camp – on a bus on the way to Treblinka.

This is also believable, since the Nazis were keeping the pretense that (some) children were being sent to Theresienstadt. What is less believable is that someone could leap into a snowbank, and be buried under snow, in August. Anmccaff (talk) 05:42, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I have just spoken with Mr. Black about this on the telephone. He forcefully assured me that the "bus" you mention above was a transcription error, that what he actually said was "boxcar." With respect to snow in August, record lows for the area in August seem to have been around 0 degrees C., although that particular detail in the cited source seems to be incorrect at a glance. Carrite (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The original interview is HERE and the mistranscribed word "boxcar" is at 3:40. There is no "bus" mentioned, Mr. Black is consistent about his parents' testimony... Carrite (talk) 23:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

That is not the piece I remember hearing, but what I heard could have been a reference to it as a typo, not as a fact. Either way, however, Black's own site still, today, vectors the error. Anmccaff (talk) 21:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

A message from Edwin Black

Edwin Black passed this along to me and asked that it be included on this page. I'm going to put it under a hat since it's quite long, but do take a few minutes to read it. Carrite (talk) 07:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

A Message from Edwin Black...
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is Edwin Black in Washington, D.C. First, I'd like to compliment the entire Wikipedia community for improving the many articles covering a gamut of knowledge. Wikipedians are working hard to make their collective product a gift to civilization. Today, that gift is still quite imperfect. But, make no mistake. Wikipedia today stands as an immense accomplishment that a person like me now consults many times a day on a variety of research issues spanning the centuries and crisscrossing the globe. There are still exist many highly politicized, inaccurate, and misleading entries. But looking at the aggregate, Wikipedia is an enormous accomplishment. My team of researchers is now permitted to consult Wikipedia, as a starting place, as they scrutinize the footnotes for further work. While I consult Wikipedia daily, I do not post to articles. In my business, you lose your eraser once you publish. I tremble before I type and take full and sole responsibility for what I write. So I am not a candidate editor at Wikipedia. I comment today because several statements about me have been called to my attention. The first involves the allegation that I once stated that my mother escaped “from a bus” en route to Treblinka. This is patently absurd. In a half century of work, I have never heard any Holocaust personality ever claim that anyone ever went to a concentration camp in a bus. Trucks and trains—yes. A bus--no. But there is more to this story. More than nine years ago, back in 2006, I granted an interview to a radio show, called "Disability Matters." I have been serving the disability community, along with many other communities, for many years. This includes the Deaf community and many other courageous groups. I ultimately received the "Justice for All Award" from the American Association of People with Disabilities at a ceremony held in the US Congress. During the radio show interview in 2006, at minute 3:40, I was asked and answered the well-known story of my mother escaping from a boxcar en route to Treblinka. You can hear the interview in this radio archive created by the show itself and untouched for 9 years. http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/15764/edwin-black-war-against-the-weak Often times the trains due to routes and wartime took circuitous journeys lasting days. There were many such escapes--I say many, but far too few--and those like my mother who broke out were called "jumpers" and generally they jumped into snow. Invariably, jumpers were shot by local forces, militiamen, or armed escorts. http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/sobijumper.html I was the seventh to jump and fell down. I hid in a pile of snow. That was about two or three o’clock in the morning. The guards who noticed opened fire and afterwards stopped the train, which was already a few hundred metres ahead. http://michelvanderburg.com/2013/01/27/tanjavonfransecky/ Fleeing implied: jumping off a moving train – considering whether it would be more wise to continue the journey – the dilemma that family and others left behind may be at risk – the risk of injury at the jump, or being shot and slain during flight. Tanja von Fransecky’s research showed that about 750 Jews tried to escape from a deportation train in Western Europe. Many cases she also documented in her thesis (dissertation) to be published in the autumn of 2013. A boxcar in front of the Houston Holocaust Museum a plaque about the jumpers. http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/06/ff/ee/34/holocaust-museum-houston.jpg Back to the radio interview. Volunteers from the disability community associated with the show created a transcript. At approximately minute 3:40, the word "boxcar" was mis-transcribed as "bus." This error was caught nine years ago, a few weeks after the error first appeared. It was corrected and we thought that was the end of it. Years ago, I, in fact, linked to the corrected transcript on one of my older 12 year-old websites. I have numerous websites devoted to my books and projects. Each and every one of them is designed and maintained by volunteers around the world, most of whom I have never met. Most of these volunteers come and go and they store the files on servers hither and yon. To be honest, when you publish a new book or new edition every year as I have, you lose track of and contact with these webmasters from a prior decade. When I discovered this “bus to Treblinka” falsehood about me in Wikipedia, describing my mother's escape, I did some research. I found that the original long-forgotten, corrected transcript on one of my long-forgotten linked pages had been altered. According to the information I have received, this long-forgotten transcript that I have not even thought about for nine years, was changed so the word "bus" had been substituted for the word "boxcar." We do not know who was responsible or what year it took place. We do not know if it was accidental through some refresh or deliberate. We do know the incorrect word has been there for some time. I am still trying to locate the original webmaster and the original archival location; but at this holiday time of year and stretching back about a half-decade, it is a daunting challenge. However, I assure you that I will do my best to identify the IP that accessed this page and trace back the identity, if it was in fact deliberate. I will share on Wikipedia if the situation permits. Until then, I ask all sensible Wikipedians, who now constitute the majority in the community, to look carefully at hostile POV when vetting the tendentious postings about me and my mother. I'd like to now address another statement. I have been described as a "conspiracy theorist" in conjunction with an investigation I did of General Motors, Mack Truck, Firestone Tires, Phillips Petroleum and Standard Oil -- commonly referred to as the so-called streetcar conspiracy or trolley conspiracy. Obviously, the term "conspiracy theorist" connotes a theory of conspiring parties which seems far-fetched and which cannot be proven. It implies a nut. Clearly, the term is and derogatory and has been deemed as much by many intelligent Wikipedians who have tried to counter this aspersion. Here’s what happened. I wrote the bestselling book, Internal Combustion, first published in the US by St. Martin's and other leading publishers overseas. Internal Combustion in one long chapter documents the crimes committed by GM, Mack, Firestone, Standard and Phillips--but led by General Motors. For this turning-point research, I was blessed to receive four distinguished awards for this book: one from the American Society of Journalists and Authors, one from the American Jewish Press Association, one from the American Jewish Congress during its energy initiative, and one from the Harmony Festival as part of its focus on clean energy. In addition, my work has been featured in many documentaries, here and abroad-- on PBS and in numerous film documentaries, such as PUMP, and many news reports. http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/ I lecture around the country on this topic at major colleges and institutions. The material in this book became the basis for the award-winning, syndicated JTA series, "Hitler's Car Maker," and the material was also woven into my book, Nazi Nexus, which has been course adopted in universities throughout North America. http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/37935 http://www.nazinexus.com/ Please be aware that I referred to the actions of these corporation as a “conspiracy” for only one reason. The FBI investigated their crimes and called them a "conspiracy." The Department of Justice prosecuted the crimes--calling them a "conspiracy." The companies were charged with the crime of "conspiracy." The jurors convicted the companies and used the term "conspiracy." The Supreme Court of the United States upheld the conviction for conspiracy and used the term "conspiracy." Some years after the Supreme Court ruled, a congressional investigation issued a special report about this conspiracy and again used the term "conspiracy." See the actual document for a moment go to 1:20 of the trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9scQ6078TU There are many court documents, case law refs and so forth – and they commonly use the term conspiracy https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-national-city-lines-4 The first count of the indictment, with which, in view of the fact that defendants were acquitted thereon, we are only incidentally concerned, charged defendants with having knowingly and continuously engaged in an unlawful combination and conspiracy… http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/118/465/2281865/ NYT Times often cites the charge as openly referred to. For my research, I did not rely upon the Internet or the works of other writers. I did original research, obtaining long-sealed documents, FBI evidence files, original transcripts, and even the deceased judge's private notes and evidentiary submissions to document exactly why all three branches of the US Government labeled these crimes "a conspiracy." It's not an unproven conspiracy. It's a proven conspiracy that was investigated, charged, tried, convicted and upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States. It is not my term; it is the term of the Executive Branch of the United States, Congress and the Judicial Branch. After the revelations in my book and various articles received international currency, I never heard a syllable of denial from any of the five companies involved, including General Motors, Mack, Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum and Firestone, all of which are keen to push back on false allegations of criminal wrongdoing. That is their duty to their stockholders. In fact, General Motors issued me an apology and has since cooperated with me in my exploration of alternative energy vehicles. By the way, I can assert that any suggestion on WP that I linked the involvement of Hertz with National City Lines specious. On p.207 of my book it simply explains that the Hertz sold the bus company to GM – but was a decade before the National City Line conspiracy. Hertz was not even indirectly connected to NCL. I completely understand that, as in the case of tobacco and many similar problems, there is a well-funded corporate effort to create widespread doubt with lots of retrospective analysis, prognostication and doubt proffer by anonymous bloggers, funded policy groups, and others. If you look at some of the Boards of the institutions who are creating this doubt, they represent the top tier of the transportation corporate world. Even Alfred Sloan's biographer was prevented--by litigation--from publishing his volume on the activities of Sloan and General Motors during this era. He finally did publish on the topic in the book A Ghost’s Memoir. My work did not rest on any third party analysis, Internet site, and post-war retrospective or cherry-picked information. The investigation focused on sworn testimony, prosecution evidence, seized records, and actual transcripts to chronicle the misdeeds of the companies. Like other Wikipedians, I find visible linkage between the completely false “bus to Treblinka” ... and the attempt to label an exploration of the Court record as coming from a "conspiracy theorist." I urge Wikipedians not to give up on their attempt to uphold the highest principles of the Wikipedia mission. Particularly, I'm referring to PeterEastern who, in a recent post, said he was giving up. I do not know who PeterEastern is or if his/her name is Peter, but whoever you are … please don't give up. The same for others. As for me, I'm laser focused on this entire campaign – bus to Treblinka and conspiracy theorist. As all of you know, I publish under my own name, and I'm held to account for every word I write and how it is written. I do not have the luxury of posting anonymously. But, rest assured, I'm looking at every aspect of this matter of this campaign and have captured all the comments. If anyone has any information about the topics at hand or if any Wikipedian has a question about any topic that I publish or lecture on, please go to my website and send me a message. Identify yourself as a Wikipedian, and it will bypass the queue of several months it takes me to respond to public inquiries of the sort I receive daily. I promise to respond. Thanks for reading this too-long message. Happy and safe holidays to all. Yours truly, edwin black

To answer, briefly. Mr Black, as a journalist, should be aware that a person's unbacked statement should be noted as such. "Black wrote such-and-such...." can be correct, but "Such and such" itself should not be taken as a fact -rather than as his statement or belief- without someone a little less involved verifying it, which is, of course, often impossible. An encyclopedia doesn't state something as fact simply based on the hearsay of a blood relation, without noting that, and Wikipedia tries to impersonate an encyclopedia. "Family stories" are notoriously confused, regardless of intention.

Next, undisclosed conflict-of-interest is a warning sign. When someone writes up a hagiographic obituary, and neglects to mention the subject is a close relation by marriage, the reader's antennae should be twitching. When they describe the person's story as having influenced a huge number of people for decades, and it was first published, as fiction, about 6 years before, those antennae should be waving wildly.

Next, the use of buses at Bialystok is explicitly noted twice; once, when the Nazis first took over, in 1941, a "work detail" of 4000 men was shipped a short distance by bus and truck and murdered by shooting. Later, two, if memory serves, groups of young people were sent out to other areas for actual work details in '42, IMS; obviously, to the great concern of their families and community. The head of the Judenrat pressed for their return successfully, but the others they had worked with were sent directly to death after.

Most people went to the murderers by train, but a considerable number by foot, truck, bus, or boat, and often in segmented journeys. Many, of course, started out in the "work camps", where they might arrive even by passenger car if they were, say, a political prisoner. In Bialystock, also, a group of 1200 children the Nazis hoped to swap for interned Germans were send to Theresienstadt by actual rail carriages, a rather uncommon occurrence in occupied lands. So, Bialystok was an outlier in some ways in this, and also in its late destruction. The leadership of the Ghetto had hoped to make themselves useful enough that it would be against Germany's best interest to destroy them....so they were murdered later rather than earlier.

No history of the holocaust that I know of disputes the fact that, well before 1943, most victims of "transportation" or "resettlement" knew that the very best they could hope for was something only a little worse than where they were, and that the more likely outcome was somewhere they would be murdered or worked to death. Many descriptions of rail transport emphasize that any potential escape path had to be repaired at every stop, and that the guards often ran out of ammunition shooting at jumpers. Mr Black is constructing a straw man; the problem is not that people jumped, but that he -or rather the article- states as fact, in colorful detail, something he was not there to see, which he could only learn of from people he has explicitly stated didn't talk about it if they could help it. His parents lived; there has to some reason, and jumping off a train is possible, even likely. The article though, needs to reflect that it is Black's retelling of...whose, exactly? His mother's? His father's? A friend or acquaintance that one of them had told?...anyway, an account he could not himself know of directly.

Mr. Black wrote on many occasions that his parents did not discuss their experiences if they could help it. That is in direct contradiction to his wife's writing that her mother-in-law's story had influenced thousands for decades, unless a great deal of indirect metaphor is being used. This is not an appropriate source, without a good many explicit caveats.

Finally, I think it telling that Mr Black thinks that an error found on websites some of which he himself owns or controls, or influences, can best be explained by outside conspiracy.

Most of EB's other assertions are proper to the streetcar article, and if anyone would like, I'll answer them there. Anmccaff (talk) 23:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

One can note that one's website has been hacked without invoking the specter of "conspiracy." All it takes is one bad apple, that's not a conspiracy. Carrite (talk) 18:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Dear Friends At this location you will see scans from Autophobia, which I have just reread. http://www.edwinblack.com/uploads/cmimg_77212.pdf I did this because of the following sentence in which my name is used and which became a contentious Talk page item due to the words "conspiracy theorist” and “writers” Some writers such as Edwin Black connect Hertz's New York and Chicago bus enterprises with an alleged larger conspiracy.

The pith of the sentence is that the Hertz bus enterprises were connected to the larger GM conspiracy, and that various writers such as myself have made that assertion. This information is false and the footnote citation is fallacious. In the attached scan, you will see Autophobia excerpts. Autophobia is not a historical work involving archival and institutional records and files, such as my own. Rather, as self-described on the inside back cover attached, the book is a "cultural commentary." As such, it is mainly one man's cultural take on secondary and tertiary works – and to Brian Ladd’s credit he did review many. However, I seem to be the only investigator who has actually gone into the archives and prosecution records, which is why my work Internal Combustion has achieved the status it has. I actually examine the files.

Now, if we look on Autophobia Page 212, the footnote citation listed in Wikipedia for the contentious sentence in question, we see my name is shown in a footnote mentioned along with many other esteemed historians debating the theory of whether the criminal wrongdoing which received the conviction for conspiracy, was sufficient to cause the later demise of the streetcar. I doubt that there can be any debate over whether a trial and conviction occurred. But did that criminality cause the collapse. Some theorize yes, and some no. My book Internal Combustion on 260 gives my statement: GM may have killed some important fraction of mass transit. But the policymakers who let it happen—they got away with murder. Hence my book quantifies the damage as an important “fraction” and raises the issue of many other policy implications – which is what the debate entails. As usual, I leave it to the reader. Further, you will notice nowhere in the footnote on Autophobia Page 212 and nowhere on the referred chapter text pp.156-157, which I have also appended, is the name "Hertz" mentioned.

I searched through the book and could not find the name Hertz. Please see the linked Autophobia Index, with no entry for Hertz. That is because Hertz is not connected to the GM conviction for conspiracy, as Hertz sold its bus companies to General Motors a decade earlier. This conclusion echoes my initial emailed comments to many that Hertz is simply not connected to the National City Lines debacle. Hertz is connected to General Motors a decade earlier in the same way that the ankle is connected to the hip bone as long as you first go through a tibia, fibula, a knee, and a femur.

To suggest that the Hertz buses of a decade earlier were connected to a prosecuted monopolistic conspiracy in the late 30s and 40s is to actually deceive the reader into thinking that the whole idea is indeed a far-out stretch. What is the far-out stretch is the assertion that Hertz was connected. Hertz was not connected. It appears that this effort to create this impression was not accidental, perhaps assuming that no one would check the actual reference of this obscure book, which trade sales records indicate sold very few copies. I bought a copy a few days ago on Amazon for one penny. However, obscure or not, I check references the way other people routinely have breakfast. This is what I do. After I typed the above this message, yesterday shortly after noon, I held a ten minute telephone call with Brian Ladd, the author of Autophobia. The following emerged from our discussion:

Ladd was at first generally unaware of my book, Internal Combustion, as his 2008 book probably went to bed shortly after mine came out in 2006. (Ordinarily, a book is one year in gestation from manuscript completion.) I referred Ladd to his footnote on Page 212, and with his recollection refreshed he remarked as follows: 1. He, by no means, contests the fact that General Motors was tried for conspiracy. His intent was to explore the debate over whether those federally-prosecuted actions were significant enough to impact the demise of street cars. To that point, some theorized yes and some theorized no. My thought is there were many factors of which the criminal conduct was a fraction. 2. Ladd was explicit that there was no attempt to label me "a conspiracy theorist." 3. He confirmed that while he did no archival work for his volume, his main effort was to address the shrill voices on either side of the question of the trolley demise issue. He confirmed in that vein that his book was a cultural commentary as the jacket copy states. 4. Tellingly, Ladd did not know that Hertz had bus companies and his book never dealt with Hertz in text or footnote. Yet Ladd’s book on p.212 is cited in Wikipedia as the basis for a groundless assertion about Hertz, attributed to me and others.

Beyond the GM article, and addressing the latest remarks following my open message to WP, I can say that work crews certainly went from one place to another in the Holocaust in trucks and even buses when necessary. These were short-distance travels to work camps. I don't know of any transport to death camps. If there was such a case, it does not change the fact that I never used the word "bus" in referring to my parents, and the solitary wayward web page had an active link at all times to the audio that could have easily been checked for such a surprising mention – one that was in fact never mentioned as anyone can detect when at 3:40 I use the word boxcar www.voiceamerica.com/episode/15764/edwin-black-war-against-the-weak . Indeed other web pages with the transcript ran the correct word. It seems this obvious typo was cherry-picked.

As for my parents not talking about the Holocaust as I have stated publically, as in so many households … that was when I was a child growing up. That was before the films The Holocaust and Schindler’s List, before the First and Second Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, before the USHMM Holocaust Museum opened, before the emergence of Second Generation, before local survivor clubs began meeting to discuss their experiences, and before I began writing about the topic in newspapers and magazines in the 1970s, and before I became a bestselling author and lecturer on the topic in the early 1980s … and before they granted interviews to media. My experience is shared by many of the second generation --- our parents did not discuss the Holocaust when we were young in the 1950s and 1960s. The community opened up in the last three decades of the twentieth century, in many cases to counter Holocaust denial, and because so many others were now opening discussing.

I never used the word “bus” about my parents. Author Brian Ladd never used the word Hertz in his writing. My parents like others ceased their silence when I became of age and started publishing.

I cannot debate an anonymous personality about the Holocaust. In my field, writers use their own name and take lifetime responsibility for what they write. But I believe the tenor of the Talk comments speak for themselves vis a vis BLP. I know that bias, unverified so-called original research –unsourced and unverifiable, misleading statements asserted as concrete facts, and false citations have no place in Wikipedia. The community will know how take its normal internal measures when they see open derision, groundless revision, and lack of precision. I think the comments made by PeterEastern on December 15 2015 – I do not know him/her – Carrite, and many others should be taken into consideration. Please do not communicate with me via WP, but my web page is open to all. I wish the WP community continued progress in its climb toward excellence and the will to increase its best attributes. Yours, edwin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edwin Black author (talk • contribs) 15:39, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

A relevant post can be seen here, just entered by me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy#Edwin_Black_is_not_a_conspiracy_theorist yours, edwin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edwin Black author (talk • contribs) 13:44, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

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Just to recap here.

Mr Black appears to be still claiming that someone leapt into a snowpile in August (or September - the very latest anyone was "evacuated" from the Bialystok Ghetto) on route to the extermination camp at Treblinka, which was, itself, closed down before winter set in later in '43 (or is it that a railcar wandered for months, like the Flying Dutchman, and then pulled up to the old site of Treblinka, which the Nazis had by then turn down and disguised as a farmstead?); that his mother was either 12 or 13 when this occurred, and that she was shot by either a "nazi soldier" or a "Polish militiaman", which, despite Russified usage of militia for "cop", might instead mean a member of the AK...despite the fact that relations between the AK and the survivors of the uprising were good. I'd say this personifies dubiousness very nicely; and sounds a bit like he should have listened to his parents a little more closely when everyone was younger....which I suppose is true for most of us. It also strongly implies that this was something heard in bits and pieces, from people who would rather let the subject lie. This is not a coherent story, but rather a cluster of isolated facts with some missing pieces filled in by assumption, and no way to know which. Since it isn't needed for the bio, it does not belong.

(Of course, "Treblinka" (or "Auschwitz" or "Dachau") was, and is, sometimes used as a place-holder for the camps as a whole, which could lead to its own ambiguities, and there were a few evacuations to Treblinka during August where the trains were sent on, since the uprising-damaged camp could not handle its former capacity. It may also be that Mrs and Ms. Katz was living somewhere other than Bialystok, but were formerly from there. All kinds of possibilities, but none of the relevant in the way that "son of Holocaust survivors" legitimately is.)

Re hidden COI, speaking for myself, my only protracted contact with GM was once owning a Chevy Vega - the 3.5 cylinder model, which does not exactly inspire undying loyalty and devotion. Oh, yeah, I mighta signed for a CUCV, and ridden on a Fishbowl a few times, too. If anything, I think there was a certain rough justice in Naderites like Snell whomping on GM, but the joke has gone too far for too long, and had well before it got to Congress.

Compare that to the open, obvious blatant COI of someone trying to edit their own Wiki article, and apparently asking their friends and associates to help them...and not for the first time, either. Pfaughh. Anmccaff (talk) 18:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

You sure have a bee in your bonnet. Since Edwin Black author has not edited in article space at all, your charges of COI are unsustainable. Concerning minor inconsistencies between accounts, that is normal even for much better attested historical events. For something witnessed by only one or very few people, perfect consistency would be more suspicious than the existence of small variations, especially when the story is being retold by people other than the witness. Sarcasm only reduces your own image. Zero^talk 23:07, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

It is very handy to throw around solid terms with false or distorted facts -- which is the precise issue at hand. Above, we see so many correct terms misused in so many false ways, it would take a massive amount of time to discredit them all. Who has that time? This is the crux of the problem administrators are faced with. Wikipedians attempt to act in good faith, all volunteers, to dispassionately improve articles with genuine knowledge and insight from the public realm. For two bits of sleight of hand and misdirection, seen above ... 1) Treblinka was stated to be shut down "later in 43." This is false. Treblinka was mainly organized into Treblinka I and II, plus subcamps. To keep it in Wikipedia for the sake of easy access, see this quote: "The Treblinka I gravel mine functioned at full capacity under the command of Theodor van Eupen until July 1944, with new forced labourers sent to him by Kreishauptmann Ernst Gramss from Sokołów." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp. Jews and others continued to be sent in en masse, worked to death en masse and systematically murdered en masse well into the 1944. 2) It was written: "despite the fact that relations between the AK and the survivors of the uprising were good." Different factions of the AK -- the Armia Krajowa -- had different relations at different times in different parts of the occupied Poland. It was not uncommon for flashpoints to result in open shootings of Jews by AK, both Jewish civilians and Jewish fighting forces. What follows is a molecule of the larger picture when 200 Jews are killed by AK forces prior to July 1944. See page 505 near the bottom with reference to two such killings, one incident of 24 Jewish fighters, and one of 200 Jews. https://books.google.com/books?id=Kf3VWbfunLcC&pg=PA505&lpg=PA505&dq=Relations+between+AK+and+Jews+in+the+Holocaust&source=bl&ots=ZDkN-ZdEmS&sig=qZnvWj56MA2PSW8xblYfncN06QU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC_8_duZ_KAhUGMj4KHeVvCBQQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=Relations%20between%20AK%20and%20Jews%20in%20the%20Holocaust&f=false .

This does not mean that Jews did not fight alongside AK in some areas at some times -- it is just more grey and granulated than the above would suggest and the true facts on the ground attested to. A new book published by Cambridge covers both the saint and sinner aspect of their complex relations. http://www.thejewishweek.com/arts/books/killers-jews-or-saviors-jews . Hence, nuance helps in Holocaust study. I find above an abundance of false facts, misleading statements, distortion, and open animus -- hostility -- against just about anyone who disagrees with or exposes same. Wikipedia admins have yet to react to the reality that important articles and topics are being subverted openly, and sincere editors are being bullied, misdirected, misled, and subjected to ad hominem and/or snide remarks to discourage any challenge. yours --Edwin Black author (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2016 (UTC)edwin

Which again raises the question, why, of all the people that might be responsible, you'd assume it was the AK, when the source you quoted now strongly implies the opposite.

If you have knowledge of any use of Treblinka I as an outright extermination camp -i.e. get of the train and go straight to your death, beyond a possible couple "evacuations" from Warsaw when the Ghetto was annihilated, please share them. The only mass execution on the gravel pits was the final "liquidation", IMS. Anmccaff (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Just a further note ... I now see a similar barrage of false facts, open animus, and misdirection in a linked fashion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy#Edwin_Black_is_not_a_conspiracy_theorist . I sympathize with those Wikipedians who have become discouraged from correcting the deft purveying of errors and false realities laced with all sorts of half-facts. I certainly cannot devote the time needed to expose the torrent of incorrect statements about persons, companies, and topics. The Wikipedia house is getting bigger and better, but some side rooms still need house-cleaning. I am not one of those people. But more established Wikipedians know who they are. I too am now going dark for other projects. yours, edwin--Edwin Black author (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Two comments:

• Page 372 of Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka by Yitzhak Arab (Indiana University Press, 1987) says that there were five transports of Jews from Byalistok in August 1943, involving 76 freight cars. The original order is cited. Two of the transports terminated at Treblinka, Aug 18/19, and the other three arrived at Treblinka but continued on to other camps. The camp was demolished in Sep/Oct (page 373). This is a perfect match to the story and Anmccaff's protestations amount to nothing.Zero^talk 00:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• Nonsense. Nobody jumped into the snow from a train in the Bialystok district in August, or even September. And nobody left Sobibor for either part of Treblinka after '43. Part of the story is either simply wrong, or missing a chapter or two. e.g., the earlier evacuation in the February fits the snow, but, IMS, it was done with 3rd class carriages, not freight cars. Anmccaff (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The snow is probably a misremembered detail. Traumatised people do that. Without the snow everything else fits known facts. I have no idea how Sobibor got into it. Zero^talk 07:18, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• There's no reason to focus on AK. A 13-year-old girl wouldn't have known more than "group of Poles with guns". Local vigilantes are just as likely suspects.

Zero^talk 00:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

• Why even Poles? Coulda been OrPos, Rail Police, Hiwis; anyone walking near a rail line without notice was liable to be shot. Could have been Volksdeutsch, who often spoke Polish as much as German. Could have been anyone living rough, even Polish Jews - people who were living in the woods often shot first and asked questions later, and none of the partisans were an exception to this. Coulda been outright bandits. But that doesn't answer the question of why one single source has two different answers, Mr. Black's earlier version stated it was "nazi soldiers," no? Anmccaff (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

He wrote "Nazi soldiers" in Transfer Agreement and later corrected it. I assume his mum told him it was wrong. It has been "miltiamen" since about 2002. Correcting errors is a sign of integrity. You don't have a case. Zero^talk 07:18, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia Friends,

I've taken a second and third look at some of the statements made above about my mother and Treblinka. I'm now coming upon the anniversary of her death. I don't mind sharing with you that I find some of these remarks extremely disrespectful and feel they could only be done by a person hiding behind an anonymous name.

First, I looked at the comments about Treblinka transports by Zero. These are astute, informed and borne out by archival materials that I've consulted in the past few days.

Now, I took a closer look at statements about my mother and snow shown above. These include but are not limited to these three: 1) "What is less believable is that someone could leap into a snow bank and could be buried under snow." 2) "Mr. Black seems to be claiming that someone leaped into a snow pile in August or September." 3) 3) Nonsense. Nobody jumped into the snow from a train in the Bialystok district in August or even September." So, I went back and looked into the history of the recounting of my mother's escape. Then I looked at all the subsequent mentions of that story by me, by others, and even by Holocaust denial sites. Nowhere do I find a reference that she jumped into snow. I have already stated here recently that many other survivors talk about escaping into the snow. But I have never said, based on my best recollection, that my mother jumped into the snow. Later she did encounter snow. Read further.

People can examine this for themselves. The original 1984 edition of The Transfer Agreement was produced on a typewriter and you will not find a url for this from the page in Google Books. From the 1984 plates it has been re-issued by various publishers in numerous editions over the past 3 decades plus. Anyone who has the book can see on a fleeting, albeit truncated reference dictated by space, on page xxii these words: http://www.transferagreement.com/index.php?page=10225 My mother, as a girl, had been pushed by her mother through the vent of a boxcar on the way to the Treblinka death camp. She was shot by Nazi soldiers and buried in a shallow mass grave. My father had stepped out of line during a long march to a destiny with death. While hiding in the woods, he came upon a leg protruding from the snow. More than 15 years later, I again used a similar fleeting formulation. See similar words on Page 11 of IBM and the Holocaust which you may discover in a sample chapter text created approximately one decade ago, when the primitive website was first established. http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/index.php?page=70127 My mother escaped from a boxcar en route to Treblinka, was shot, and then buried in a shallow mass grave. My father had already run away from a guarded line of Jews and discovered her leg protruding from the snow. In addition, we see an obituary written by me when my mother passed away, syndicated worldwide by the JTA and published in many outlets. http://www.jta.org/2005/02/14/archive/first-person-after-escaping-from-nazi-boxcar-polish-jew-shared-inspiring-life-story http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/10282 Edjya jumped. On the ground, she was shot by militiamen and then buried in a snowy mass grave.

A few years ago, I wrote in an anthology for Alan Dershowitz entitled What Israel Means to Me: By 80 Prominent Writers, Performers, Scholars, on p.57 https://books.google.com/books?id=Ur2fub6vAyUC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Edwin+Black+boxcar+mother&source=bl&ots=vJCFb8EJzp&sig=d-WwS6Is4sTr3MkOmdl17VPQTeM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEyZSrgqfKAhUJPj4KHUwpAkMQ6AEIPTAF#v=onepage&q=Edwin%20Black%20boxcar%20mother&f=false

Edjya jumped. On the ground, she was shot by militiamen and then buried in a snowy mass grave. Here is another article subsequently written and written based on prior interviews syndicated in The Cutting Edge and elsewhere. http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=85742 Edjya jumped. She landed down the embankment, rolled, and started to run. Polish militiamen discovered her and shot her. Later, they buried her in a mass grave covered with snow. There is no reference that she jumped into a snowbank. Nor in any of the public or private accounts does it suggest she boarded a train in Bialystok and jumped out of the train in the Bialystok city limits or in the Bialystok district. It strains credulity to believe that a jumper would escape from a boxcar within the city limits or even the extended city limits where there were lots of people around to see, and the tracks were guarded or under local observation.

By the way, strange as this may seem, there were two Polish survivors, called Ethel Katz. This one below from Brooklyn is not my mother: http://www.timesledger.com/stories/2012/40/holocaustsurvivor_ln_2012_10_04_q.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYuTgncLMNI

I've now gone further into source material, and more research, and I think I know the location where my mother jumped. It was far from Bialystok, it was a distance away, past some other hamlets in a rural, apparently hilly area. I'm still working on this and one day will publish the results. For now, I have tracked the rail line – still existing – to the hamlet and spoken to others from the period – without mentioning why. My mother was indeed shot; she was indeed left for dead in a mass grave covered with snow; and she was indeed discovered by my father; and they lived for two years as partisans. Those were each separate segments of her survival story.

To recap, first she boards the train in Bialystok with her family. Second, she travels a distance, and I'm not sure if that was more than a day's ride or just a full day. The train passed thru a major transit point and there could have been some delays. Third, my mother is then encouraged to squeeze through, or is pushed through, a vent in the boxcar. Such a typical vent is seen in this picture. Check midway down for the pix – typical not actual. https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/hitler-and-the-transfer-agreement/

But the crux of this message is that she did not jump into a snowbank, and no one ever said she did. She did not jump in the city limits of Bialystok, and no one ever said she did. In most of the fragmentary re-tellings of her story, a key word has been used. That word is "later" and sometimes the word "subsequent." That includes Wikipedia before the contested editing. Continuing I did some checking into the history of the edits of this paragraph, and I see somewhere originally the word "subsequently" was used. That word was edited out. Putting that deletion of the word "subsequently" aside, one might ask where is the good faith basis claiming she jumped into a snowbank or she jumped within the Bialystok district?

Let's review some of the other related facts.

• • • I'm called a "conspiracy theorist" in conjunction with Hertz Rental Car footnoted to Page 212 of Autophobia. A check of Autophobia on page 212, and the rest of the book, shows no mention of Hertz.

http://www.edwinblack.com/uploads/cmimg_77212.pdf . Author Brian Ladd avers that he never knew Hertz was even involved in buses. After I revealed this, my words are twisted to suggest that the Omnibus Corporation was not involved in the prosecution of General Motors. See a Dec, 28 2015 entry in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy&action=history Mr Black appears to have disavowed any personal belief that the Omnibus lines were part of a GM plot, and has also left a strong impression that he thinks anyone who does see it that way is at best wrong. But I didn’t opine on Omnibus—just Hertz. Notice how my words are twisted.

• • • The claim is made that somewhere I suggested that my mother was sent to Treblinka on a bus, not in a boxcar. We examined the source page and we uploaded the original 2006 audio recording of the interview. We discover that at 03:40 I did not use the word "bus." I used the word "boxcar." Another editor posted the correct info.

http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/15764/edwin-black-war-against-the-weak

• • • We see assertions that my mother jumped out of a train and directly into a snow bank in August. It has various Wikipedians consulting the weather charts for Poland in August. In point of fact, the written record does not say that.
    • We see rock solid references to a so-called expert with a phony name, Guy Span, who cannot be identified except that other sources have picked up the same info believing him to be an expert. Who is he? What makes him an expert?
    • We see similar instances on numerous other Wikipedia pages to the point where good-faith editors, volunteering their time, simply give up after so many combative, uncivil exchanges. When they do, the distortion and falsity and/or the partisan and activist editing prevails.

If one of my researchers had made at least one of these mistakes, they would be sent to the back of the class. If they had made two of these mistakes, we would politely banish them from the project. If a lab tech had made these egregious errors, every single one of their test results would be reexamined with a skeptical eye. If a prosecutor had made three such errors, they could maybe be disbarred, and all cases re-examined. A doctor might be thrown out of the medical society. Certainly, a reporter in any news organization would have been booted from the staff, whether such a publication is The Chicago Reader, where it is well known that I used to publish major interviews and investigations--and of course, was an avid reader of The Straight Dope (quite relevant here), or if it is any small newspaper such as The Worcester Telegram.

The prime question now is whether these errors above and others have been accidental or deliberate. The depth of knowledge, jargon and techno-babble show a very informed person with a keen grasp of the topics who can easily differentiate between facts and fabrications. I will leave it to the Wikipedia community to evaluate whether the citations above, and many others, are grounds for a sweeping reexamination of all entries and a determination if this type of posting should be blocked either from certain topics or from Wikipedia in general. yours, edwin--Edwin Black author (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

@Edwin Black author: If there was a gap of a few months between your mother jumping and her being shot, then snow at the grave is perfectly plausible. Even more so if she traveled to, or was already in, a mountainous area. But I'll also say that it is unfair to expect every single word of a survivor's recollection to be literally true. Memory is not so reliable as that even when people recall recent events. It is always worthwhile trying to pin down the details, but the impact of this remarkable life story doesn't depend in the least on whether the grave was covered by snow or covered by mud or branches. Zero^talk 00:22, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Zero's words about orals are spoken like a seasoned historian. We weigh them. Which is why my reference to my parents story has been spartan and inspirational. We wouldn't want to rely upon a teenager's memory that the embankment was 40 feet or 30 feet or 10 feet. That is unfair. But when we can validate the information, we weigh it and use it. I have spoken not only to my father and mother -- and I have tapes and seen the wounds-- but also spoken fellow partisans after the war. I even have some photos. A few days ago, I asked my dad some geographic stuff about the train that was reflected on on this page. These are painful topics, and I didn't have the heart to tell him someone hiding behind an anonymous name was challenging my mom's survival. He doesn't know what Wikipedia is, and cannot use a computer. But we talk daily ... about nothing. He recently finally opened up on the war. I know what he did in the period to survive and to fight to liberate Nazi-besieged cities fighting with weapons and without. He was in an advance special operations group that cleared blocks. I have never revealed this. People have always asked why I have written thousands of words in-depth about the saga of so many other survivors, but not my own parents. Maybe one day. Not now. yours, edwin--96.241.86.106 (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)--Edwin Black author (talk) 14:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

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Lack of academic credentials?

Is true he never went to college, let alone journalism school? It doesn't mean his book can't be accurate, but I found the lack of academic credentials at the page strange (and ran across an article which said he doesn't even have a B.A.).Historian932 (talk) 15:28, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Ok I see where it says he "attended university" after beginning work in high school as a reporter.Historian932 (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2020 (UTC)