Talk:Eelam

One view only

This entry had many problems, so created one with all points of view. What Inmeed help in is finding attestation of this word in Tamil nadu for Toddy as well as actual place names from Kerala with this name. Thanks-RaveenS 22:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The meaning of "Toddy" is attested in the Madras Tamil Lexicon, which is a reliable source. Try the Tamil Virtual University's online version - you want page 194. -- Arvind 01:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Over two years after this discussion (haste makes waste), I've added a bit more detail about the etymology, contrasting the views of the DED and the MTL. I'll see if I can get hold of Gundert's 1869 paper - until today, I had no idea he'd said anything at all on this topic. -- Arvind (talk) 08:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I was working on a comprehensive article but your additions will make that even better Taprobanus (talk) 13:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Eelam and Elam

What you think about the word Eelam and Elam from the Elamites?

Historical Survey of Eelam

It will be good, when we take this article to discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamilstyle (talk • contribs) 13:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The chances are slim. - Gopalan evr (talk) 00:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

No Historical Evidence to refer Sri Lanka was Elam

Statement in this article "Eelam (Tamil: ஈழம், īḻam) also spelled Eezham, Ilam or Izham in English is the native Tamil name for the South Asian island state of Sri Lanka." is a distortion of history.

It is surprising why such statements were not verified and corrected. There are NO reasonable historically worth evidence to refer Sri Lanka as Elam in Tamil or any other language.

Verifiable Historical Evidence to prove, Elam referred elsewhere, and not Sri Lanka:

1. In Rig Veda, the sunken land of Ilam of the Tamils, is called Kumari Kandam (The Virgin-Land). Refer: South Indian Origins of Vedic Agni

2. Elam was an ancient civilization located in what is now southwest Iran. Refer: Elamo-Dravidian , Elamite language , List of rulers of Elam

Therefore, Tamil Eelam concept referring to Sri Lanka has no roots and an intentional distortion of history.

I wish, rest of the online literature on Tamil Eelam lies be corrected by the same [organization], responsible for posting them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fonsidream (talk • contribs) 20:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The above statement ignores or is ignorant of the history of the region. Elam and Eelam are two entirely different areas. The former is in West Asia and the later is the Tamil name for Sri Lanka. Any resemblance is purely accidental. Tamil literature has always referred the neighbouring island of Sri Lanka as "Eelam". There are quotes from "Pattinappalai" even in this article. The term Eelam is related to the word for the old Sinhala language - Helu or Elu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elu_language - although I cannot say which is derived from which. Thus it is not any intentional distortion of history. Incidentally, Rig veda does not refer to Kumari Kandam, to the best of my knowledge. Kumari Kandam does not refer to Sri Lanka - it refers to a sunken land south and west of Kanyakumari - and Sri Lanka is east of Kanyakumari. - Gopalan evr (talk) 00:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

No Historical Evidence to refer Sri Lanka as Elam?

If you are scholar in the area please at least sign your information, and please list the books you have written and the research you have done and the university you represent.

Humans have moved around alot more that what we think...maybe the early people who moved there some of them migrated from what is now Iran and kept the name and integrated with the people who were already there.

I'm not s Sri Lancan and don't really care...but your points seem politically motivatedStarbwoy (talk) 15:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

EElam - now Srilanka was EElam - need to read old scripts from south India — Preceding unsigned comment added by SilverCow666 (talk • contribs) 22:04, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Origin

The article states that the word Eezham is native although the articlear points toward S.India for origin? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.245.163.184 (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Grammar problem: confusion

The sentence that begins "Not only are the words..." is not grammatical. What is it trying to say?! 2A00:23C5:FE0B:700:BDB8:7B11:D97:3E18 (talk) 06:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Uncited

“ The Tamil lexicons Thivaakaram, Pingkalam and Choodaamani, dating from c. 8th century CE, equate the word with the Sinhala language and with gold.” Kanatonian (talk) 13:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Dubious

@JohnWiki159: The website agarathi.com is not a wp:rs and the website https://dsal.uchicago.edu copied content from agarathi. BTW, both are not reliable dictionaries. They use most of transliteration. It gives meaning to Sinhalese, The Sinhalese language, one of 18 languages referred to in Tamil works; and A mode of dancing with gesticulation peculiar to the Singalese. Can you add these under the article, Sinhalese? Look at the spelling too Singalese. --AntanO 01:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: agarathi.com is just a website that shows the meanings of the word Eelam from all Tamil Dictionaries. It shows meanings of words from Tamil Dictionaries such as Tamil Lexicon, Miron Winslow etc. The website https://dsal.uchicago.edu has not copied content from agarathi. Both the websites contain content from the trusted and reputed dictionary "A Comprehensive Tamil and English Dictionary of High and Low Tamil" published by Miron Winslow. Moreover, "A Comprehensive Tamil and English Dictionary of High and Low Tamil" book published by Miron Winslow become the basis for the Tamil Lexicon Dictionary published by University of Madras. So according to your logic, it can be said that the Tamil Lexicon can't also be trusted. This Eelam Wikipedia article has several references to the Tamil Lexicon. Then they should also be removed if looking from your perspective. Moreover, the Tamil Lexicon dictionary also refers Eelam to Sinhala(சிங்களம்) JohnWiki159 (talk) 06:56, 4 November 2021 (UTC).

Eelam - Here it says Eelam as "Ceylon". I hope you know the meaning of Ceylon. Therefore, we cannot says "Eelam is also referred to as "Ceylon". Actually, Indians use different terminology about Sri Lanka which is inaccurate. We have to accept widely recognized terms, and we should have in depth view. Moreover, there is no "Cingalese country".--AntanO 01:17, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO:Thanks you for the reply. Tamil Lexicon clearly mentions that Eelam also refers to Sinhala(சிங்களம்). I think you were unable to find it. It is right next to Ceylon. After clicking on Eelam, please press ctrl + f in the keyboard and search for சிங்களம். If you are unable to understand Tamil, சிங்களம் means Sinhala. This article about Eelam has taken references from the Tamil Lexicon to talk about other meanings of Eelam. The Tamil Lexicon clearly says Eelam also means Sinhala. Moreover, Gold, Toddy and Arrack are not widely accepted terms for Eelam. But they have been included in the article from the Tamil Lexicon. Tamil Lexicon is not the only dictionary that refers Eelam to Sinhala. https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/kadirvelu_query.py?page=254 also refers Eelam to Sinhala. Hence, as you can see, Sinhala is a widely accepted term for Eelam. JohnWiki159 (talk) 05:13, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

It says Eelam as Ceylon. Don't revert while on discussion. If you can't discuss, just leave without nonconstructive edit. --AntanO 11:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO:It clearly says Eelam also means Sinhala(சிங்களம்). I feel like you are purposefully avoiding it. I can give you more dictionaries other than Tamil Lexicon that refer Eelam to Sinhala. https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/kadirvelu_query.py?page=254 also refers Eelam to Sinhala. Miron Winslow also refers Eelam to Sinhala. There are multiple dictionaries that refer Eelam to Sinhala. I can't understand why you are purposefully avoiding this. JohnWiki159 (talk) 06:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Isn't dictionaries WP:PRIMARY? @JohnWiki159, Do you have any scholarly sources for this exceptional claim? - SUN EYE 1 16:53, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@Suneye1:In the wikipedia article about Eelam, it says "Eelam is also a name for the spurge (a plant), toddy (an intoxicant) and gold". The source given to prove this statement is the Tamil Lexicon dictionary. The same source says that Eelam also means Sinhala. Then according to your logic, shouldn't that statement be removed from the article since it is taken from a dictionary? JohnWiki159 (talk) 19:58, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@JohnWiki159: Where did I say it should be removed? I asked if you have any scholarly sources for that claim. If it's from the same dictionary, then we need better sources. This source gives the meaning from old Tamil. This could be added to etymology.- SUN EYE 1 09:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Suneye1: You initially said dictionaries are WP:PRIMARY. So I pointed out how Tamil Lexicon dictionary has been used in this article to prove the fact that Eelam is also a name for gold, toddy and spurge. So why has a dictionary been used here then? Doesn't WP:PRIMARY apply for this case? That same dictionary says Eelam also means Sinhala. JohnWiki159 (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@JohnWiki159: You are repeating yourself again. That is why I said we need better sources for both. Do you have any better sources.? - SUN EYE 1 12:50, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

As per the link, it says Ceylon, Lunka, the Cingalese country. Ceylon is former name of Sri Lanka. What is Lunka? What is Cingalese country? If Eelam also means Sinhala, would Sinhala means Eelam? You have to see the lexical root and other factors. Otherwise, someone could edit the article Sinhala and add the above links and elaborate "Sinhala is an Indo-Aryan language primarily spoken by the Sinhalese people of Sri Lanka, and it means Eelam." --AntanO 17:42, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: In the Wikipedia article about Eelam, it says "Eelam is also a name for the spurge (a plant), toddy (an intoxicant) and gold". The source given to prove this statement is the Tamil Lexicon dictionary. The same source used in this article says that Eelam also means Sinhala. According to your logic, anyone can edit the Gold Wikipedia article and argue that Eelam is also another name for gold and include it there. Same way, anyone can edit the Toddy Wikipedia article and argue that Eelam is another name for Toddy and include it there. But it has not been done so far. I can ask you the same questions. If Eelam means Gold, would Gold mean Eelam? If Eelam means Toddy, would Toddy mean Eelam? JohnWiki159 (talk) 20:20, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

If it right thing to do, you can edit Gold and Toddy or you can question about Eelam = spurge, Gold and Toddy. I do not thing these are right synonym. If Eelam = spurge, Gold and Toddy, you have to find etymology too. I'd say to do more research than depend on dictionary. I never see any dictionary with words of Lunka and Cingalese! --AntanO 02:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I have places dubious template and I support to remove the Eelam = spurge, Gold and Toddy since we cannot rely on dictionary as it failed to give etymology of the term. Actually, Eelam is a Tamil term of the island, (now called) Sri Lanka. Refer What Do the Terms 'Eelam' and 'Ilankai' Mean? and Names of Sri Lanka --AntanO 03:26, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: You have provided an extract of a news paper article published by Sunday Observer which presents the views of a random person. This article contains a lot of POV statements. The Tamil Lexicon published by the University of Madras is more reputed and trusted than this random piece of news article. You have given me a link to a website maintained by the Association of Tamils in USA. Now, refer this : Tamil Net. Tamil Net is a widely used website by Tamils all over the world. Tamil Net also contains highly biased information. The article in that website also says that Eelam also means Sinhala. JohnWiki159 (talk) 08:28, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: @JohnWiki159: I believe these dictionaries to be very reliable and a good work of professionals. And i don't believe that simply a personal opinion can discard it. Afterall the aim of wikipedia is to provide the user objective information, thus no information should be removed without solid proof of them being false. Dilshanheimler (talk) 19:40, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Dilshanheimler:Exactly 👍 JohnWiki159 (talk) 11:10, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

\\The article in that website also says that Eelam also means Sinhala. \\ So, can you add this into Sinhala article too? --AntanO 18:13, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: This wikipedia article about Eelam says Eelam also means Gold, Toddy and Spurge. So can you add this into Gold, Toddy and Spurge articles too? You are not watching this from a neutral point of view. You seem to be really biased. JohnWiki159 (talk) 11:05, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Stop the personal attacks. If both the meanings are notable, then they must simply be available in multiple sources, if not, what are they doing here? - SUN EYE 1 12:56, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

@Suneye1: I have given multiple sources in this discussion. Please refer them. JohnWiki159 (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

If you want, you can add on relevant articles. BTW, you did not say anything about Lunka and the Cingalese country that were mentioned on reputed and trusted sources? What is Lunka? What is the relation between Lunka and Eelam? --AntanO 17:22, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

In the same way, if you want you can add on relevant article too. Tamil Lexicon says nothing about 'Lunka'. This wikipedia article has used the same reputed and trusted sources to talk about other meanings of the word 'Eelam'. Why are you not worried about that? You seemed to be worried only about Sinhala being used as another meaning for Eelam. JohnWiki159 (talk) 14:32, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

It is dubious and added Dubious template. I said to remove all dubious section. Therefore, I don't want to add in other articles. Do you get my point? I think you are not interested on solution, but forced to add beyond Wikipedia value. Also, I see you are familiar with Wiki policy in short time which seems to me fishy. --AntanO 02:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Then completely remove all the references taken from Tamil Lexicon and Tamil Net. You individually can't decide what you want to keep and what not to not keep. What do you mean by I am familiar with wiki policy in short time? There are enough tutorials on google and youtube on how to use and edit wikipedia. Do you expect me to take like one year to learn how to use wikipedia? JohnWiki159 (talk) 07:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Ilam would mean the Land of the Sinhalese Here I have cited an opinion of a scholar regarding the name Ilam and the land of Sinhalese! (Cited: Indrapala, Karthigesu (1965). Dravidian settlements in Ceylon and the beginning of the Kingdom of Jaffna. London: Thesis submitted for the Degree of Doctor of Philosophy, University of London.pp. 26-28.)

"These factors, in his opinion, should lead one to conclude prima facie that, at the earliest times, Ilam was occupied, at least in the main, by a Tamil-speaking people. This argument is far from logical. Presumably it rests on the fact that Ilam is now used only in Tamil as a name for Ceylon. But the origin of this name, far from indicating that the island was occupied by Tamil-speaking people in ancient times, shows that the people from whose name Ilam is derived were Sinhalese. The earliest occurrence of this name is in the Brhmi inscriptions of South India. In these inscriptions, from Tirupparankuram and Sittannavasal, occurs the Prakrit form of this name, namely Ila. Evidently it is from this Prakrit form that the Tamil Ilam is derived. It could be shown that Ila is derived from Sinhala through the Pali Sihala, or more probably through another Prakrit form Sihila. The name Sinhala has two elements, sih a and la. The Sanskrit sinha becomes siha in Pali. Siha becomes sihi and si (the consonant h is dropped when its position is between two similar vowels and the two vowels coalesce) in Sinhalese. Sinhala could, therefore, have become Sihila and later Sila in early Sinhalese, and probably even in other Prakritic languages, although no record of such a form has survived in Sinhalese. It is not difficult to derive the forms Ila and Ilam from Sila. In the early period, when Sanskrit and Prakrit words were borrowed into Tamil, those with the initial letter a often dropped that consonant. The name Sila, when used in the Tamil country, would, therefore, have become Ila, as indeed it occurs in the pre-Christian Brahmi inscriptions there. Since the la in Prakrit and the la in Tamil are interchangeable, Ila would become Ila and the final form Ilam is derived from this by the addition of the consonant m, which too is in keeping with the rules governing the form of borrowed Sanskrit and Prakrit words ending with the vowel a, especially the neuter nouns or those designating inanimate objects. Thus, Ilam could be derived from the name Sinhala and would, therefore, mean the land of the Sinhalese rather than indicate that Ceylon was originally settled by Tamils"

.--L Manju (talk) 09:16, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: Lunka and Cingalese are not other than Lanka and Sinhalese. I think you don't have a problem with pronunciations --L Manju (talk) 09:24, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

// You individually can't decide what you want to keep and what not to not keep.// You too. That's why I started discussion. This is not about etymology, and under the "Etymology" there are 2 versions; one says Eelam to Sinhala and Sinhala to Eelam. Therefore, you cannot come to conclusion. //Lunka and Cingalese are not other than Lanka and Sinhalese// Reference please. FYI: Lanka (/ˈlæŋkə/, Hindustani: [ˈləŋkaː]). Sinhala (/ˈsɪnhələ, ˈsɪŋələ/ SIN-hə-lə, SING-ə-lə;[2] සිංහල, siṁhala, [ˈsiŋɦələ]), (/ˌsɪn(h)əˈliːz, ˌsɪŋ(ɡ)ə-/). --AntanO 01:41, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

There are numerous books using Cingalese word for the Sinhala people in Sri Lanka. I wonder you haven't read at least one of those books. Please just Google the word Cingalese and it will show you that it is the archaic spelling of Sinhalese (both adjective and noun). Lunka: You can keep pronounce it as லுங்கா while others will pronounce it லங்கா. --L Manju (talk) 02:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: //What is Cingalese country?//Moreover, there is no "Cingalese country// Cingalese country is a term used in ancient times to identify Sri Lanka. Ex: "Sinhaladvipa" which means the "Sinhalese country/island" is an ancient Sanskrit name used to denote Sri Lanka. In Tamil language, as there no letter for "H", Sinhalese can be written as Singalese because they use the letter க for "G", "K" and for "H" sounds. Also the letter ச is used to denote both "S" and "Cha" sound, therefore Sinhalese can also be written as Chingalese or Sinhala as Chingkalam.

Also I found this from Tamilnet website (although it is not a reliable source it has given all primary references that we are looking for) which has explained that Ilam could also mean gold, toddy, etc.

Eezham = Name of the island called Sri Lanka today. In this sense it is found written in Tamil literature and Tamil Brahmi inscription dating back to the dawn of the Common Era (1st century BCE / 1st century CE); Eezham: Name of the country equated with Chingka’lam and another meaning given is gold (Tamil lexicons Cheanthan Thivaakaram of 8th century CE and Pingkalam of 10th century CE, Dravidian Etymological Dictionary 550); An additional meaning toddy is given by Choodaama’ni lexicon of 13th century CE; Eezhak-kaasu: Gold coin (comes in Tamil inscriptions dating from 912 CE); Eezha-vi’lakku: A kind of lamp made of Eezham alloy of metal or in the style of Eezham (Comes in Tamil inscriptions dating from 808 CE; Illama: A vein of metal (Sinhala, Clough’s Dictionary); Eezhavar: Name of a community that was climbing coconut and Palmyra palms (comes in Tamil inscriptions dating from 789 CE). The community found in Kerala today traces its origins to the island of Eezham; Heḷa-divi, Heḷa-ṭuva, Heḷa: The He'la Island (Sigiri graffiti, c.8-9th century CE, Dhampiyaa aṭuvaa gæṭapadaya, Sinhala literature, 10th century CE, Clough’s Dictionary); Heḷa-basa, Heḷu: The language of He'la; Dhampiyaa aṭuvaa gæṭapadaya, Sinhala literature, 10th century CE, equated with E'lu or ancient language of Ceylon (Clough’s Sinhala Dictionary); Eḷu: The country of E'lu as in the title of the Sinhala literature Eḷu Bōdhi Vamsa. Also language in later usages; Eḷuwa: The ancient Sinhalese language (Clough’s Sinhala Dictionary); E’lu-dhoo-karaa: (Eḷu dū karā): The land / coast / border of the E’lu Island. The traditional way Maldivians called today’s island of Sri Lanka in their literature and speech (Dhivehi Bas Foi, Maldivian Dictionary).

As we cant put every elaborated theories of etymology for the word Ilam in the beginning part of this article, it is suitable to simply denote that "the word Eelam could means the Sinhalese, toddy, gold etc. --L Manju (talk) 05:43, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Does the dictionary based on transliteration or word? What you try to interpret the terms are seem your own interpretation, not as standard Tamil. Maybe you can get help from Tamil rather than referring me Google which is beta and not correct. If Eelam could means the Sinhalese, can you write under Sinhalese that it could could means the Eelam? --AntanO 07:36, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: What is called standard Tamil. Is there such a thing? because there are many dialects in Tamil and they have differences. First it should be understood that Eelam, according to the opinion of academics, could mean the "land of Sinhalese" (as per the view of Indrapala and Madras university dictionary) or land of toddy" (as per Peter Schalk where he says that "Ilam means “the land of toddy”, but it refers to the island known as Ilam, Tambapanni, Ilankai, or Cinkalam") or other meanings. The simple thing here we have to understand is to distinguish the meaning and reference of a word. We don't know the exact meaning of Eelam but we know it refers to the country now known as Sri Lanka. As scholars have shown the relationship between the Eelam and Sinhala, and toddy, it can be said that Eelam could mean the land of Sinhalese, or the land of toddy etc because all these refer to Sri Lanka. I have already given here a proper reference (not a dictionary) that shows that Eelam could refer to the land of Sinhalese (or Congalese country = modern Sri Lanka). In this additional article, Dr Peter Schalk has shown that Eelam could mean “the land of toddy” (https://iravie.com/a-short-history-of-the-words-ilam-and-ilavar/).

By the way, I want to know what is "Sinhalese" (an article?) you have repeated again and again in your discussion? //If Eelam could means the Sinhalese, can you write under Sinhalese that it could could means the Eelam// --L Manju (talk) 08:52, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I think you have lack of knowledge in Tamil. Dialects isn't entire Tamil language, and written Tamil is standard. As per according to another opinion of academics, Sinhala derived from Eelam. Therefore, you cannot conclude, but add those different opinions (as it already added) in the article. //I want to know what is "Sinhalese" // See entire discussion. --AntanO 03:23, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

I've read through the above discussion and frankly, I'm struggling to see what the fuss is all about. The statement concerned was about the several meanings of a word in Tamil. This was sourced to one of the dictionaries available online at the DSAL, and it was trivially easy to verify that these meanings can be found in some of the other dictionaries in the same place:

• Winslow, Miron. A comprehensive Tamil and English dictionary of high and low Tamil. Madras: P.R. Hunt, 1862. [1]
• University of Madras. Tamil lexicon. 1924-1936. [2]
• Fabricius, Johann Philipp. J. P. Fabricius's Tamil and English dictionary. 4th ed., rev.and enl. Tranquebar: Evangelical Lutheran Mission Pub. House, 1972. [3]

Dictionaries are precisely the sort of sources you'd use for the meanings of words (what do you expect, dedicated academic papers for each meaning of each word?). And these ones appear to be good, if by now quite old. Of course, no-one is saying they're infallible, but you have to bring up at least some reason for challenging them, and I haven't so far seen any that's cogent. Of course, it's a different question whether that information is relevant in the first place (at the very least, it would seem out of place in the article's introduction), but if it's going to be included, it will naturally be sourced to dictionaries like the ones above. – Uanfala (talk) 20:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

"Eelam (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Eelam (disambiguation) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 5 § Eelam (disambiguation) until a consensus is reached. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:32, 5 August 2023 (UTC)