Talk:Egyptian Arabic/Archive 2

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Second Language?

The article states that Egyptian is spoken as a "Second language" in other Arabic speaking countries. This not true, while most natives speakers of Arabic understand Egyptian, they do not speak it, it does not qualify as a second language the way French qualifies as a second language in the Maghreb or english qualifies as a second language in some European countries. This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.112.128.230 (talk • contribs)

This is wiki; please, feel free to improve upon the article. — [ziʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 17:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Today, I had the opportunity to witness a non-native speaker of Egyptian Arabic, who has never been to Egypt, code-switch between Egyptian and Palestinian Arabic in a manner typical of bilingual code-switching. He was clearly speaking Egyptian, contrary to the assertion that "they do not speak it" (albeit with a strong Palestinian accent). Code-switching is also popular among some Yemenite communities who consider Egyptian a prestige variety in a manner roughly corresponding to French in known linguistic contexts. I was reminded of this comment and wondered why it wouldn't apply to these situations? — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 05:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you think in?

To any Egyptian who fights the fact that Masri is a language, just think for a minute. There you go, what did you think in? Masri not classical Arabic. Try to hold a conversation for 10 minutes in gramatically correct classical Arabic ... Stop already, you know you can't. Now try that in gramatically correct Masri, and yes there is grammar in Masri. Just because it isn't standardized doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is this sentence gramatically correct:

shoof el bent el Helween dole

No it isn't, so grammar exists.

So what's your mother language? One in which you can talk freely or one in which you can't hold a conversation for 10 minutes?

Now for differentiation, is it different enough to be a language? I don't think there is an objective answer. Serb and Croat are the same but are differentiated by script, same for Urdu and Hindi. Masri and classical Arabic are different in much more fundamental ways, structure, word frequency, case endings, assimilated loan words, etc..

As for the number of loanwords, the list is very long. I saw lists for loans from French and Italian that went for 10 pages of fineprint. There are significant hidden Turkish and Armenian loans, not to mention Coptic. English is making an impact now, but assimilation hasn't matured as for French and Italian.

Masri is a language born from and firmly rooted in Arabic, it currently exists in a state of diglossia with its parent language, but the question needs to be asked now rather than later: Is it in the interest of literacy and literary expression that diglossia continues? Or will we go the way of Greece and relegate classical Arabic to liturgical and historical use?

Karim

I agree with Mohieddin that - what u call - egyptian arabic / masri is a very vague expression ; if u'll make our Northern Cairine dialect a language and call it Masri; then u'll have to consider the dialect of upper egypt ( which is closer to Saudi dialect ( language ? ) than our dialect ; u'll have to call it Se3idi language ; u'll be makin urself a mockery by sayin so

i want to let u know 1 thing : u can't consider cockney dialect of english a separate language just because an english man who speaks cockney can't think in standard english for 10 minutes; nor because no1 who speaks english can understand that dialect even englishmen themselves find it so hard to understand it ; u can only consider it a separate language if it becomes different enough from english ; regarding its words and grammer

and Guess what : most of egyptians - those who r not illiterate at least - can think and write in standard arabic ; i wonder how did u pass ur school exams if not writin in standard arabic; even primary school kids write their answers easily in standard arabic ( i'm not talkin about i3raab here )

talkin about borrowed words from other languages is a known known phenomenon in all languages ; the hundred Latin words in english didn't make of english a latin language ; this is only an example

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloud numbre 7 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Saiidi is a distinct language, that's a fact. Most Baharis can't even understand unrestrained Saiidi. As to the variations within the delta, we all know they are very minor, this may actually be a good chance to point out what dialects actually are, Alexandrian Masri and Cairene Masri are dialects, but Egyptian Arabic is hardly a dialect.

As to the cockney argument, well Egyptian IS substantially different from Arabic in syntax and vocabulary. The divide (as the good old tired analogy goes) is like that between Latin and Romance languages rather than Cockney and "proper English".

I did pass my high school exam, so did you obviously, but Arabic is the mother tongue of neither of us. I can hold a conversation in proper English for hours and can think in English, but it most definitely is not my mother language. The situation with Classical Arabic is very similar, you learn it as a second language at school rather than a first language at home.

When English borrowed immensely from Latin it developed into a new language. Yes it did, old and middle English are distinct from modern English and are totally unitellegible to any of us (especially old). Because English was allowed to develop freely, the modern language became the "proper" language and became standardized.

Just think about this issue without letting Pan-Arabism or religious issues fog it, and you'd see what I mean.

-Karim

Well I love all that's been said so far, But I have to ask when you meet another Arab what do you ask him do you ask him do you speak lebanese/morrocan or do you ask him if he speaks Arabic. You say keep religuos issues out of it I've never included it, though you come to Pan-Arabism such a move to call our dialect a language and simply name it "masry" for instance is a blow to that. Though I am not advocating for that since this is not the issue it however shows me how people are becoming too nationalistic and do infact look down on Arabs as being inferior. People in Egypt recently seperate themselves from Arabs we are not Arabs we are different or lebanese we are not Arabs we are phoenicians. Claiming our dialect to be a language seems to me as just one other way of disassociating ourseleves from the rest of Arab world which in itself is a political agenda. Zakaria mohyeldin 00:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Zakariya, I understand what you mean and I promise my opinions are minimalist in their ideology! I know the trend you describe, the post 9/11 frantic run to distance oneself from everything Arab, and I think it's a very simplistic and cowardly trend. But if you read what I've written so far you will find none of the "I hate those camel herders" tone typical to such rhetoric. In fact, my opinion doesn't deny the theory that Egyptians are Arabic (or support it), because Masri will remain an Arabic language, the keyword here is "language", and not the removal of Arabic from the phrase Egyptian Arabic.

And believe it or not, when I meet a Lebanese/Iraqi/Gulf Arab and start speaking, they usualy look disappointed as they mutter under their breath " Oh you speak Masri ". Their words not mine.

The question is not nationalism (in which language plays a very minor role, Pan-Arabism is a failure for many social and political reasons rather than ethnic reasons), the question is admitting a fact, we speak our mother tongue but refuse to write it or to even imagine it written. We learn to read and write a dead language. Illiteracy is still around 50% in Egypt. Can someone please study the effects of diglossia on our educational system and on the literary scene? I am not saying jump to conclusions, just ask the questions, and try to answer them whatever the answer is. Unfortunately, we all know because of intellectual terror, no academic in Egypt would dare ask these questions.Karim Abbas

Zakaria, the Lebanese and Moroccan examples you used are interesting. My experience with Moroccans and Lebanese in particular is that more than other Arabic-speakers they will say that they speak Maghrebi and Lubnani and not really Arabic. The Lebanese in particular are very nationalistic about their dialect/language in part because of the conflict with the Syrians (even though Syrio-Lebanese is much like Serbo-Croatian). Take a look at Lebanese Arabic. Moroccan probably has more to do with the fact that is one of the most divergent spoken varieties in the region. Let's also not forget Hassaniya which is recognized as an independent language from Arabic in Mauritania.

I'm not sure I understand the bit about calling the language Masri. This is one of the most common references to Egyptian Arabic in relation to other varieties. The other is ʻamiyyah ("vernacular") though this is used in contrast to Classical Arabic and is vague in a wider context. Masri is also used by writers such as Adel Darwish. See his recent article in Ash-Sharq al-Awsat on the Dahab attacks [1]:

أما جريمة دهب فربطت تقارير المخابرات بينها وبين شريط «شيخ المنسر» (رئيس العصابة بالمصري) اسامة بن لادن الذي بثته الجزيرة

Also, I agree with you in regard to ultra-nationalism in general. But what about pan-Arabism and Arab nationalism? Why criticize regional varieties of nationalism and stop there; why the double-standard with respect to Arab nationalism? I don't agree that Egyptians disassociating themselves from Arabism is a recent phenomenon. Many Egyptians who regard it as a denial of their identity and heritage have long resented it. What happened to Tawfiq el-Hakim, Taha Hussein, Saad Zaghloul, Mustafa Kamil, and many others, all of whom disassociated Egypt from Arabism? I would argue that Egyptians only recently startd to think of themselves as Arabs in the sense used post-Nasserism. This was the conclusion of Leila Ahmed in her research on the topic.

Let's also point out that pan-Arabism for some has meant the irrevocable loss of many indigenous cultures and languages in the Middle East, and the continued erasure of diversity in the region. As far as I can tell, those who are calling for more recognition of Masri are also calling for the same rights to Nubian, Berber (yes, the Siwis speak a Berber language), Beja, Domari which are usually denied in the name of this supposed "Arab" uniformity. — Zerida ^* 02:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I found the name properly referenced on the German Wikipedia [2]. I also came across this link with sound clips of standard Arabic, Egyptian and Moroccan renderings of the same phrases. Very interesting when you listen to each side by side for comparative purposes [3]. — Zerida ^* 21:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Lebanese is probably a very interesting case here given that Northern Arabic probably developed partly in Lebanon, the Phoenecian argument is sort of funny since Phoenecian culture was restricted to coastal regions and extended more into Palestine than proper Syro-Lebanon. I cosign to disossiation from Arabs being an original notion of Egyptian identity, actually upto the socialist revolution, Arab was exclusively used in reference to bedwins. Even nowadays, the word Arab (outside newspapers and official addresses) invariably means someone from the Gulf to most Egyptians, and is (unfortunately) used almost exclusively in a derisive manner.

The point I don't understand is why Arabic is blamed for loss of indegenous cultures? Do you mean due to Arabization campaigns along the lines of Algeria or the fact that many Semitic languages were replaced by Arabic with the Islamic expansion? Because if it's the former, then okay, but other than berbers in Algeria and Kurds in Iraq (who were and are much better off than Kurds in non-Arab Turkey), I don't see where Arabic was particularly criminal! The effect of Arabic on the middle east is pretty much the effect Aramaic had before, and nobody seemed to mind that. Wouldn't you say this is almost exclusively a politically motivated issue? As to the situation in Egypt, there is little official support for Domari, Beja, and Tamazight, but the populations that speak these languages are admittedly extremely small, and making accomodations for their language in an already ailing educational system is unrealistic. Therefore they may sadly face extinction, but not due to a systematic campaign (very few things are systematic in Egypt), rather due to normal pressures. These languages (Nubian languages may escape this) are headed the same way of Cypriot Maronite Arabic.--Karkaron 03:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I was only referring to modern-day nationalism. It has had a subversive impact on both the Arabic vernaculars, most of which are essentially denied existence, and the non-Arabic languages in the region. I have to principally disagree with the assertion regarding Nobiin. At least from the Nubians' perspective [4] [5], there has been a systematic effort by the government to marginalize their community ever since they were displaced from their historic lands, which is also leading to the loss of their language. — Zerida ^* 07:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Nubian/coptic/berber

I would just like to state that even though I don't agree Egyptian Arabic to be a language I agree with creating a system to save the nubian berber and the coptic languages. Though in the coptic case I think it's too late to try and influence people to start using it again. Nubian however still survives and very strongly so I know that non nubian children who go to school in nubian dominated areas learn to speak it from interaction. And it should be taught at schools in the respective areas, but there is one issue with that as it could lead to segregation between the "kanzi" and the "fadadgy" the two nubian tribes who each have their own language. Berber langauge in siwa should be left up to the siwis I guess they have some autonomy about their affairs I presume though I could be mistaken. Zakaria mohyeldin 07:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wish you were in charge of these matters in Egypt! — mark ✎ 08:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

(And believe it or not, when I meet a Lebanese/Iraqi/Gulf Arab and start speaking, they usualy look disappointed as they mutter under their breath " Oh you speak Masri ". Their words not mine.

أما جريمة دهب فربطت تقارير المخابرات بينها وبين شريط «شيخ المنسر» (رئيس العصابة بالمصري) اسامة بن لادن الذي بثته الجزيرة)

what's is meant by Egyptian here is the dialect and not a language ; because no1 thinks of Egyptian dialect as a language other than u ! i asked many Arab and non Arab friends who spent most of their lives in Saudi Arabia - they can speak Arabic and understand most of its dialects - i asked if they think it's fair to consider Masri a language ; they all thought this is a joke ! talkin about separatin us from our Arab from our Arab roots isn't a fear or a theory of u Mohyyi it's a fact that i'm afraid people who consider themselves egyptians like us r playin a role in  ; but i don't think we accept that such persons relate themselves to Egypt

it's not a big issue what they r sayin about our dialect cause it will always - no matter how hard they try - be their own point ; i guess u have to take a look at what is written in this page about the Arab conquests ( futuh ) ; and how Quran lionized Alexander the Great - or take a look at what they say about Salman al faresi and how far was his influence on our religion and language !

Saving Nubian ; Berber and all other surviving languages of egypt is a responsibility on us egyptian arabs ; these languages r inheritance for all egyptians ; all egyptians have to take care of this cultural and lingual inheritance of egypt ; it's so sad to know that Nubian is strugglin to survive at a time when Nubian young men prefere to speak arabic instead of Nubian the residents of Western Sahara r called Berber ; but the term Berber itself is vague cause Arabs used it to call al the non Arab residents of Norh Africa - the word is supposed to be originally used by Romans to call them as they used to word to call all the non Romans ; but those residents of Western Sahara have no relations with the Amazeegh of Algeria ; even those Amazeegh r not united in language nor origins but they r just collectively called Berbers

i have 1 single Question to English and American people : do u consider old english a separate language from modern english ? the same about French / Spanish / Urdu and all other languages Cloud numbre 7

A Dilemma : people in Senbellawaen villages ( nearby my city el Mansoura ) speak a dialect that's not much different from what u called Saiidi language ; so when i'm talkin with a farmer from Senbellawin in my city we're talkin in 2 different languages yet we clearly understand each other ? for the first time i'm startin to beleive that our dialects variety and richness is usefull ; they will always be a shield protectin us from such ******** that u say

Cloud numbre 7

Take it easy on the conspiracy theory and chill man. My gradma came from Senbelawein, what you consider close to Saiidi is just Felahini, true Saiidi is not the dialect you hear from middle Egyptians or Cairo resident Saiidis, if you visit the deep Saiid (Sohag e.g.) try to understand a conversation between natives, you can't.

Again separate Arab pride and religion from this, and you'd see my point, if you keep shoving it into the issue it's not gonna go anywhere. What the hell does the "lionisation of blah blah" have to do with anything?

As to old English, you're probably doing the classical mistake that many Egyptians do by mixing mediaeval English (as in Shakespeare) with old English (as in Beowulf). Here's a sample of text in old English:

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum, þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Lo! We of Spear-Danes in days of yore, Have heard of the fame of the kings, How those nobles did great deeds

I think the classification is hardly a matter of opinion as you can clearly see.

Coptic and Nubi are protected in the academic sense that many of you are suggesting. Many people research and study these languages upto the post doctorate level (especially Coptic). As to day to day survival, for Coptic it's no longer an issue, for Nubian it's a matter of dilution of Nubian communities and their diaspora. Ironically, while Nubian cultural elements are becoming pop symbols (songs, poems, dress, architecture, etc..) practicality of learning the language is dropping. Nobody can survive in Egypt without Arabic, which is more or less the case for French in France, German in Germany, or English in the US. I would support making Nubian available as a second language in high Nubian population areas (which are like where?) but I doubt many people will choose it over English or French.

One more thing, most people arguing for the Egyptian identity don't deny Egypt's Arab identity or the important role of classical Arabic. Most people only argue that there may practical advantages to opening your eyes and seeing the truth. In addition I don't see what's so wrong with Egyptian pride, how is it better or worse than Arab pride? As far as I am concerned all forms of nationalism are stupid, but at least Egyptian nationalism makes more sense than something as vague as Arab identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karkaron (talk • contribs)

I think the last three years have witnessed a change in the direction of the vernacular, which is great news for linguists and others interested in this particular area but who are faced with the challenge of conspiratorial thinking that does plague the topic. Hopefully, this will mean a move away from simplistic arguments that treat the subject arbitrarily as has often been the case. You may be interested in checking out Owens (2003), Arabic dialect history and historical linguistic mythology [6] and also his upcoming book on the topic. — Zerida ^* 06:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Port Said dialect

Here is a link to a list of words in the Port Said dialect that according to the site is an amalgam of words from various regional Egyptian dialects. It also contains a list of loanwords from European languages. One would think that coastal dialects like those of Port Said, Alexandria and Rosetta would be prone to having the largest amount of European loanwords.

http://portsaid-online.com/html/pslove/lahga.htm

— Zerida ^* 20:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

quest for references and specifications

Dear Zerida (and everyone esle!)
I don't know about that, but in the "Official status" section, the following is written:

"Following Nasser's death [...] calls for making Egyptian Arabic an official language and the language of education reappeared."

Now I would really like to know, who was behind these "calls"? Any names, any refs.?! Because I just don't know and don't think that such calls really existed! Otherwise I hope I will become acknowledged about them.
Most appreciatively, __Maysara 21:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Meeso! The calls for the adoption of Masri as the formal language of writing appeared in fact even while Nasser was alive, though because Sadat was more Egyptian-oriented (i.e. no real interest in Arab nationalism) intellectuals were freer to express their opinions on the vernacular more openly under Sadat and beyond, like they had before Nasser. Did you have a look at the references I recommended before? Osman Sabri, a mustashaar in the Egyptian judiciary, is quoted by Haeri (2003) urging Egyptians as early as 1967 to transform their vernacular into a formal language. The most prominent expression was more recently made by the founding members of Masr el Um, but Bayoumi Qandil had for long expressed similar ideas in his writings (though I don't believe they're available in English). The question was debated in the Egyptian Arabic journal ibn 'Arous founded by Mohammed el Boghdadi and discussed by different writers in Rose el Youssef magazine. Leila Ahmed, who writes in English, made direct calls to that effect. For example, in her 1999 title A Border Passage, she writes:

"...the language and culture in which I grew up [were] Cairene Egyptian culture and language. For me [...] this language of standard Arabic was not my mother tongue [...] There is no linguistic reason why Egyptian Arabic could not be a written language, only political reasons [...] I am making a plea for a recognition of the enormous linguistic and cultural diversity that makes up the Arab world. And I am arguing for our developing a creative approach that, instead of silencing and erasing the tremendous wealth that this diversity represents, would foster it and foster the developments, on at least equal footing with standard Arabic, of written forms of Moroccan, Gulf, Egyptian, Iraqi, Palestinian, and other Arabics, and also of the non-Arabic living languages of the region, such as Nubian and Berber." (pp. 282-84).

Also, it's important to acknowledge what many "ordinary" Egyptians themselves express—40% of the people interviewed in Haeri (1996) [7] said they would like to write in Egyptian Arabic when asked whether they would like to write in it or in Standard Arabic (SA), and 20% said both (the remaining 40% said SA). 68% said they simply preferred Egyptian over SA while 5% said they liked both the same.

This is not directly relevant, but you may be interested in reading this article [8] which talks about a Moroccan novelist's choice to write exclusively in Darija. Another is this attempt to standardize Palestinian Arabic [9]. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 06:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hello there -- well, I knew only of Andil's work (starting in 1991). Leila's "calls" much later, 1999. I don't know about the dates of the two magazines but for some reason I have the impression that their articles on the vernacular would be as recent as in the 90s, or at best the 80s. And "Othman Sabri", among many others, seems to had been more concerned with the writing and simplification of "Arabic" than the official status of the Egyptian vernacular(?) Anyway, "Following Nasser's death" does not seem to be very accurate, does it?! Also, "calls", gives the impression of a little more wider and prevailant movement. However, I will try to add these information themselves as I think them worthy of being presented in the article itself. The page-numbers of Haeri's conclusions would be great, I mean here, for the interviews he did. Thank you, __Maysara 12:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Osman Sabri's writing is surprisingly frank for its time (1967—ironically, or perhaps aptly, the year of Naksa when many supposed "Arab dreams" were dashed). This is an excerpt:

Egyptian Arabic was created by our fathers and grand-parents... We learned it while we were still young and pronounced in it the first words that left our mouths... we began to love it just like we love our fathers and mothers. We add something new to it everyday, and in doing so we feel that we are perfecting it—we educate it and bring it up as if it were our daughter and we grow to love it like we love our children. Our love for it is twofold: the love for our parents and the love for our children... Egyptian Arabic [is] what I am inviting everyone to write in because it is ours and it is a possession in our hands, we knead it and develop it according to our needs and desires and moods, without obligation to any limits...and I ask all those who object: 'why this hypocrisy or literary cowardice?' and 'why this circling around?' Is it not better and easier that we confront the facts and call things by their name (qtd in Haeri 2003, pp. 143-44).

I think you may conclude that Sabri is calling for a little more than just a simplification of literary Arabic. In fact, he is explicitly against altering the classical register of Arabic to maintain its historical character, and believes switching to Egyptian Arabic is a more reasonable and practical undertaking. But you're right that the statements in the article could use to be reworded.

Also, Haeri interviews el-Hag Madbouli in her 2003 book. He is the owner of the most popular bookstore chain in Cairo as I'm sure you know, and he too had very interesting stuff to say here. He states that books in the vernacular ('ammiyya) are sold out within a short period of being released and are usually in far more demand than books in Standard/Classical Arabic (books in Egyptian are few and far between.) He says there is a "craving for 'ammiyya." When told that many publishers would argue that books in Masri would not sell in, say, the Maghreb or the Arab Gulf, he said it did not matter and added, "We are 65 million in Egypt, as big as the Arab region and we can sell here 3000 copies in Egypt. It is not necessary for it to be related to any other country" (p. 124).

The interviews asking speakers about their attitude toward the classical and vernacular languages are in Haeri's 1996 volume, The Sociolinguistic Market of Cairo. They are on pp. 212 and 205 respectively. Hope this helps. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 08:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you so much Zerida for all the quotations and refs. Osman Sabri's views, now with the quote, are quite worthy of being added in the article itself. I'm still working on it and I just sometimes don't get the time. "The time .. the time .. whooose got the time" __Said the White Rabbit! Best, __Maysara 23:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation and Author name needed

For the following statements:

"Egyptian Arabic [...] descended mainly from a medieval dialect of Arabic. It originated in the Nile Delta region (Lower Egypt) around its urban centers, Cairo and Alexandria."

"Arabic may have been already familiar to Egyptians through pre-Islamic trade with Bedouin Arab tribes in the Sinai and the easternmost part of the Nile Delta. Egyptian Arabic seems to have begun taking shape in Fustat, ..."

Citation is most needed, and I think also the name of the Author(s) who proposed these rather complex theories!
Thank you, __Maysara 22:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Pre-Islamic linguistic contact between Egyptians and Arabs is mentioned in Versteegh (1997). He suggests, for example, that Arabic had some presence in Egypt before Islam as Bedouin Arab tribes may have lived as close to the Nile Valley as the Sharqiya province. Post-Islam, he mentions Fustat as being the initial location where Arabic would have taken hold and started to spread within the Nile Valley.

There is also plenty of primary sources. Arabs are frequently mentioned in Egyptian, particularly Demotic, texts as trade partners, as enemies, as war captives. A Demotic papyrus, for example, recounts an older event when 12th Dynasty kings Amenemhat I and Senusret I conquered "the Arab Land". They appear to have traded with Egyptians throughout the ancient period.

I realize the article is in need of in-text citations, which I had been planning to do, along with expanding the syntax and phonology sections, but time hasn't permitted lately. Perhaps we could start a to-do list? — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 09:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• Zerida -- Then, if a citation indicating the Author's name and page number(s) such as: (Versteegh, pp. ..) and an addition of Versteegh's work in the "References" section are all given, it would be most appreciated. Such type of information particularly require more strict and exacting citation.

In respect to the Demotic document, I'm afraid it does not seem to be a sufficeint indication of linguistic contact that would later contribute to the Egyptian Vernacular, even beyond Coptic, that will still come between Demotic and the Egyptian Vernacular or Egyptian Arabic as it is so-called. Egyptians had had several similar contacts with so many other nations and communities - and that they might have just known Arabic does not contribute really to whether this mere knowledge had had any influence over their native languages (BEFORE the Arabic invasion) - I reckon they, the Egyptians, had had a similar knowledge of so many other languages from the Levant, of course as well as Nubian for example, which at the time was even written in their Hieroglyphic and then Cotpic script, along with all the languages coming from Libya and further in the west where the sun descended into the underworld and where the dead concluded! Yet, it does not seem historically plausible, that the Arabs could have exercised a considerable influence over the language of Egyptians, before they had to invade them. However, did Versteegh suggested that "Egyptian Arabic descended mainly from a medieval dialect of Arabic."? If yes where? If no then whom did, where?

Anyway, I am quite fascinated, and mystified, at your almost encyclopedic knowledge of the subject. Though I believe some very significant elements are still missing. There are also certain problems in the representation of information and conclusions. I have long known about Haeri's book but unfortunately never got the chance to read it so far, otherwise I would have added the citations myself. So I have recently been inspecting this article in order to make some additions and reforms to it which I hope you'll find suitable.

Thank you for all the output, and congratulations for the new signature! __Maysara 11:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, make any improvements to the article that you think are appropriate. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that Arabic influenced Egyptian prior to the Islamic conquest, only that it was apparently spoken by Bedouin tribes in the Eastern desert even prior to Islam. And I think we are using different terminology with regard to the language—you appear to be using Egyptian vernacular to mean that ancient Egyptian/Coptic and contemporary Masri are essentially the same. I am familiar with the opinion of some writers, such as Andil, that Masri is the last phase of the Egyptian language. Though I like his writings, I can't agree with this assertion. Modern spoken Egyptian, to be sure, has a Coptic substratum (Nishio 1996 [10] and Versteegh 2001 [11]), but it is not a development of nor a stage of the pre-Islamic language Tematramankimi any more than Moroccan is a development of Tamazight despite the enormous influence the latter has had on the former. Egyptian Arabic is descended from the vernacular Arabic that entered Egypt with the Muslim conquerors according to most Arabic historical linguists, which would mean that Egyptians underwent a process of language shift. Clive Holes (2004), who is mentioned at Classical Arabic, discusses this in detail. I'll do my best to return to the article soon. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 09:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Zerida -- well, I have no ultimate belief myself in any of the theories regarding historicity, I am just compelled to ask, who is behind what theory. You say: "Egyptian Arabic is descended from the vernacular Arabic that entered Egypt with the Muslim conquerors according to most Arabic historical linguists, ...", I just need to know who are those linguists, what books or articles they wrote, and where/when they were published - that's all. However, that "Egyptian Arabic" is -as so-considered- a descendant of some medieval Arabic, does not refute that it is still the "vernacular" of the Egyptian people; a vernacular may certainly be the product of a "language shift". In fact, the term "vernacular" does not describe the language itself as much as it describes the relation between a language and a people. I revere the Egyptian vernacular not because it is "pure", but because it is, of Egyptians, even if it were coming out from the womb of my foe's consciousness! -- Have a great time, really! __Maysara 23:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• okay .. "Lewis 'Awad" said that (about the medieval Arabic origin). I'm gonna add it. Now whom else? Versteegh? WhereWhen? Whom else?! !  ! __Maysara 00:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Lewis 'Awad a lot; he too had much to say about the vernacular. As for references, as I already mentioned, Clive Holes [12] (pp. 21-25) describes the situation extensively (and Versteegh [13] on p. 95). Holes does not believe that Egyptian Arabic or any Arabic vernacular is descended from Classical Arabic as is sometimes assumed by native speakers. He shows that extant papyri at the time of the Islamic conquests already shows some of the colloquial characteristics that we generally associate with the vernaculars. Most of the modern Arabic vernaculars are descended from a sort of "Vulgar" Arabic that was introduced by the Muslim armies in the conquered territories, much like the register of Latin that eventually gave rise to the Romance languages. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 03:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed alphabet

It looks like User:Mamduh is the inventor of the proposed alphabet used in this article, which would be original research, I think. Does anyone know more about it? The linked site isn't working for me. --Cam 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I just checked and it's working for me [14]. Yes, it would fall under WP:OR if kept in the body of the article, so the link currently under 'External links' should suffice. There was a proposal made by a former Egyptian prime minister (Abdel Aziz Fahmi) to switch to a Latin-based alphabet, but it never came to fruition. The most we can do is include that information under the History section. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 02:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Population & Reach

Does anyone know where the '76 million speakers' statistic comes from? Egypt has a population of over 80 million. It would also be helpful if someone could include the countries outside of Egypt where the dialect is spoken, or what dialects are similar. ####

Muslim brotherhood legal status

muslim brotherhood is currently banned by the egyptian government and we are not to judge whether they are good or bad guys, while outlawed is a more judgemental term 84.36.107.14 17:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• What the heck is the difference between banned and outlawed?! In a civil society (such as the laws of Egypt are civil!), NOTHING can be "banned" unless it be declared "outside the law" first. "to ban" is the action taken against those things that are first considered "outside the law" (and indeed, it appears to me that the M. Brothers are only outlawed, but not really banned, since they are so far continuing to advance through Egypt's stomach!). "Outlawed" is an objective and precise description, it assumes no value judgement against or for anyone (the MBs ARE outlawed, it is a factuality!). It is YOU who want to elevate the MBs. "Banned" here appears to me as an expression whose aim is to refer to the "outlawing" process as potentially oppressive. Or, most likely, as an euphemism that wants to hide the absence of "civility" that the expression "outlawed" certainly, and rightly, suggests. ___ I GOT YA! __Maysara 19:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

if you consider the word ban an elevation for the MB, then that means that you are biased against them, and bias is not wikipedia's policy I think, the brotherhood is banned by the egyptian government, and that's evident in egyptian media, in tv, newspapers radio and everything they call it الجماعة المحظورة which I think gets translated into english as "the banned group", they even don't call them الإخوان anymore, just الجماعة المحظورة, and I don't remember ever reading the word الجماعة الخارجة عن القانون which is the translation of "the outlawed group" if you cick on this : [Muslim_Brotherhood] you will get to the MB wikipedia page, press ctrl+f and type "outlaw", you'll get nothing, but if you type "ban" you'll find more than one entry.

plus wikipedia is not to judge people, and since the term "outlawed" indicates absence of civilty as you suggested, it then shouldn't be used, because it's judgemental, while the ban is a legal status, not suggesting neither bad or good descriptions. because ban could be for several reasons specially in a non-democratic country like egypt as you may know,

and please don't use caps nor use terms like "I GOT YA!" because it's uncivilized from a fellow egyptian like you, who's expected to respect the other,

I won't be editing the page again, if you revert the edits, then ok, you hate the MB very much and I can't do anything about it, good luck then :) 84.36.11.63 03:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Use and registers need to be more fully described

I think that a section should be added on the actual use of Masri versus MSA. This tends to be one of the more confused issues with people often claiming that all written material is in MSA while the situation is more complex. Masri is very heavily used in writing in signs, banners, slogans, and billboards. It probably has a larger share of the poetic scene than MSA, and is almost universally used in personal letters. One other interesting phenomena is that it has become the de-facto language of most bloggers, it is the language of Internet chat, and anyone that posts on a messageboard in MSA is likely to raise eyebrows. There should also be a thorough description of how the oral scene is. The common wisdom is that MSA is used in formal speech, but even there, unless the speech is written in advance and rehearsed people immediately switch into the "intellectual" register of Egyptian Arabic.

If people don't mind I may go ahead and write this section, I am writing about this here first because I am seriously not interested in an edit war so I want the input of pan-Arabists if they have a criticism of the above description. Karim

I certainly hope that disagreements are not preventing anybody from contributing to the article to make them as informative as possible. Policies like WP:NPOV and WP:3RR are here for a reason. It would be great if you added that information.

I have a newspaper cutout that I also plan to add to the article when I get around to it. It's a Letter to the Editor composed entirely in Masri.

Thanks for desiring to improve the article. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 05:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

citations

• - citations are needed for coptic being the "main" player in the development of egyptian arabic, my own opinion is that its influence is no more than any of the other languages that influenced the egyptian dialect, and there's no evidence (unless you provide one) that suggests that some certain features of egyptian arabic are actually imported from coptic in particular, as they could be imported from any other language whose speakers lived in egypt (and became egyptians actually). and since egypt has been for years the center of the old world, many people from various nations came to live in egypt, with various languages like farsi, turkish, french, english, plus languages from middle asia ( those from kazakhistan and those places where MAMALEEK came from ) and those from berberic areas in north africa, plus all those others that I need a history book to remember, so what is needed is a solid evidence why coptic played a major rule in particular surpassing all those other players? I guess one can't tell unless he studies all of those languages that affected the egyptian dialect, and not only studying coptic (which inevitably had an influence) and finding some sort of likeliness, then claiming it was the major player, while in fact it could be as influensive as any other player.
• -that was point one, point two: since you guys agreed (as I see in the archive) that the SAEDI dialect is a language by itself, and that it's unintelligible for north egyptians, same goes for FALLAHINI and NOBIAN as I see, why then claim that egyptian arabic has 78 million native speakers (the number which I think comes from egyptian censuses) ? you could safely cut that number to half, correct me if I'm wrong, citation is needed for that also,

• -thanks for listening :)

84.36.8.26 04:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

--I can't comment on the first point, because I have no sources. What I know is that Egyptian loan words are more commonly from French, Italian, and Greek than they are from Coptic. But the article talks about grammatical features not loan words. The second point is slightly valid. Saiidi is distinct, Nobiin is not even an Arabic language, but Fellahini is simply a dialect. There is full intellegibility of all Deltoid dialects with very minor variations that are starting to fold and disappear under pressure from Cairene. Same applies to middle Egypt dialects. The population estimate can't be cut to half safely, Saiidis are 20% of the population, Nubians 2%, of the 20% Saiidis many are middle Egyptians and many are second or third generation Cairenes, so the population estimate thing is very complex. I agree with you that this point needs further research though, maybe you can do it :) --Karkaron 20:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Phonetic Transcription in Text Example

--The phonetic transcription of the arabic text in the Text Example is clearly not matched up with the arabic text. this should be fixed, but i don't speak arabic so i do not volunteer to fix it. --bjoleniacz 7 March 2007

Phonemic/phonetic transcription:

long vowel /a:/ should be consitantly used and not confused with [ɑː]. The latter is only an allophone of /a:/. Cf. سام /sa:m/ [sæ:m] and صام /ṣa:m/[ṣɑːm].

ج as [gīm]

quote: "Some therefore consider the sound in Egyptian Arabic to be a direct retention from ancient Egyptian or proto-Semitic, or it may be a secondary development from a palatal or palatalized /g/ ([ɟ] or [gʲ]), which is the Sa'idi pronunciation of the consonant south of Cairo in the Sa'id, or Upper Egypt."

Comment: It was simply intorduced when the first Arab tribes settled in Egypt; The Yemeni (gīm-speakers) tribes who came with عمرو بن العاص ‘Amr ibn al-‘Āṣ- settled in al-Gīzah and some other parts. Others, (jīm-speakers), settled in Ṣa‘īd. If we assume that ancient Egyptian was not Arabic (which is true), then how come that the ancient Egyptian phonology would have affected Egyptian Arabic, and only in the realization of a single phoneme? The proto-Semitic hypothesis is valid, but only through a proto-type of the Arabian Peninsular variety of Arabic that was introduced to Egypt during the Islamic conquest. This Semitic effect is seen in present-day Arabic in (at least) three dialects, namely, Aden-Taiz, (some varieties of) Omani and (some varieties of) Egyptian. The "velaric" realization of Jīm is also found in different dialects of Modern South Arabian, e.g. Mehri and Shehri (Jibbali) cf.غيج (man) which is realized dialectally as either [ʁeːɡ] or [ʁeːdʒ].(user: 9abdulla 22:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC))

Vocal phonology

"4 short vowels: /a/, /i/, /u/ and /ɑ/

6 long vowels: /aː/, /iː/, /uː/, /ɑː/, /eː/"

I don't think that /a/ and /ɑ/ or /a:/ and /ɑ:/ are distinct phonemes. There is virtually no minimal pair coming to my mind except: شعر [ʃɑʕr] hair versus [ʃaʕr] poet, but this may imo be explained with a distinct emphasized "r". It is true however that "ɑ" appears around normally non-emphatic consonandts such as [mɑ:mɑ] "mom" or [ʔɑb] "father" (without suffixes), I would call this "word emphasis". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.255.21 (talk) 16:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

The distribution of /a/ and /ɑ/ (which I guess also cover IPA [æ], [ə] and [ʌ] in the article?) can differ interdialectally, between sociolects and between women and men, but I can think of examples where they contrast. I don't think however the above is a minimal pair, since poet is actually [ʃæʕɪɾ], and orthographically hair and poet are written شعر and شاعر respectively. Some minimal pairs involving the flap include /ɾɑmi/ a proper name vs. /ɾæmi/ 'thrower (m.)', and /ɾɑsi/ 'my head' vs. /ɾæsi/ 'stable'—I don't see how [ɾ] is emphatic in some of these and not in others?

Also, while vowel distinction is often described in terms of length only, /ɑ/ and /ɑː/, I don't feel it's adequate. For example, /bʌtˤ/ and /bɑtˤ/ more precisely represent 'ducks' and 'armpit' respectively. Either way the distinction is phonemic — Zerida 06:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't actually speak to Egyptian, but similar contrasts in Tunisian Arabic are normally analysed as due to pharyngealisation on the consonant: /r/ and /rˤ/ are quite well established. What does the literature on Egyptian say? Drmaik 08:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Drmaik! Yes, the literature often explains this in terms of emphasis spread or pharyngealization due to the emphatic consonants. For an alternative explanation, see this paper which suggests that /ɑ/ is underlyingly emphatic in Egyptian (Cairene dialect) and thus emphasis is triggered in the vowel and spreads to consonants in the same syllable. Based on this, 'my head' /ɾɑsi/ from the examples above would be [ɾˤɑːˤsˤi] rather than [ɾˤɑːsi]. From this I think it's easier to see whether /ɑ/ and /a/ are contrastive. — Zerida 23:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment on mininmal pairs and other aspects of Egyptian Arabic phonology

I think the "poet" and "hair" example cited above should be changed to شاعرة /ʃaʕɾɑh/ "poetess; feeling (fem.adj.)" and شعرة /ʃɑʕɾɑh/ "single hair". Further examples that can attest the phonemic status of /a/ and /ɑ/ include أب /ʔɑbb/ "father" and قب /ʔabb/ (a verb from which قبقاب is derived). Regarding representing back vowels in notation, I don't think its approrpriate (or even in conformity with IPA) to use the superscript [ˤ] to represent back vowels (or degrees of "backness", known by some as "emphasis in vowels") such as [ɑ] in examples like [ɾˤɑːˤsˤi]. Such diacritics were meant to be only for consonants. But please also note that رأسي "my head" should be transcribed [ɾˤɑʔsi] while رقصي "my dancing" is [ɾˤɑʔsˤi] and راسي "stable; stationed at harbour" is [ɾaːsi]. (9abdulla 11:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC))

So, if it is true that emphasis is a charactaristic of a syllaby or a vowel and not of a consonant, then there has to be not just a emphatic variant of /a/ and /a:/ but of /i/, /u/ and so on, too? The "emphatic" consonants would rather be allophones than phonemes since emphasis is a characteristic of syllabies, don't they? The non-emphasis and emphasis of a syllaby is phonemic.

I'm not an expert in linguistic but what about "assimilation" like in وسط pronounced [wiˤsˤt] (emphasis assimilation) and in فلسطين pronounced [falastin] (non-emphasis assimilation) <-- unsure about this example? How are these explained by emphasis being a characteric of syllabies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.249.54 (talk) 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC).