Talk:El Salvador/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Opening comments

Given the inability of whomever wrote major parts of this article to get these basic facts right, I think that the whole thing needs to be scrapped and re-written.

Jkp1187 20:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)jkp1187

This right. Even to the CIA (if you know your CIA history, you'll know they are rotten to the core) D'Aubuisson was TOO extreme, as labeled by Ambassador Robert White a "pathological killer", they funneled millions into Napoleon Duarte's campaign against him, to make sure that D'Aubisson, a supporter/mantainer of death squads, and who was the mastermind behind Monsignor Romero's death (among 30000 more attributed to "rightwing" groups either sanctioned or belonging to the government). In short, D'Aubisson did not win, because he was considered too volatile.

I do know my "C.I.A. history" and the C.I.A. has normally been dominated by what Europeans call "social democrats" and Americans call "liberals" - i.e. people who believe in a mixed economy - welfare state.

They oppose Marxism (indeed they have a history of fighting against Marxists), but the do not support a free enterprise system either. So to say that someone is "too extreme" for them gives the totally false impression that C.I.A. people are somehow "extreme".

Paul Marks.

Biased

I found the article very biased.

For example it was implied that conservatives came to power in El Salvador because of death squads, whereas in fact the conservatives won the elections because the noncommunist left (which was in power, in the person of President Duarte, from 1979 onwards with heavy American support - all things that the article just ignored) totally messed up the economy.

The policy of increasing government spending, nationalization and land theft ("land reform") produced after 1979 a fall in output at least on a par with the American Great Depression.

The economic failure of the noncommunist leftist Christian Democrats (Christian Democrats are very different in the context of El Salvador than they are in, for example, the Federal Republic of Germany) government (again I repeat that it was a leftist, although noncommunist, government that the United States supported after 1979) and the economic success of ARENA are just totally ignored by the article.

As for the war, claims from the usual suspects (the United Nations and so on) that only 2% (or whatever it was)of "human rights abuses" were committed by the Communists are only to be expected. As the old saying goes "when they kill us it is social justice, when we kill them it is a human rights abuse".

Overall it seems that various people are still upset that the Communists both lost the war and lost every election.

Paul Marks.

Completely agree with Paul Marks. For starters this page needs a neutrality warning. For example, the percentages related to Human Rights violations that are presented lack sources since a look at the report presented by the UN Truth Commision does not contain aforementioned figures. People who "contribute" to this page need to get keep their PoV out of Wikipedia articles since this is not a site that is meant to endorse or tarnish political parties.

Okay, I put the tyag on. please edit to remove the POV, SqueakBox 22:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider the two of you completely biased and ignorant. Now you'll tell me that Pinochet was a harmless gentle man. I would recomend all our readers to read the book by Kevin J. Middlebrook: " Conservative parties, the right, and democracy in Latin America" to see who STOLE LAND FROM WHOM. As this book establishes, historically in Latin America a region that suffered under caudillismo in which the "ruling elite", people with cash coming from the old world, or people that already had benefitted from the caste society legacy of the Spanish colonial times, purchased military rulers to shape their "local policies" to satisfy their very whims. It is thru this kind of strategy that every Latin American nation to this day was governed, if it weren't for leftsts insurgents that led to popular revolts to overthrow dictators. Most notable example should be Somoza from Nicaragua. Point is, that in this book, and if you dvelve into Salvadoran history, the people, the groups that STOLE LAND were the ruling elites. The owners of the banana, coffee, cotton, indigo plantations all through Latin America. With assistance of the military and sanctioned, they propped up "irregular armies", called in El Salvador "Guardia Nacional", for two specific purposes: expropiate communal land from natives and poor peasants, this in order to annex them to "haciendas" owned by the caudillo's patrons. Secondly, to make sure that the displaced population served the purpose of cheap manual labor, which even today serves as the only economical plus several Latin American countries posses, like El Salvador where remesas hold the economy, and the promise of "sweat shop paradise" has been stripped away due to even cheaper labor comming from Nicaragua and China.

Point is this, the elites, foreigners or "criolles" purchased the caudillos, created National Guards to round up as many colonatos, peasants to work on the haciendas, on the most horrid of conditions, with minimal pay. Who stole lands? The elites did. Duarte only meant to redistrubute toe land to their original owners, and he was not the ONLY man to promote land reform. A well known 2statesmen" and also part of the oligarchy, Mr. Enrique Alvarez, one of the legendary "14 families" of El Salvador" that thru purchasing governments, slaughters shaped the country to their whim to shape it into an hacienda-state, proposed a land reform. He even conducted it on his land as a "test plataform", but the greedy elites decided not to listen. Later on, Enrique Alvarez would go forward to form with technocrats the FDR (Democratic Revolucionary Force) with the intention of through peaceful ways mitigating the subhuman condition the majority of the population lived in due to the failed "policies" of the dictators. Unfortunately, he was slaughtered along with six of his companions, and this are just some of the many unanswered murders in that country. Not only that, but Duarte didn't govern with complete and total control. He also governed in a time where a country's whole economy only depends in a single cash crop, when the world prices go down so does the whole economy. This has happened historically in El Salvador, where everything went from depending on cacaco, to indigo, to cotton, to coffee. Every single time the economy slumps. Not only this, but as previously said... he had not total control. He governed under a military junta, meaning that it was a coalition with military men that served only the elites, their usual patrons. Truth of the matter is that Duarte's presidency was that of a "lame duck president", because he had no power over the country nor to make sure his policies were strictly followed. His only fucntion, is that USA had as a "guarantee" for continuing aid to have Duarte of President, that either way, went to the hands of military men/rightists death squads, that as this article says and the UN TRUTH COMISSION states, the death of THOUSANDS of women, children, and men. Liberal accounts estimate 75, 000 deaths, more conservative ones estimate 30,000, all too gross. In fact, I believe that this article is too light, too dismissive of El Salvador's past, and present, that I'm considering asking some fellow friends, who live in El Salvador do to a mayor overhaul. To touch on issues as the massive corruption that includes here, how El Salvador still fails to uphold human rights (just now there are hospitals that HAVE NO MEDICINES to treat leukemia, there are "municipios" with hospitals on hold, there are multibillionaire thefts by the "ruling" elite, the most famous case being Mathies Hill of Insepro/Finsepro fame, and a recent one involving ex-Salvadoran President Francisco Flores involved in a millionaire theft of ANDA (manages the national aqueducts and water sources), he had an artificial lagoon built in his property using ANDA equipment and finance.

Bellow I post some places I invite folks to check on, because this article is far too lacking: http://luterano.blogspot.com http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/1100/112k11.htm (About Enrique Alvarez) http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/centralamerica.html

I would also recommend our investigative readers to search on "La Matanza", "Anastasio Aquino", "Farabundo Marti", "El Mozote", to gain information of how ancient and prevalecent is social strife in this petite country, all due to the inequity of the policies which continue to divide the rich and poor through an abyss, responsible for the migration and the 12 murders a day. Just a small info of Anastasio Aquni: He was a native american "caudillo" (very ironic) that in 1832 took to arms against criolle exploitation of the indiginous people. Farabundo Marti lead another revolt in 1932, and again ended with the death of 30 thousands of peasants and natives. Now to this day, the government ruled by ARENA, the same elite that purchased the caudillos in the past, adopted the "neoliberal system" to displace the government which now being "democratic" and not the totalitarism they fostered, doesn't 100% guarantee that they'll retain power, so they want to remove the state as much as possible as to not have it interfere with their policies, their monopolies. I would say that Paul is just too blinded by"Macarthunism" to understand the corruption, the burocracy, the darkness of Latin America history to provide a respected analysis.

I also want to clarify something, paul in his ignorance tries to smear all leftists all insurgents as "communists" as if that made them 1000% right thing to slaughter. Truth of the matter is, that theoligians, statesman, clergy, students, syndicalists, teachers, peasants, and even reformists generals were among those who were targeted by the pernicious, death-squad sponsor oligarchy.

Paul Marks from now on.

There is a long comment above claiming (for example) that I think that Pinochet was kind and gentle. And calling me various things (ignorant and so on).

There are so many subjects raised in the comment that it is not practical to reply to them all.

For example China is mentioned - without pointing out that the Marxist ruler Mao was the greatest mass murderer of human history (murdering even more people than his fellow Marxist Stalin - and vastly more that the National Socialist Adolf Hitler).

On land theft, if one traces land ownership back one can find theft in most countries (a possible exception is Iceland - where some farmers can trace their line back to the first people to settle the land).

However, that someone's great grandfather stole land (say from the Dakota - who in term stole it from some other tribe) does not give anyone else the right to rob the man now. "This is not yours because some of your forefathers where Spanish who only came to this land a few hundred years ago" is not a good argument.

However, the person has not disputed my basic point - i.e. that the "land reform" of Duarte in conjunction with his nationalizations and increase in government spending undermined the economy - THUS GREATLY INCREASING POVERTY.

It is odd that someone who claims to care about the poor should not care about the RESULTS of policies. To judge a policy simply by intentions (rather than results) and to even claim that such policies did not go far enough is rather odd (to say the least).

As for wages being forced down over time. I would refer the person to the statistics for any country since the industrial revolution - wages (contrary to the sub Marxism he was, no doubt, taught in college) have gone UP not DOWN.

On killing communists (really killing Marxists as one can believe in egalitarianism "communism" without being a Marxist, for example monks and nuns practice a form of egalitarianism, although some nuns in Central America did reject their traditional practices, adopted Marxism and tried to help in violently imposing it on other people - things did not go well for these nuns [really ex nuns as they had rejected their traditions]). Well if you start a war you can not complain about getting killed. As for the deaths of women - surely it is sexist to only kill male enemies. A more important point is whether enemies are armed or unarmed at the time of death. Although under the Geneva Convention an enemy who is unarmed may be killed as a spy (if this enemy is not in military uniform) I would consider it unethical to kill enemies who are captured unarmed, even if they are not in uniform. Although, of course, such things often happen in war (for example American soldiers sometimes killed German prisoners even though these enemies had been captured in uniform - and used torture to gain information). Still the fact that many (if not all) military and paramilitary forces have raped and killed in history does NOT make it right.

As for talk about "children and babies" - are we really going to extend this debate to abortion? As for the age of an enemy - it does not really matter if he is shooting at you.

On the "corruption" point. What noncorrupt governments are we talking about? There is plenty of corruption in (for example) Cuba and Venezuela, and (to be fair) the United States.

Basically the old mistakes are just repeated in the comment. For example if Marxists start a war it is a terrible thing to kill them (if you do not want to be killed do not start a war). And that increasing statism somehow reduces poverty (rather than increasing it over what it otherwise would have been).

Paul Marks.

I cannot believe what you write here..... it is sad but I guess that's just how the world is. I hope you can someday learn to see things differently. --Nabo0o (talk) 02:35, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Translate, please

This paragraph...

"The dollar also remarked a fallings tendency in the interest rates in El Salvador, helping many to become subjects of credit in order to buy a house or a car, and the sense of displease disappeared in time and is now only a political tool that is used by the political opposition when election are on sight."to let you know more you may be able to find other informartion on that yahoo account of elsalvadorboyzenfomstionne and we will be able to give you more detailed information thank you

...has some English grammar/vocabulary mistakes. I was trying to just fix it, but there are just enough mistakes that I'm not quite sure what it is trying to say. What is it trying to say?

-tried to fix it, hope I helped -jessica

lol. I was born in El Salvador and have no idea what it means. It's extremely confusing :) Guanaco152003 03:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am an English speaker and I do not fully understand the paragraph. So a native Spanish speaker surely has no chance at all.

My guess (and it can be no more than a guess) is that the paragraph is dealing with the adoption of the United States Dollar as currency in El Salvador.

Clearly the expansion of the money supply in the United States would have the effect of creating a credit bubble not just in the United States but also in other countries (such as El Salavador) that also used the Dollar. And, yes, this would lead to problems.

However, most countries in Latin America that do not use the United States Dollar expand their own money supply even more than the United States does - so their credit bubbles are even worse.

Money supply inflation (not quite the same thing as "prices in the shops going up") and the boom-bust cycle it leads to, is one of the great curses of the world (particularly of Latin America - it is a great historical problem in most Latin American nations).

WARNING the above depends on an "Austrian School" understanding of economics, and may not be accepted by mainstream economists.

Paul Marks.

Football War

I merged the Football War entry into the paragraph. Please read the edit comment and article before shouting vandalism. -Mcfly 02:51, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) Sorry Mcfly, I was overreacting because the article had been vandalised minutes earlier. Your change is fine.--Squiquifox 03:31, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think we should add a link to a culture page. - tito

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Location map

The map image:LocationElSalvador.png can be added to the new El Salvador page when it is created in the format set out by WikiProject Countries. It is mentioned here so that whoever eventually makes the new page knows that the map already exists. - Vardion 09:44, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

US strategy in El Salvador

I found that this 12 years civil war was completely missed on the main article. [1] Read like a very sad history. For example, "There followed a bloody 12-year stalemate between the US-funded and organised Salvadoran army, and Cuban-backed guerrillas." and "Tens of thousands of those killed in the war were rebel sympathisers, tortured and murdered by the security forces. It was a well-organised, dirty war in which the CIA was heavily involved. I also found that this guy names Sever is like DA SUPA CHILLA of dem all...little gonden snub nosed maunkey!"

Country map

A controversy has erupted over the choice of map for this article. The two candidates are shown here, along with any others that other Wikipedians may choose to enter. Feel free to make any comments. The lower map may also appear in the corresponding Geography article for this country. Kelisi 16:48, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I support the lower Kelisi map, --SqueakBox 16:51, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

I support the first, upper, map. I remember the lower one looking horrible when shrunk down to fit in the article page. --Da 'Sco Mon 21:17, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Map of El Salvador

File:Salvadormap.gif

Map of El Salvador

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The file File:Salvadormap.gif has an uncertain copyright status and may be deleted. You can comment on its removal.

Map of El Salvador

Maya Lenca Culture

I just did some minor copy editing and formatting to this material. The same contributor left a related paragraph on the Pipil article, which was expanded fairly recently using mostly information from an El Salvador university web site. I believe the Maya Lenca would make a good separate article, as we did with Pipil. I would appreciate a review of the Pipil article (to see if the Spanish source was translated correctly) and any comments. WBardwin 08:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Romero?

Shouldn't there at least be a blurb in here about Oscar Romero? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robgea (talk • contribs) 21 May 2005

Update: There is now, as all can see, a full article about Romero. Lawikitejana 03:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet allegations

While User:64.7.89.54 may well be Trey (I won't undo the redirect from the anon to Trey's user page instigated by 172), is there any evidence that he is blocked? SqueakBox 23:44, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

the dudes have not explained their position. i was under the impression that most killings were committed by the military, not the death squads. J. Parker Stone 01:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I consider Mister Trey Stone refering to myself as a rv warraior to be a form of personal attack. In answer to his comment:

Members of the army, the Treasury Police, the National Guard, and the National Police formed "squads" to do away with enemies. Private and semi-official groups also set up their own squads or linked up with existing structures within the armed forces. It should be said that, while it is possible to differentiate the armed forces death squads from the civilian death squads, the borderline between the two was often blurred. For instance, even the quads that were not organized as part of any State structure were often supported or tolerated by State institutions. Frequently, death squads operated in coordination with the armed forces and acted as a support structure for their activities. The clandestine nature of these activities made it possible to conceal the State's responsibility for them and created an atmosphere of complete impunity for the murderers who worked in the squads. t should be said that, while it is possible to differentiate the armed forces death squads from the civilian death squads, the borderline between the two was often blurred. For instance, even the quads that were not organized as part of any State structure were often supported or tolerated by State institutions. Frequently, death squads operated in coordination with the armed forces and acted as a support structure for their activities. The clandestine nature of these activities made it possible to conceal the State's responsibility for them and created an atmosphere of complete impunity for the murderers who worked in the squads. UN Truth Commission on Salvadoran Death Squads El_C 08:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

if it makes you feel better, i've changed it. as for your retort, i do not see how this disproves that the military was directly responsible for most deaths, rather than affiliated death squads (which, while gaining notoriety for killing Romero and later the nuns, I don't believe killed near as many people) J. Parker Stone 08:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am not wrong, it was a form of perosnal attack, and stating: you're entitled to be wrong I suppose. if it makes you feel better certainly strikes me as similarly inflammatory. Finally, all that innuendo aside, your belief needs to be subtantiated with reputable, scholarly sources in order to adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV, Citing sources, and No Original Research. El_C 08:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

as does yours. the Truth Commission merely elaborates on how the death squads operated; it does not say that most deaths came from the death squads. J. Parker Stone 09:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That operation reveals much on that front. But I recall that 172 has already addressed it, we'll see what he and his sources has to say. El_C 09:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board

I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. Guettarda 1 July 2005 04:00 (UTC)

Don't leave El Salvador any time soon

As it turns out, to leave the country you have to apply at the U.S. Embassy. glocks out 00:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What? To who are you referring? SqueakBox 00:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

National Anthem

The title of the national anthem on this page and on the page linking the title should be changed from "Saludemos la patria orgullosos" because that is not the title of the anthem. The title is simply "Himno Nacional" or simply National Anthem.--Jorobeq 10:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to its official name: "Himno Nacional de El Salvador"

Adoption of Dollar

I dont know if this should be mentioned, but ive heard from many salvadorans that the adaptation of the dollar has negatively affected them. Many have told me that businesses and merchants price in dollars and most often give change in Colones. In another case, many businesses still pay in colones, and the value of their pay is significantly lower than what would be payed in dollars. I have no source on this because it is all first hand accounts of my salvadoran family members and their friends.--Jorobeq 18:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This is not entirely true. The change to dollars first was not welcome by many. As time has passed, the dollars are the only currency now. It is rare to see any place with prices in colones, or that a business pays in colones. Colones are basically out of circulation. The only negative part about this, is that some things that previously cost below $1 (8.75 colones) now cost more. For example, you would pay about 1 colon ($0.11) for a public phone call, and now you would have to put a quarter (almost 3 colones). That is the kind of negative impact of the change from colones to dollars.

Black Salvadorans

"El Salvador is the only Central American country that has no black population." What...really? Can this for corroborated? Alex Dodge 23:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC) For clarification, I am asking for proof both that it has no black population and that it is the only such country in Central America.Alex Dodge 00:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

"El Salvador is the only country in Central America that does not have a Garifuna, Miskito or Afro-Antillean population. The other six republics have at least one, or all of these groups living within their borders. El Salvador’s connection with Africa goes back to a much earlier time, to the era of Spanish colonial rule. The latter migrations of African descended peoples settling in the other republics did not include El Salvador, and as a result Salvadorans will tell you that their country is the only one in Central America that does not have a “black population”. This is not all together correct. For over four and a half centuries the population of El Salvador has mixed its blood lines so completely into one multi-racial society that the remote African origins of some of its citizens are unknown even to those that have such a background. "[2] Can an expert please address this and possibly add to the article? Alex Dodge 07:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Whoever posted the answer above and below (from the El Salvadoran), they do not know El Salvadoran history. There is presence of Blacks in El Salvador. Maybe not as much as the others, but they are there. In it's history, there was 2 shipments of blacks from Africa to El Salvador to work on the plantations.

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I'm Salvadoran, and I can tell you that there isn't a black community of any ancestry in El Salvador. Since Colonial times politics in El Salvador were such that blacks were not considered human (according to something I read on the original constitution), and were freed but vanished from salvadoran territory as a condition. ASIAN POPULATION? This is a new phenom in El Salvador, since the late 80's there has been an influx of mostly Chinese immigrants, I believe most stay after finding it dificult to migrate north to the US after crossing the Pacific Ocean in ships and running out of money. In the past few years, I've read in El Salvador's largest newspaper, that a couple of times a year El Salvador's immigration comes across a few dozen Chinese trying to cross the border inward with false documents.

There's a healthy Arab community too, in fact, the President of El Salvador (Antonio Saca) is of Lebanese ancestry.

El Salvador is becoming the most industrialized country in Central America, I traveled to El Salvador last year in March and in November 2005, and the new "freeway" type roads and public projects make it seem like a whole different country than the one I saw in the late 90's.

Another thing, El Salvador fast becoming a "consumer country", the remitances that flood the country are spent in tremendous Malls that actualy rival those here, like the Beverly Center. I could not believe how many Mall there are, and how big and luxurious they are built. So the government has to import Nicaraguan and Honduran labor workers to harvest the coffee and sugar cane crops because "no salvadoran wants to do hard labor" anymore. No one is saving their money nor investing it, or buying real estate.

I don't know how to add pictures to articles, but, could we please add more! Specially of the famous ladmarks as they are....

THE NATIONAL PALACE (Palacio Nacional) THE NATIONAL CATHEDRAL (Catedral Metropolitana) THE NATIONAL THEATER (Teatro Nacional) "TAZUMAL" Largest Mayan Pyramid in the country IZALCO VOLCANO, (it's image is the Folgers Coffe volcano) El Salvador is also known as the "Land of Volcanoes".

Plenty of pictures can be seen in www.4elsalvador.com

Dennis Sosa kenikex@aol.com

Name

Can someone confirm (or not) that the country's official and correct name is Republica de El Salvador en la America Central? Adam 03:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

No, of course it's not. José San Martin 00:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Then why does its coat of arms (and various other official-looking crests I have seen), call it that? File:El Salvador coa.png Adam 00:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

This refers to the fact that El Salvador is in Central America. The name is only "Republica de El Salvador". --Cirilobeto 04:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

República de El Salvador en la América Central means Republic of El Salvador in Central America, and the constitution reconize the official name as República de El Salvador (Republic of El Salvador).--Wynn (talk) 02:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Black Salvadorans (continued)

El Salvador is known as not having a black community because there truly isn't a black populace in El Salvador, indigenous or otherwise. I visited El Salvador for two months in summer of 2005. The only black person I saw was at a Costco style market. He was a member of a U.S. athletic team (he and his teammates were wearing their U.S. national team gear). The reason there aren't any blacks in El Salvador is two fold. Before 1930 there weren't any blacks due to the fact that slave trade was conducted on the atlantic coast. Those slaves never made it inland all the way to El Salvador which is on the Pacific coast. However, General Maximilio Hernandez Ramirez, is more responsible for no blacks in El Salvador. When he came to power in 1930 he instituted laws that kept blacks out of El Salvador. If you ask Salvadorans why there aren't any blacks in El Salvador, they'll cite General Hernandez more than Atlantic slave routes. He was also the person responsible for killing thousands of indigenous Salvadorans rebelling against the govt in the 1930's. Due to this, El Salvador today has probably the most homogenous citizenry in the Americas. 90% of Salvadorans are mestizo. There aren't blacks, few indigenous people (1%) and some Europeans (9%).

I note the article makes no mention of Universities and other higher education. C. C. Perez 19:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This article skewed some historical facts. It left out a critical step in the history of El Salvador as part of the United Provinces of Central America: Before the United Provinces of Central America were themselves independent, they were part of Mexico, from which the United Provinces of Central America declared their independence. --robert

--Pfontg 02:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC) This issue with blacks is squarely wrong. When slavery was abolished in El Salvador, most of the slaves were black if not all. You may even see paintings of the event, and the colors too. I believe, government policy was drawn back then to deter people of black, as well as oriental, origins to become Salvadorean citizens under the impression that they were prone to become slaves. Like all history in El Salvador, facts are scarce, and this is very difficult to substantiate. However, I can refer to my own family history: I was born Salvadorean, and so were my parents. My paternal granfather though, emigrated from China around 1916 when he was just 16 (I still have his birth certificate in Chinese). Later on, he was subject to an identity judicial proceeding to prove that he had in fact been born in El Salvador. Of course, he produced a fake Salvadorean birth certificate to prove it. If the initial policy after abolishing slavery was more of a deterring measure, it could be that General Hernandez strengthened this into law. However, rules in El Salvador mean pretty much nothing, and racial features are sometimes to obvious to dismiss. If you don't see blacks in El Salvador, it is because you are too used to see them in your own country, and that is the impression you have. Race is a rather bizarre term in El Salvador, most would only refer to "indio" and "white", but in fact the melting took place so long ago and to such an extent that you would need to run DNA tests to figure it out. As for the present, I am personally aware of several cases of mixed Salvadorean blacks, not counting the thousands of oriental (mostly Chinese) cases. So, I would simply delete the note regarding blacks, and if you really need to put something about it, please just say that black population is negligible, but not that there aren't any blacks in El Salvador. That is simply not true."--Pfontg 02:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

--Wynn (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)There is no black community in El Salvador, there are some that are almost black skin, but they are not of black ancestry instead are of mixed ancestry (Indian-European). By history is known that a president banned black settlements in the country.--Wynn (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I know someone from El Salvador

I'm 13 years old, and I have a nanny who was born in San Rafael, Chalatenango, El Salvador. She's been with my family since my older brother was a few months old. User:Mewtwowimmer 8:28, 31 August 2006 (PCT)

So? What's your point?

Hey, don't bite the newcomers. Better to leave a note reminding what article talk pages are for — presumably posting a copy on the person's Talk page as well — and leaving a welcome message for the person so that s/he learns to make actual contributions to Wikipedia. If you try that, you may discover (as I did) that this user actually had made a lot of decent contributions by then, and simply wrote something well-intentioned but inappropriate on this page. Now, back to the article ... Lawikitejana 04:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

The vandalism on this page is horrible. I can see from the last revert that i miss some of the mistakes. I tried putting the article up for protection but got rejected. Jorobeq 05:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Water

El Salvador is 100% water? Jun-Dai 22:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed, SqueakBox 18:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Charity

A list of charity sites is unjustifiable, better to have a link of local businesses who at least actively do good but as that isnt acceptable nor is spamming in charity sites in the external links, SqueakBox 17:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Asian Population

I'm from el salvador, and i've seen plenty of asian (mostly chinese) living in el salvador. the Demographics section should mention something of a small asian population in el salvador. Unknown User 15:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Cathlic percentage?

The country's people are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic (96% of the population). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I dont know why this is here, I have read many articles stating that, at the least, el salvador's Evangelical population has reached over 1 million, or around 15-18 percent of the total population. yes el salvador's majority is catholic, but not an overwhelming one

CATHOLISISM??? EVANGELICALS???--------------------------------------------------- Yes it is true that catholics are the majority in El Salvador. But there should be mention of the influnces and growing numbers of Protestant/Evangelical denominations.

There's no mention of the Evangelical Church, "Mision Cristiana Elim", which is the second largest congregational church in the world, second only to the church in Korea. The church has over 100,000 members plus. Jointly with other Evangelical congregations, they do probably surpass 1 million.

EL SALVADOR UNDER THE MEXICAN EMPIRE

• • • • • And this is important, the reason why Salvadorans prefer to omit the fact that after gaining Independence from Spain and before forming the United Provences of Central America, Central America was part of the Mexican Empire under Iturbide for just about the period of one year. We Salvadorans historically don't recognize that union because we were forced to it. Conservative factions in the Capital Guatemala City practically sold us all to the Mexican Empire, even though the State of El Salvador protested, and even took up arms to fight it.

A little known fact is that during that period, the State of El Salvador opposed the union to the Mexican Empire so much, that Jose Matias Delgado sent a letter to the President of United States asking him to allow El Salvador to join the United States as a territory or commonwelth, or even a State. This is a documented fact. El Salvador fought with arms, unsuccesfully, the union of Central America to the Mexican Empire. Guatemala sent troops to San Salvador to subdue the uprising, and so did Mexico.

That is why til today, there is a city called "Mejicanos" in the northern section of San Salvador, because that is where the Mexican troops camped out to plan out the seige of San Salvador. The State of El Salvador was subdued, and was forced to join the rest under the Mexican Empire. One year later that Empired collapsed. Out of the 5 States (Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Ncaragua and Costa Rica) El Salvador was the only one that opposed that union. Notice how around that period Guatemala inverted its flag from the traditional Central American Federal flag horizontal "blue, white, blue", to vertical bands of "blue, white, blue" to mimic the Mexican flag.

El Salvador's constitution still calls for the re-unification of the Federal Union, and it's national coat of arms plainly recognizes that Union with 5 volcanos and five Federal Flags. (so does Nicaraguas)

• • • • • The HISTORY secion should be divided into (sugestion) "Ancient History", "Pre-Columbian History", "Colonial Period", and "Modern History". It makes it more organized instead of throwing it all out there in one whole long paragraph.

Dennis Sosa-Jule

This is true, I have read some history books that said this. And I think that this is a very important fact, that may be appear in the History paragraph of the article.--Wynn (talk) 02:21, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

References

Where did you get all these facts? do you have a point of reference we can look at it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alfiboy (talk • contribs) 19:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC). My bad alfiboy 19:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________

Alfiboy, I read, and read, and read. Every time I visit El Salvador I go to the universities, the National Library, and I kidnap my cousin's histroy books.

There are so many facts that secular folk miss. Did you also know that El Salvador was the ONLY nation to actively do something to save a few thousand Jews from death during the Holocaust? There's a book..."the man who stopped the trains". During WWII, thousands of Hungarian Jews were saved...

"This book reveals the previously unknown story of the greatest single rescue effort during the Holocaust -- the rescue of more than 140,000 Jews of Budapest. This rescue was led by George Mantello, a Jewish diplomat in the Salvadorian Consulate in Geneva, Switzerland. Mantello, who had provided thousands of Jews with valuable protective Salvadoran citizenship papers, initiated and orchestrated an extraordinary Swiss press and church campaign that finally revealed to the world the horrors of Auschwitz and the Hungarian deportations. These public expressions evoked warnings by Roosevelt, Churchill, the Pope, and the King of Sweden, who then dispatched Raoul Wallenberg. Under worldwide pressure, the Regent of Hungary halted deportations on July 7, 1944. The neutral diplomats in Budapest finally fought to save embattled Jews from Eichmann's ceaseless efforts to complete the Final Solution."

The government of El Salvador authorized the immediate citizenship of thousands of Jews so that they may be spared. While other countries turned them away by the boat loads.

Dennis S.J>

Crime

el salvadors crime info posted on here is all false i live here and i have family members that work for the government and they do have read this page and are outraged with the article and as soon as they get time to will let it be known that the crime section of this article is false! honduras and guatemala are alot more dangerous and have had more deaths this year than el salvador

The new portal of El Salvador

Dearest editors to the Wikipedian El Salvador article,

The official Salvadoran portal is here! Please feel free to edit it. It could use some help from other editors, as I am the only person who maintains it (so far). Thank you so much! BashmentBoy 14:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)BashmentBoy

Black Salvadorans (continued...)

I'm from El Salvador and I assure you that stating "El Salvador has no blacks in it" isn't terribly inaccurate. I realize some of you may take offense to this since you are American and try and be as race sensitive as possible but its simply a fact that we have no blacks. I personally didn't know what race was until I came to the US, but when I asked my parents why there were no blacks in El Salvador they told me that the government didn't allow them into the country and if they did come in they would be shot (not too far from the actual truth). Its not racist, we're simply the only country in the New World without a black population, I don't get why this is such a shock to some of you. We have had noticeable Chinese immigration though.

OK people. There are no black Salvadorans

I totally agree with the previous comment. There's no black population in El Salvador. I had lived in El Salvador all my life until 3 years ago when I moved to Toronto, Canada, which is one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. I was quite happy to make Black, Asian, South Asian and Arab friends since population in El Salvador is very homogeneous. 90% European-Amerindian, 1% Amerindian and 9% White are good approximate figures. It's true that there has been an influx of people from China, Korea and the Middle East, but these numbers are negligible.

Someone said before that 50% of Salvadorans could trace their ancestry to Africa. I made some reaserch and that's true for people from "Salvador, Brazil". These people are called Salvadorans, just as people from New York are called New Yorkers, but they are Brazilians just as New Yorkers are Americans.

The following is just a personal opinion, therefore I have nothing to back it up. This is what I have seen after living in El Salvador all of my life. The absence of black ancestry can be observed in the Salvadoran culture which is rather submissive and less energetic when compared to countries that have a large Black population like Cuba, Brazil and the Dominican Republic. I remember seeing some 80 year old ladies dancing in the street when I went to Cuba a couple of years ago and I thought: "Wow, There's no way old people in El Salvador would ever do that".

El Salvador's culture is by far more similar to Chile's and Eduador's culture than to the Caribbean's culture. Why? Again, there's no black people in El Salvador and there's just a small Black population in these other countries. Food is like the 90% of El Salvador's population: mixed. There are a lot of dishes with European ingredients (like cheese) and Amerindian ingredients (corn). The African element is missing here as well. There's no African-Salvadoran dish.

Some people said above that in 400 years before a law against black people was implemented, there were black people in El Salvador who ended up mixing with the rest of the population. I took high school in El Salvador and I don't remember ever reading about African slaves in El Salvador in my history class. It would be great if people who said that could provide a website or any tipe of reference that can back that up.

I remember reading a study that said that thousands of British people had some sort of African ancestry, but they look "white" so no one could ever tell they have black ancestry unless they took a DNA test. These people aren't considered black, because their features are white. No Salvadorans look black, so they shouldn't be considered black. U.S. laws are weird about that. If you have one drop of "coloured" blood, you're considered to be non-white even if you look white. I personally believe the U.S. racial classification system is extremely subjective. People and countries all over the world have totally different and valid interpretations about race and racial classification.

Blacks in El Salvador

Many of the posts on this subject go to great lengths to dispell that there are no Blacks in El Salvador. There probably are no visible signs of people considered "Black," but does that mean there is no connection to Africa whatsoever in Salvadorenos? Does this lineage only subscribe to Amerindian and European mixtures soley because there is no Caribbean coastlines? What prevented free blacks from entering El Salvador prior to 1930? I posit that in some areas of El Salvador that there was a blurring of lines between Amerindians and Africans. Probably not in grand numbers, but to some extent. No there may not be any visible signs of "Blackness" in El Sal, but there had to have been some intermixture of African blood and Amerindian blood.

As an encyclopedia we only deal with information that is sourced from experts so source this and we can put it in the article. Of course there will be some black people in El Salvador but if there are only a tiny number it wouldnt be notable enough to mention, SqueakBox 15:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I found this website (sort of third-party source) while browsing for something related to Miskitos, maybe it could be of help regarding the black population/heritage of el salvador. African Heritage of Central America-- El salvador

• LaNicoya 09:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to add, corn was domesticated in Mexico (Aztec or Maya), not "America" (meaning US) as implied by a post above about food ingredients. Brusegadi 06:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Central America at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Central America whose scope would include El Salvador. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Blacks in ES continued

Another Salvadoran here, and i can say that the first time i saw a black person was on a trip to Belize and of course later on when i arrived in the United States. I believe that El Salvador never had African slaves because its not on The atlantic and i am aware that General Hernandez prohibited Africans to enter the country after 1930 for some period of time. But i do believe that at some time after or during slavery and before 1930 a small number of Africans may have entered the country and mixed in with the native populations but we simply classified their descendants as native origin even though i have noticed darker skin tones and wider facial features in some so called "indios" while others have a more Asian descendant look. --Javierbaires1 05:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)Javierbaires1

Africans were already in Central America before both Cristobal or a slave trade arrived. Did you not have to read his letters and journals in school?? According to Cristobal's journals he encountered Africans when he traveled through Panama and wanted to know how they got there. Apparently, they had been trading with nativos for decades. Mirimba are from Africa, also the design for the "nativo" drum is the exact same as those of West Africa. Most of the negrito population is mixed into the Salvadorans like the nativo population which has disappeared. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bosquesillo (talk • contribs) 08:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion for Pupusas to be added to article

I suggest that a section of this article also speak about or nations food specifically Pupusas being that most non-Salvadorans love to eat them.

crime #2

many things written on the crime section of the article are completely false or more accurately not up to date countries do get better you know... i would suggest you do research on this year and im over 150% youll come to find that el salvador is the 3rd violent country in central america, honduras holds the 1st place and guatemala takes 2nd place

• Until some sources arrive for the Crime section, I feel it should just be removed entirely since it sounds awkward right now. JuJube 05:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I will be in El Salvador (San Salvador area and La Paz [Coast and Zacatecoluca] and possibly other areas) Feb 17-25 during my dad's hometowns patron saint ceremony (saint aloysius gonzaga). Anyone have suggestions for possible pictures i can take or places so i can be on the lookout? Jorobeq 08:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There are several here: Srice13 02:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Tourism Section

The tourism section is horrible Jorobeq 00:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but you should give that poor editor a break. They were "told to add some references", probably by a boss with little understanding or concern for wiki principles. This person could lose their job if their not allowed to put something up. Is there anyway we can make it more encyclopedic, and less like a department of tourism brochure? (At least a portion of the pasted text may have come from here: [3] Srice13 02:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. As annoying as the repeated posting of POV material is, this editor is really trying to contribute, and he did try to listen to us by putting some references into the last version, weak though they were. I posted on his talk page a couple of days ago to try to encourage him to work on the piece a bit more. I'm not too far removed from being a newbie myself, and I think it would be a shame to discourage a clearly inexperienced but well-meaning contributor. We wiki-know-it-alls tend to be a bit imperious in our attitudes toward obvious newbie mistakes. Feeeshboy 06:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's violating WP:BITE to ask that contributions be written with some semblance of readability. JuJube 05:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

help with Tourism section

can someone please help and contribute to the tourism section? i want to add one to this article, here are some articles about tourism any suggestions and comments: http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/breaking_story.asp?j=13442764&p=y344z8yx&n=13442852&x=

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/47/ElSalvador_Living.htmlMatteo747

I'm sorry to say that you're not really giving us much to work with here. First of all, you need to stick to facts, not opinions, which continue to be the majority of the content you're adding. A fact can be something like "El Salvador has 500 beaches," or even "El Salvador is well known for its beaches," but you've got to back that up with a reliable source. The commentary you're adding is almost pure opinion, with a few factual details that don't stand up on their own enough to be worth keeping. Secondly, you need to find reliable sources instead of opinionated mentions in local newspapers of little repute. I strongly suggest that you create a sandbox page of your own to work on the section. List out some facts about tourism in El Salvador, particularly anything you can back up with hard data. The info from the article about former guerrillas giving tours is a good start. Remove anything about the spirit of the people or how the country has put the war behind it (just because a judgement like that is echoed by a newspaper article that does not mean it's a fact). Try to work what you've got into one coherent paragraph. Cut down to the one or two pictures that are really specifically about tourism in El Salvador (not just pretty sunsets, which can be viewed from many places in the world). Then post back here about it and we'll see how it looks. Please take the advice that other editors are giving you: we're not trying to be unfair to El Salvador; rather, we're trying to help you to help us make this page better. Feeeshboy 06:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

i posted about "el salvador turns civil-war into tourism draw" i hope what i posted is ok im looking at the pictures i have taken of the country myself and i hope that they are okMatteo747

"matteo747" if you read this i want to let you know that you can most likely improve your El Salvador tourism section, i am currently working on putting some truth on the Nicaragua article and i have discovered that you can use their tourism section as a way to make yours work so find a good tourism promoting site fro el salavador write down some of those facts and post the site and voila! you got yourself a better tourism section because thought it looks alright it can be better and if they dont let you use that tourism site as a source its unfair and descriminating because they allowed it for the nicaragua one so good luck and use the nicaragua section as an example on what sources to use for yours.Bacanaleranica

Population?

The number 6.9 seems to be inaccurate by now. El Salvador has a high birth rate so it seems that has surpassed the 7,000,000 mark a while ago. Manic Hispanic 07:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion before changes are made

I was looking at the article and i've noticed nobody has worked on this article yet. What are my limits to what sections i can add? I have found many things such as Carnavals that are celebrated in El Salvador many tourism websites like these:

http://www.elsalvador.org/home.nsf/0/f4ae1ab477e74efb85256b090059b79b?OpenDocument

http://www.elsalvadorturismo.gob.sv/

http://www.puntamango.com/tours_eco.asp

http://www.wavehunters.com/elsalvador/elsal_surf.asp

These are some very helpful sources, the Tourism section that it currently has is not as good as it can be. I was browsing through the rest of the Central American countries and Nicaragua and El Salvador are the only 2 countries that have a Tourism section, I don't have many examples on how to do this but i will try to use the Nicaragua article as an example of what i can use. I was also reading on the CIA World Fact Book about El Salvador economy being the third largest i think that will something to add on to the economy section:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/es.html

Music was another section that needs things added to it like Aniceto Molina a colombian cumbia singer is very famous for his music in El Salvador, Many of his songs are about the country. He is know for saying things like when i write i think about El Salvador so i think he is very important.

http://www.elsalvador.com/especiales/sanmiguel/historiacarnaval/nota14.html

This is all i have so far, This is what i will work with and i will carefully read all the Tourism articles i provided and choose a paragraph that best describes the country and add on to the section.

Also i have pictures but i don't know the copyright information if i upload a couple will the copyright be a problem? Guacamaya 09:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, don't say that no one has put any work into this page yet, even no one from WP:CA. Secondly, all of your ideas for improving the culture, tourism, and economy sections sound great. How much can you add? If you take a look at main nation articles that have reached GA or better, you'll see that many of them have about three decent-sized paragraphs per subsection, so that each section (or each subsection for long parts like History) takes up about one screen length or a bit more (see Germany (FA)), although this is by no means a rule. Note that the Irish (GA) have filled up twice that much space with their sports section! Anyway, please be bold, and don't worry about getting it perfect on the first try. I and plenty of other editors will be on hand for copy-editing. There is theoretically no limit to what you can add.

If you have pictures that you yourself shot, you can upload them and verify your authorship and that you release them into public domain. I don't know too much about that process, but consult WP:Images. Also, make sure your pictures fit with the text, are distinctively Salvadorian, and are not just pretty sunsets, etc. I look forward to seeing your additions! Feeeshboy 15:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If you'll look in Wikipedia Commons, I uploaded some El Salvador pictures several months ago. I have hundreds, but many are family and don't fit in around here. :) Naturally, mine aren't the only pictures, either. Lawikitejana 04:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Crime section (3)

This crime section, or one very similar to it, has been deleted in the past because it is alarmist, contentious, and insufficiently sourced. Although the new version has a couple of sources, it contains a LOT of unsourced material, including some very strident claims. However, I don't think it's acceptable to just give up on a crime section, as crime is a major issue in El Salvador. Rather, I'd like to work to turn this into encyclopedia-worthy content. Any help with editing or sourcing would be appreciated. Feeeshboy 06:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so that got deleted too. That's fine. I agree that it was overreaching. Also, a lot of the text was copied word for word from the US Dept. of State travel advisories. I'm sandboxing a new version, which I'll try out soon. Feeeshboy 14:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Feeeshboy i think that if one country in Central America is going to have a Crime Section, all Central American countries should have one. Crime is an issue all over these countries; El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica. Guatemala is alot more dangerous than El Salvador according to the news on t.v and newspapers, Many murders have taken place this past month and cops have been involved in them. El Salvador's problem is gangs wich is under control right now, It was alot more serious a couple months back but now you can get arrested for having gang related tattoos. I have family there and i also read the newspaper at elsalvador.com. Honduras's crime is very similar to the one in El Salvador. Nicaragua has gangs, extorsions, and alot of theft problems, My family in El Salvador know some Nicaraguans that live 2 houses down from them and they said that is one of the reasons other than extreme poverty that they left Nicaragua. It is know for being very corrupt country as well. Costa Rica San Jose has it's crime problems also but it looks like their main focus and problem is the crime's that the Nicaraguans that live there do. I can help you create crime sections for all these countries, I'm very familiar with all these countries. 190.53.15.171 00:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Feeeshboy I was just taking a look at your sandbox and your sources are from 2002! That is a very long time ago (5 years) many things have changed in those years, I would suggest a more up to date source 2006 would be good something more recent. I also saw a couple of things that you are writting about that have no source one of them the carjacking in 2005. The U.S dept. of state United States State Department has the same precautions for all countries in Central America just look at the ones for Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua they all have the same warnings. Take a look:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_985.html (Nicaragua)

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1135.html (Honduras)

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1129.html (Guatemala)

I also found this on crime in Central America and all countries are involved not just El Salvador to prove that country is a Major issue all over Central America:

http://www.interpeace.org/jset/servlet/JsServlet?svc=SRV&file=interpeace/wwwinterpeaceorg/dataweb.jsh&idpage=13

http://www.redcross.int/en/mag/magazine2003_2/12-13.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/756192.stm

http://www.americas.org/item_12

http://www.travelpod.com/cgi-bin/guest.pl?tweb_UID=stevecori&tweb_tripID=long_honeymoon&tweb_entryID=1127170680

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/142127.stm

http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/2990

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/cjys/2004/00000007/00000004/art00003;jsessionid=8b9sofdj9k7t1.alice

http://www.gangsorus.com/marasalvatrucha13.html

http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1593

http://www.outreach-international.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cs_gangs

http://www.vianica.com/nicaragua/9-health-and-safety.html

http://www.gvnet.com/streetchildren/Nicaragua.htm

http://www.thepioneer.com/international/jan19_youthgangs.htm

http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Nicaragua.htm

http://www.mexidata.info/id1088.html

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11292

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-26-2003-40835.asp

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1984

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=354

http://www.thehtd.org/travel/destination.asp?DocID=133

http://www.amcostarica.com/050504.htm

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/focus/youth_gun/managua9_e.htm

I hope this helps i know it's alot of articles but we need to be realists Crime is everywhere and as i have my sources i think all these countries in Central America should all have a Crime Section, El Salvador is not the only country with Crime problems if El Salvador gets one the rest of central america needs to get one too. We might want to work on all of them at once so it's not like one country has it and the others don't that would be unffair, we will make one for each country and when we are done with all of them they should be placed in the right article. Meanwhile i think we should hold of on it until we are able to make a crime section for all these Central America countries. 190.53.15.171 01:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

One note about sources: 190.53.15.171 made this statement: "I have family there and i also read the newspaper at elsalvador.com." While I'm certainly not about to say El Salvador doesn't have crime issues like any other country — and more than some — it's important to remember that any given newspaper will have leanings one way or the other that may make it likely to underreport crime or "hype" it, according to that paper's political outlook. El Diario de Hoy (elsalvador.com) historically has been a conservative-leaning paper and would have reason to highlight any government anti-crime crackdowns, etc. So some triangulation of data wouldn't be a bad idea (cross-checking among sources with different biases or points of focus). Lawikitejana 04:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That is why i provided all of these sources. Guatemala for example just had a massive murder of people the past week and cops were involved in the murders and in their newspapers they still don't want to say cops were involved because that makes the country look bad. Honduras has many gang problems but they don't disclose information to the fullest, wich means alot of things are unsaid. In El Salvador the news report everything that happens i will say that they don't hide anything because there is no reason to, unlike the rest of the countries they are more honest about what happens there so just incase visitors have no surprises. Also i will say El Salvador does carry a bad name when it comes to crime because of the civil war that ended 15 years ago. Another thing that adds to that is the MS 13 and La Mara 18 wich i will say and many police reports do say members are not all from El Salvador; there's also members from Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua that should be added on to every country when we make the Crime Sections for all the Central American countries. In other countries like Nicaragua, and Costa Rica everybody wants to believe that there is no Crime when there is Crime and corruption, and tourists get there thinking i'm 100% safe here and when they least expected they get robbed and pulled out of the taxi. These countries do report their crimes but for some reason nobody pays attention to these countries. San Jose, Costa Rica many tourist's in travel advisor websites and tourism and travel websites they say you have a higher chance of getting robbed there than in San Salvador, Managua, Nicaragua many tourists say that they have gotten robbed when walking by gang members, and Managua is known for being dangerous at any time of day. Nicaragua has it's gangs and they rob, steal, kill, extorsion, and much more but ofcourse there gangs are not known world wide because they join the Salvadorian gang or a Mexican gang. In one of the articles i provided it says Nicaragua has a gang called "Frijoles" no frijoles gang is going to be something all Nationalities want to join. In Costa Rica their Newspapers say most thefts and robberies that happen there are by Nicaraguans, many of them live in El Salvador too laprensagrafica.com will be able to provide sources. In El Salvador many Nicaraguans have been arrested for stealing as well and breaking in to businesses, We all know if they do this things in other peoples countries they surely do it in theirs. Poverty has made Crime rise in Nicaragua people can't get jobs and like one of my source say "they join gangs to steal because that's the only way for them to get money". Mexico is far more dangerous than El Salvador they have the "Mexican Mafia" that is bigger than the Mara Salvatrucha. Mexico's Crime tops all the Central American countries combined. 190.53.15.171 21:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Feeeshboy In your sandbox i noticed you have used old sources from 2002 many things have changes since then like i said before a more up to date source even 2005 works. I also noticed that you used the same newspaper as a source twice with 2 different paragraphs, you also used the United States State Department as a source twice. Many of the allegations you are making are not sourced but seem to come from a personal point of view. Let's not let your personal opinion get between making a good article, your personal opinions about El Salvador are your opinions what really goes on is what matters. Another thing your Section is too long you might want to start with something like a paragraph with good sources, no personal opinions either and from a neutral point of view. I will keep looking for sources on crime in Central America. It's not right for one country to have a crime section and not the rest of the countries, when all countries have about the same amount of crime and if one country has less crime they have more corruption so either way they are balanced out in problems. 190.53.15.171 22:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I was just looking at the Mexico article and it being known for being far more dangerous than El Salvador why doesn't it have a Crime section? I don't quite understand they have a huge Mafia why all the Negative attention has been turned to El Salvador, can somebody please explain because i just don't get it. Colombia is the most dangerous country in South America and not even they have a crime section. There is far more Dangerous countries out there like the ones mentioned above and El Salvador is the one getting all the Negativity, not right. I'm begining to think this may be something personal gainst El Salvador because not one single Latin American country has a crime section, but El Salvador is going to get one that makes El Salvador article look like a target of nothing but negative things. It doesn't look like anybody wants to add the nice things about El Salvador to make the article better, they just want to add the negative. 190.53.15.171 22:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, you need to caaaaalm dooooown, User 190.53.15.171. First of all, this page isn't about the comparative crime rates of various Latin American nations. It's about El Salvador. It's no more my responsibility than it is yours or anyone else's to add crime sections to all nations that should have them. If you want to add crime sections to those articles, then please do, by all means. As for this page, we're in total agreement that we need to restrict any content to properly sourced and generally important facts. As long as that is done, it doesn't matter what the motivations of the people who posted versions were.

Secondly, if you have comments directed just toward me, please post on my talk page.

Thirdly, if you'd paid any attention at all you'd see that I'm not posting any of my personal opinions anywhere, including in my sandbox. The text you're referring to is a copy of the previous crime section that got deleted, which I was using for a reference point, although I obviously didn't get very far with the revision. In addition to having a job, I had to take a couple of days off from working on the section because I was getting frustrated with how it was coming out, the lack of good sources, etc.

Finally, I did have some new ideas for the section, but I'm too annoyed to work on this now. Feeeshboy

00:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

My question is out of so many countries with even more serious crime problems, what made you choose El Salvador as your target? Do you have something personal against that country, I don't mean to offend you but it sure seems like it. So many countries in Latin America and you chose El Salvador. As a contributor i don't think it's right for countries to be targeted in that way, as if you are trying to make the article unpleasant and just intimidating for the reader. I provided good sources on crime in central america and if you took a minute to even look at it you would have noticed, all countries have many problems and they all have gangs. The State dept's. page that you used as a source has the same warnings for all central american countries if you haven't noticed. I don't think it's right to do what is being done, it's very unffair to the El Salvador article. Doesn't this website have somebody that supervises and checks that everything is done fair. It seems to me that you posting that crime section is something personal, nobody just decides to one day ruin an article about a country just because. Nobody takes their time to gather up negative information, and works so hard at ruining an article like i see happening here. Most people help improve the page and make it better in this case it's the other way around. I still strongly believe that it's unffair for one country to get a crime section and the rest get to keep their nice pages it's not fair to El Salvador. If one Latin American country gets a crime section so should the rest of them it's very unfair. 190.53.15.171

I'm also very concerned, I know i'm not a volunteer or an administrator but a contributor and i don't think of myself anything superior to anyone. I do know there is crime in my country, but then again, thats everywhere regardless of how much GDP a country has, Because the article is part of the Central American project i don't think there should be a crime section for only one country, and if someone decides to put their time in, i suggest all countries have one.190.53.15.171

Look, I appreciate that you seem to be trying to make a positive contribution to wikipedia, but you don't get that done by hurling unfounded accusations at people. I suggest you take some time to read WP:Assume good faith and WP:Civility before you post anything more on this subject.

Let me remind you of a few things: first, I'm not the editor who added the crime section in the first place. Several editors have either done that or expressed a need for one. You yourself agreed that a properly written crime section would be appropriate, so I don't see why you're suddenly complaining about it. I was simply trying to work on a crime section that was fair and unbiased to find a happy medium between the editors who kept putting up really alarmist tracts and those who were removing them. That's why I was working on it for this article. I had already contributed a little to this article and I had it on my watchlist. I'm not an expert on comparative crime in Central America, just an editor responding to what other people are posting.

Adding information that is sourced and true is not an act for or against El Salvador, or any other nation. You might as well ask me why I chose to try to improve this article, over, say, Nicaragua. The answer is that it's irrelevant. I can only contribute to wikipedia one edit at a time, and that may mean one page at a time. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and there are no fairness police. All of the articles on Central American nations have a long way to go before it's pertinent to start comparing which ones are missing which sections. And as I said, you have as much power to create crime sections for those pages as I have.

Finally, stop accusing others of being biased, especially because you're showing a real problem with point of view yourself, and you probably shouldn't attempt to edit this page if you can't see beyond your patriotism enough to realize that the purpose of an encyclopedia is to report facts. If you balk at acknowledging anything unflattering about your country, then that seriously compromises your ability to contribute to this page in a useful or meaningful way. Feeeshboy 14:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I just found out that User:190.53.15.171 has been blocked for sock puppetry, repeated personal attacks, and vandalism. So much for trying to work with the guy. Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/190.53.15.171 Feeeshboy 15:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL that was funny. I've been talking to a guy like him on the Medellín page.

I've put in a crime section by simply moving the San Salvador one here while making some minor changes. 99.9% of it was about El Salvador (the country) anyway. Power Society (talk) 05:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Admistrative Divisions Map

I don't know if anyone has noticed this but the admin. divisions map (Image:Elsalvador.svg) is incorrect. The capital (San Salvador) is labeled as Nueva San Salvador (which is AKA Santa Tecla), which is in La Libertad. Jorobeq 18:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Requesting rewrite and sources

This sounds a little.. off "El Salvador at the time was plagued with gangs much like those seen in movies of the old west. The national guard was created to combat those gangs and was very successful. The national guard was very effective and much appreciated by the rural population, it was equally hated by criminals and subversives. It's role in the 1932 communist rebellion was brutal but effective. The communist groups were acting in such savage ways that called for swift action by the government (read the book "matanza")." It is in the sub-section labeled "Independence" LaNicoya 11:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. I'll try to rewrite it later (very tired now). JuJube 11:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Salvadoran vs. Salvadorian

Which is right? Let's at least try to stick to a single spelling within the article itself. Not being from El Salvador, I'm sorry to say that I've no idea which is preferable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pi Guy 31415 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

============== Salvadoran is used in the press even though Salvadorian and Salvadorean are in the Dictionary as well. I would say Salvadoran should be used, as it is a more "proper" form. 199.17.198.36

I'd go with Salvadorean, SqueakBox 23:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

why ? Pcristiani 14:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Salvadorian/Salvadorean are much more often used in common usage, but Salvadoran is indeed the correct form. I believe both are correct and are interchangeable. Manic Hispanic 02:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Salvadoran seems to be more the standard. While search engines can't provide a definitive answer, I'd consider it telling that Googling "Salvadoran" yields 1.6 million hits, while "Salvadorian" and "Salvadorean" yield only about 255,000-266,000 each. It also corresponds to the Spanish "salvadoreño" in the same way that "Puerto Rican" does to "puertorriqueño" and "Honduran" does to "hondureño" (by way of comparison).Lawikitejana 04:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Salvadoran is more widely used in the press, encyclopedias, etc.. so that's the way to goPcristiani 14:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the spelling of "Salvadoran" is correct. For example, if the spelling was "Salvadorian", El Salvador would actually be El Salvadoria.. However that's not the case...

Salvadorian, Salvadoran or Salvadorean are all correct, because this is a linguistic matter, not a mistake, is known that in English language the adjectives to denote a nationality are words finished with -ian, -an. and some irregularities. In conclusion we said salvadoreño (and is correct) in Spanish but not mean that the country is called El Salvadore, ok.--Wynn (talk) 02:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as the above user stated, there isn't a "wrong" one, but Salvadoran seems to be the standard (at least in my book with denizen labels). I would always try to go with the standard.Kman543210 (talk) 02:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

A question?

If thousands of jews were given citizenship from Hungary and Romania, why is there only a couple hundred jews in el salvador? where did they all go? Did they return to europe? Manic Hispanic 20:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

If my interpretation of the sources given is right, the citizenship certifacates were used to save them from deportation, so I think they did stay in Hungary and Romania. If the emigrated later they would go to Israel, the United States or Western Europe, but not to El Salvador.--VirtualDelight 22:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

again with the africans

well i went to el salvador and i saw some blacks. maybe about 15. but there isnt any real note of pure blacks salvadoreans. the ones i saw may have been visiting or moved there from a countrie with blacks like honduras or nicaragua. the black ancestry may be there. some with curly hair and features of that nature may have desendants of african origin. if no salves were alowed the blacks may have come later in time like the 1900's or something like that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.249.39.187 (talk) 00:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

I've lived in El Salvador for around 20 years and I have never seen 15 blacks in my entire life in El Salvador... Pcristiani 17:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It's true El Salvador has no black population. Whatever Africans were there in the colonial days, mixed in with the mestizo population Manic Hispanic 17:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

There are no black in el salvador i´ve been living here for 15 years and there arent any , and if you see one ask him were he is from and he will surely be from anywere else but El Salvador , some people may not like that but el salvador is not a racist country its just the past that caused things to be this way now , i would personally prefer there be a black presence in our country but there is not. CJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.247.40.217 (talk) 03:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

JEWS, BLACKS and MORE

Finale. There is no black ancestry in El Salvador for all the reasons mentioned above, location, laws passed against them, and the abolition of slavery when independence was achieved. Jews, not many living in El Salvador now, BUT, thousands were saved during the holocaust because the government agreed to issue citizenship paperwork to thousands in Hungary and Romania (through the counselate in Hungary). The forms were "fill in" forms, there was a place for a picture and the name, DOB, address etc were blank and filled in by interested party, there was an official stamp already on (prob by the Salvadoran counselate in Hungary). No other nation in the entire world did anything at the time of the holocaust to save Jews; where's Steven Spielbergh? It should make a good movie.

Finally, in the opening paragraph; why is mentioning abortion so important, out of the zillion things we could say. It's kind of funny that in the same paragraph it is said the country is the most densely populated in the Americas, now we know why it is so dense.

Kaiser Sosa

Your are wrong about blacks in El Salvador. I'm Salvadorean and my dad's brothers and sisters range from white with green and blue eyes to Black!!! so there is no way in the world you can convince me there are no blacks in El Salvador because it's in my family and we're 100% Salvadorean. It would be impossible for there not to be because our next door neighbor Honduras has a large black population, so what would stop them from crossing over? MV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.208.182.121 (talk) 04:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

poverty statistic

I just want to point out that the statistic where is said that without remitances el Salvador would have 37% of extreme poverty instead of the current 6%, I think is incorrect because extreme poverty was 16% in 2005, acording to the Salvadorian government. (http://www.redsolidaria.gob.sv/content/view/677/46/1/1/)

Is it really correct???

in the [[4]] it says 35% is below poverty...Napoleondynamite1 20:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The cia factbook says 35.2% (2005 est.), although in my opinion the government statistic is also for 2005 and i would think is more accurate than the factbooks. If there is a major problem with that on the article you can state each statistic with the source. For example: "Exact estimates for the poverty statistic vary between sources...."

However, the source from the Salvadoran government refers to extreme poverty. Also, please sign your posts by adding ~~~~ at the end of your comments.  LaNicoya  •TALK• 20:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

the cia is always more accurate. and when it comes to all latin countries "extreme poverty" that is usually the term used.Napoleondynamite1 20:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Currency

The Salvadoran Colón has been removed from the article in order to reflect the fact that only the USDollars are in use. The change has been made considering that "A currency is a unit of exchange, facilitating the transfer of goods and services." The USDollar has become the unit used to the exchange of goods and services, and it is also used for tranding. Financial information is expressed in USDollars and in Salvadoran Colón. (username: Francisco 06:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC) )

TOURISM

hi i found this about el salvador tourism i think that this information should be added onto this article. i will read it again and take a couple sentences and post it on the section. here it is: http://www.elsalvador.com/mwedh/nota/nota_completa.asp?idCat=6342&idArt=1601920Mzciara 17:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

hello i found another one that states that in 2007 el salvador got 3rd place at the coffee fair that took place this year here is the article

http://www.elsalvador.com/mwedh/nota/nota_completa.asp?idCat=6374&idArt=1604932Mzciara 18:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Germans of Latin America

I'm sure many people have heard of Salvadorans' reputation as hard workers both by other latin americans in the U.S. and by those in neighboring countries in Central America. I recently read an article in the LA times that said Salvadorans are called "Germans of Latin America" because of their work ethic. http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-salvador5aug05,0,3015077.story?page=1&coll=la-headlines-pe-california Has anybody else seen or heard this? It would be worth putting in if has widespread use. ELSUSA

Yeah, ELSUSA, you are fucking insane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.194.28 (talk) 17:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The tourism section should go

It seems it is just publicity from El Salvador´s ministry of tourism. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and members of El Salvador's government should refrain from using it as propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.194.28 (talk) 16:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the entire article seems like one big piece of government propaganda. WTF! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.194.28 (talk) 17:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to bring to bring to everyones attention that user 66.249.194.28 is a troll. He seems to have a vendetta against El Salvador and its people. A simple search of the posts by this user and you will see that he post nothing but garbage. (More likely than not he is Mexican. He obviously doesn't realize that he makes his race look further worse.) --Gbapad 07:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Population

The 2007 census reflects the population declined for the first time. They estimated the population to be at 7.1 Million in 2007, the final numbers reflect the population to be 5.8 Million, a minus of 18.3 %. So the oppening paragraph of the article has to be corrected. KeniKex 18:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, a couple other sections have to be corrected now. There are different population estimates on this page. These webpages claim different populations; 5.9 [5], another 6.9[6] and another claims 5.8[7]. Some information on this page has to be changed according to the correct population. So which one is to be used? -- LaNicoya  •Talk•  04:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

HI! well I see that the official result of the 2007 census was updated, 5.8 So subject closed on this topic. Salud! 71.107.132.119 (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)KenikEx

Propaganda

Ironchuck 01:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)I'm a Salvadoran who currently lives and works in Central America. I'm completely appalled by the History section of this article. I think any objective person will see right through the propaganda as no attempt is even made to make it look neutral or academic. I can't for the life of me understand why so much effort is put into rewriting El Salvador's history, as it really can't influence Salvadorans who are the only ones in a position to set their country's political direction. My only guess is that American leftists have so much invested in Central American myths, El Salvador's "peasant uprising" being just one of them, that they are too embarrassed to face the music.

The fact is that El Salvador's guerrilla leaders were not "peasants" but garden-variety, predominantly white, middle-class Communists who were formed, trained, armed and financed by the Soviet satellite of Cuba. This is an undisputed fact in El Salvador; no one denies it in the country, not even the FMLN! While it is true that some anti-Communists commited war crimes, there is much speculation about the motives or intellectual perpetrators of some of the cases related here, yet the article presents them here as final verdicts. Also, the Communists commited many crimes, including kidnapping and murder of civilians, terrorism, destruction of the country's vital infrastructire, maiming and killing of children through their wholesale and indiscriminate use of land mines, but the reader of this piece is none the wiser because these things, reported by the UN Truth Commission, are not even mentioned.

So, for anyone out there interested in the truth, stay clear of the History section of this article as it is garbage. Look to the UN Truth Commission Report which is somewhat more balanced. Ironchuck 01:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

removed unsourced, contradictory, POV comment

"The military government...backed by the United States, was responsible for more than 75,000 civilian deaths. Atrocities by revolutionary guerrillas, who received some Soviet aid, were not uncommon, but these casualties numbered far less than the thousands killed by the military."

This article and other sources claim that only about 70,000 people died in total. Saying that all deaths were the responsibility of the government is total POV. AdamRetchless 04:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

CRIME where is the part of this article that deals with the largest gang in the world. Ms13 and how the commanders of the guerilla armies after the peace accords actually started them. How about the fact that many of the death squads were trained at the school of the americas. (being a step-son of one of the "graduates" from the school of the americas. and my father was a "guardia" also during the war, there is incredible bias in this article) Also the gap between poor and rich. for example the normal monthly income is 100. if that. my family, living in various parts of El Salvador earn this. that is their living wage. The dollar destroyed the country. The dollar was worth 8 colones, you could buy a liter of soda for 6 colones. now however a liter cost 1.50 to 2.50. that's how the economy went the way it is.

And the fact that Romero wasnt' mentioned is astonishing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.244.20 (talk) 19:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

On the American mainland

Because "on the American mainland" is ambiguous (it can be interpreted as within the 48 contiguous American states), can we change it to "in the Americas" to be clearer? Before I make that change I want to be sure that this is what is meant. DBlomgren 15:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

things on tourism and demographics

I was reading this article and came accross something that should not be on the tourism section. And what does the Mara Salvatrucha have to do with the demographics? why is there a picture of someone with that tattoo on there? Seriously this so called encyclopedia is nothing but a joke whoever is in charge of this wikipedia isn't doing their job right because any ignorant person with access to a computer can write things on here. My advice to you is you should have something set up where when people try to post things have them be reviewed and checked if they are even appropriate or relevant to the subject. If anyone wants to get into child prostitution i can do my research on every latin american country and every country better have a section on their as well if El Salvador has one, and about the Mara Salvatrucha mexicans as well as Guatemalans, Hondurans, and Nicaraguans are all people that join that gang and there are Ms13 gang members from all those countries. The only reason why El Salvador is the main country is because they decided to name it after the country it doesn't mean every single member is from El Salvador you may want to do a little research before allowing people to post these things. And if El Salvador has a picture of an Ms member the countries i mentioned need one too and if it necessary i can get information and links to back it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.187.156.45 (talk) 06:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Page Blocked!

Im blocking the page due to an edit war going on, page blocked until January 8, 2008! Greenrico09 (talk) 04:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• Seeing as how you're not an administrator, you can't do that. JuJube (talk) 05:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

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