Talk:Elementary school

Elementary school should have it's own article

I honestly think that elementary school should have it's own article. i am so fat and suck. It even says in the UK that they formerly used elementary school. Elementary school has a lot of history. (MrsMacMan 19:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC))

I think we agree that an article on elementary school is needed. However the introductory paragraph must be neutral. You cannot introduce terminology which is specific to the US (like grades and grade school) and make it sound as though they apply to the whole world. I hope my amendments now provide a more neutral point of view. Dahliarose 20:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

SOCKEM- When did the name change.

In Seattle, we use the word sokem or sockem insted of dodgeball. Has anyone else use it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.61.45.100 (talk • contribs)

• Does this have anything to do with the article? Jedibob5 (talk) 18:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
• This would be more appropriate on Talk:Dodgeball. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 01:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Age range

The section on US Elementary Schools does not give the age range, which means it is difficult to compare with other countries. Could somebody add this info? (I don't know the answer or I'd do it myself) Mrstonky (talk) 17:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

American terminology

The age ranges seem to be given with terminology that probably means nothing outside North America. For example what does "K2" mean? What ages are "grades 3 to 8"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.251 (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I was looking to find what K-N means but couldn't find it here. My guess is 'from Kindergarten to grade N'. 90.156.82.87 (talk) 07:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Brazilian Schools

The text presented has wrong information about the brazilian education. The text folow is from the INEP, one department of MEC, the Ministry of Education in Brazil. References: http://www.inep.gov.br/

NÍVEIS/MODALIDADES DE ENSINO

Creche: Instituição de assistência social que presta atendimento a crianças de até três anos de idade, no âmbito da Educação Infantil. Até o ano de 1996 não eram coletadas pelos Censos Escolares informações sobre esta modalidade da Educação Infantil, portanto, somente poderão ser obtidas em consultas referentes aos anos posteriores.

Pré-escola: Modalidade da Educação Infantil que presta atendimento a crianças de quatro a seis anos de idade.

Educação Infantil: Trata-se da primeira etapa da educação básica e tem como finalidade o desenvolvimento integral da criança até seis anos de idade, em seus aspectos físico, psicológico, intelectual e social, complementando a ação da família e da comunidade. A educação infantil é oferecida em (1) creches, ou entidades equivalentes e (2) pré-escolas.

Educação Básica: Compreende a educação infantil (creche e pré-escola), ensino fundamental e ensino médio.

Classe de Alfabetização(CA): Conjunto de alunos que são reunidos em sala de aula para aprendizagem da leitura e da escrita, durante um semestre ou um ano letivo. As classes de alfabetização formalmente não pertencem nem à pré-escola nem ao ensino fundamental.

Ensino Fundamental: Nível de ensino obrigatório (e gratuito na escola pública), com duração mínima de 8 (oito) anos, podendo ser organizado em séries, ciclos ou disciplinas. Tem por objetivo a formação básica do cidadão, mediante: (1) o desenvolvimento da capacidade de aprender, tendo como meios básicos o pleno domínio da leitura, da escrita, e do cálculo; (2) a compreensão do ambiente natural e social, do sistema político, da tecnologia, das artes e dos valores em que se fundamenta a sociedade; (3) o desenvolvimento da capacidade de aprendizagem, tendo em vista a aquisição de conhecimentos e habilidades e a formação de atitudes e valores; (4) o fortalecimento dos vínculos de família, dos laços de solidariedade humana e de tolerância recíproca em que se assenta a vida social. O ensino fundamental é presencial, sendo o ensino à distância utilizado como complementação da aprendizagem ou em situações emergenciais.

Fundamental Total: Ensino Fundamental de 1ª a 8ª série.

Fundamental 1ª a 4ª: Ensino Fundamental de 1ª a 4ª série.

Fundamental 5ª a 8ª: Ensino Fundamental de 5ª a 8ª série.

Ensino Médio: Nível de ensino com duração mínima de três anos. Trata-se da etapa final da educação básica. Tem por finalidades: (1) a consolidação e o aprofundamento dos conhecimentos adquiridos no ensino fundamental, possibilitando o prosseguimento de estudos; (2) a preparação básica para o trabalho e a cidadania do educando, para continuar aprendendo, de modo a ser capaz de adaptar-se com flexibilidade a novas condições de ocupação ou aperfeiçoamento posteriores; (3) o aprimoramento do educando como pessoa humana, incluindo a formação ética e o desenvolvimento da autonomia intelectual e do pensamento crítico; (4) a compreensão dos fundamentos científico-tecnológicos dos processos produtivos, relacionando a teoria com a prática, no ensino de cada disciplina.

Educação Especial: É uma modalidade de educação escolar oferecida na rede regular de ensino ou em escolas especializadas, para educandos portadores de necessidades especiais. A oferta de educação especial, dever constitucional do Estado, tem início na faixa etária de zero a seis anos, durante a educação infantil e o atendimento educacional é feito em classes, escolas ou serviços especializados, sempre que, em função das condições específicas dos alunos, não for possível a sua integração nas classes comuns de ensino regular.

Educação de Jovens e Adultos (EJA): Destina-se àqueles que não tiveram acesso ou continuidade de estudos no ensino fundamental e médio na idade própria. É organizada em cursos e exames supletivos, habilitando o aluno/candidato ao prosseguimento de seus estudos em caráter regular.

EJA Presencial – Alfabetização: Educação de Jovens e Adultos, em nível de alfabetização, com presença obrigatória dos alunos em sala de aula.

EJA Presencial – Fundamental de 1ª a 8ª série: Educação de Jovens e Adultos, em nível de ensino fundamental de 1ª a 8ª série, com presença obrigatória dos alunos em sala de aula.

EJA Presencial – Fundamental de 1ª a 4ª série: Educação de Jovens e Adultos, em nível de ensino fundamental de 1ª a 4ª série, com presença obrigatória dos alunos em sala de aula.

EJA Presencial – Fundamental de 5ª a 8ª: Educação de Jovens e Adultos, em nível de ensino fundamental de 5ª a 8ª série, com presença obrigatória dos alunos em sala de aula.

EJA Presencial – Médio: Educação de Jovens e Adultos, em nível de ensino médio, com presença obrigatória dos alunos em sala de aula.

EJA Presencial – Suplência Profissionalizante: Educação de Jovens e Adultos para alunos matriculados em cursos profissionalizantes, com presença obrigatória em sala de aula. Curso realizado em nível médio que reúne, para obtenção do diploma, a conjugação de duas etapas de estudos: uma parte de educação geral e outra de qualificação profissional.

EJA Presencial – Curso de Aprendizagem: Educação de Jovens e Adultos em curso de formação metódica no trabalho destinado a alunos de 14 a 18 anos de idade, podendo desenvolver-se a nível fundamental ou médio. A formação para o trabalho é feita diretamente nas empresas ou instituições por elas criadas.

Educação Superior: Abrange os seguintes cursos e programas: (1) cursos seqüenciais por campo de saber, de diferentes níveis de abrangência, abertos a candidatos que atendam aos requisitos estabelecidos pelas instituições de ensino; (2) graduação, aberto a candidatos que tenham concluído o ensino médio ou equivalente e tenham sido classificados em processo seletivo; (3) pós-graduação, compreendendo programas de mestrado e doutorado, cursos de especialização, aperfeiçoamento e outros, aberto a candidatos diplomados em cursos de graduação e que atendam às exigências das instituições de ensino; (4) extensão, aberto a candidatos que atendam aos requisitos estabelecidos em cada caso pelas instituições de ensino. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.75.47.138 (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Grade School

The first line of the article where it says "For specifically grade schools, see grade school" it links back to the article at hand. Is this on purpose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.19.8.71 (talk) 17:05, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be an article for a grade school. I'm not sure what one is. I've deleted the hatnote as primary schools and grammar schools are already Wikilinked in the text. Dahliarose (talk) 21:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

the actual grades

I came to only have one question answered. What grades are considered elementary school? But it's really hard to get an answer from this page. It talks about middle school and high school grades (9-12) but I fail to see mention of grades (1-5) which are elementary. (6-8 are middle). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eydaimon (talk • contribs) 19:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Historic meaning of elementary school

With various edits the historic definition of elementary seems to have got deleted from this article. This is an important definition which needs to be included here. I've restored the content and added an additional reference. Dahliarose (talk) 13:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Merge into Primary school?

Be aware that as this discussion has developed, we seem to be moving towards a recommendation to create articles for the main types of Elementary school around the world (notably in the Canada, the USA and formerly in the UK)

Can I suggest we again discuss merging this article (and Junior school and Infant school and First school) into Primary school? I am suggesting this because they broadly cover the age range and the same subject. Guidelines suggest that Wikipedia is not a dictionary and contain a strong recommendation that there should only be one article for any one subject.

I suggest we keep Primary education separate. The 'school' article can cover in some depth how the institution operates and has developed, the education article can cover the theory and practice of teaching to this age group, and how that has developed. The format of these article will then mimic the Preschool and Early childhood education articles for this age group.

Fyi, I will also suggest on the Primary Education article that we split out an article titled 'Primary education by country' with all the country by country content content which is very long as it now includes the merged country content from this article and from Primary school as well as the original content.

Any thoughts?

-- PeterEastern (talk) 02:49, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure: I'm not sure I see any benefits. Certainly in the UK, and perhaps in Ireland, a primary school is a very different beast from an infant school, both in the operational structure and in the learning experience. I don't think they need to be merged. I'd prefer to keep them separate. Atlas-maker (talk) 08:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree that there are some differences. Lets see what other views are expressed over the next day or so. Fyi, I have just found yet another article on pretty much the same subject, First school, which also has its own thin article! I will add it to the merge proposal as well now. PeterEastern (talk) 16:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

• Disagree: I disagree with the idea of a merge. There are too many differences between all these different types of schools and they cannot all be covered by one article. For example, an American elementary school is very different from a primary school in the UK and it makes no sense to have them both in one article. Elementary school has a specific historical meaning in the UK. I previously restored this meaning to this article, and will reinstate it. Please can you discuss before deleting it again. Dahliarose (talk) 10:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I am, however, unclear what you are referring to when you say 'Please can you discuss before deleting it again'. To be clear I have only made minor edits to the article (other than merging the 'country by country' content into Primary education yesterday), and have never deleted or proposed the deletion of this article. PeterEastern (talk) 16:27, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support the merge. Both articles cover the main elementary (US name) or primary (UK name) education of children. One article on this topic would do a better service to our readers, by having a single encyclopedic treatment of the topic in Wikipedia. Obviously however, the distinctives of the typical US vs. typical UK vs typical other country or culture's treatment and handling of such education can be explicated and contrasted in the article. Cheers. N2e (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
• Reserved Support: I'm not going to object outright (although was tempted), but if a merge is chosen as the way forward then it is important that the distinctions between the school types are clearly covered in the combined article, not just presuming to subsume the small entities under the larger. Perhaps ensuring that infant / junior / first are at the very least linkable subheadings within the larger article. Tafkam (talk) 20:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

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I hear the reservations. Possibly we should think about other approaches to the problem.

My objection to the current article remains that it is more appropriate to a dictionary than a encyclopedia. Would it be better to fork an Elementary school (England and Wales) article (which can then include a considerable amount of detail about when and why they were set up in the UK, their legislative basis, and then why they were eventually replaced). We can separately create an Elementary school (United States) article, which will cover the same topics as they related and still relate to the USA. Might this work better? The same can be done for other jurisdictions and other types of school if desired. PeterEastern (talk) 23:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I can see no reason to move the main subject away from Elementary school to some disambiguated naming scheme. If anyone wishes to write an article about the historical use of the name in the UK then that would be an appropriate title. But what is the failure that raises from the current naming schemes? Atlas-maker (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think we are that far apart really. Following the discussion above, I am happy to leave this article pretty much as it is and create the two articles as I propose for specific instances of 'Elementary school]]. I have already highlighted the 'failure' as I see it, which is WP:NAD. PeterEastern (talk) 06:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
• According to the Primary education in the United States article, there are '92,858 elementary schools (68,173 public, 24,685 private) in the United States. Seems a good enough reason for an article on the subject. I think we should add Elementary school (Canada) to the list, given that they also use the term for their schools for kids of this age. Needless to say they will have a different history and issues from the USA (including instruction in French in most schools!),[1] so we shouldn't combine the USA and Canada articles. PeterEastern (talk) 10:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
• I have created a article titled Elementary school (England and Wales) and seeded it with content taken originally from the UK section of this article (with is currently in Primary education). Fyi, I have also created an article titled Comprehensive school (England and Wales) based on content from Comprehensive school (which was a general article covering the world). Do also check out the table in State-funded schools (England) where I have tried to make sense of all the types of state school that have existed over the past 140 years in a single table (which is always going to be a simplification of reality as I caution in the intro to the table)! PeterEastern (talk) 17:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
• Fyi, I have now also created Elementary school (United States), based on content from Primary education, Primary education in the United States and Education in the United States. PeterEastern (talk)

List of targets

• Infant school
• First school
• Junior school
• Primary school
• Elementary school

Any more? Atlas-maker (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by 'list of targets'. If you are saying that I have also highlighted these as being 'dictionary' style articles, then you would be correct. These are all the article that I have found so far in the Primary education age-range (5-11). There are also Middle school, Central school and no doubt others which are in the widest Elementary school age range (being 5-14) but which now appear to be secondary education. It may be appropriate to fork of a Primary school (England and Wales) article in particular. Let's however focus on Elementary school in the first instance. PeterEastern (talk) 06:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The list of targets is a list of articles that should be affected by any merge. It would be silly to merge some and not the others. Atlas-maker (talk) 09:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I understand, however these are already all listed in my intro paragraph to this section. If however we agree that the better route would be to create articles for notable instances of these types of school around the world, then there would be no big merge. Personally I am for this second approach now. PeterEastern (talk) 10:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Redirect

For some reason this page got redirected to the page for primary school. I cannot see any consensus for a merger so I have reverted the edit. Elementary school has a specific historical meaning in the UK and is not the same thing as a primary school. A US elementary school is also not necessarily the equivalent of a primary school in other countries. Dahliarose (talk) 18:28, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

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Merge with Primary school, revisited

These articles should definitely be merged. The difference is only in terminology. There was only one strong objection back when this was proposed in 2013, which merely said "an American elementary school is very different from a primary school in the UK" without saying what those differences are. Obviously there are differences, but they are nothing to do with the name. It is true that "elementary school" has a different historical meaning in UK, but it was not at all like a US elementary school, and so it is quite rightly in a different article, Elementary school (England and Wales). And since we now have the US-specific article Elementary school (United States) (created in December 2013, after the merger discussion), it makes sense for the generic articles (Elementary school and Primary school) to be merged. Adpete (talk) 01:49, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose The difference is not only terminology. I can see the need to continually push towards generic articles, when we should be specialising. I thought it was plainly obvious what the differences are. They are culturally different, out a time, and a different of what education aught to be. You basing your whole on the idea a common name, which is roughly the same language and meaning, but really worlds apart. scope_creep^Talk 21:11, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

So what is one difference, apart from the name? Adpete (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

You don't seem to be that keen to do the research. You're basing the whole premise on the similarity of names. scope_creep^Talk 23:01, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I have researched, and can't find anything. You say the differences are "plainly obvious", so you should be able to name one. Adpete (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Have to agree with user:Adpete. Claiming there are differences but refusing to state what they are is not useful. For the third time user:Scope creep, what are these differences? I see little difference in the topics and I suspect that any differences could easily be incorporated into a merged article. I'm willing to reconsider my support if there is a a convincing argument for doing so, but so far there is just an unsupported claim that may be nothing but an opinion. Meters (talk) 21:43, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support Two different articles on one same subject, primary education. "Worlds apart" is a hyperbole; the small difference could very simply be explained in one article. Spyder212 (talk) 21:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

However, I notice that this has already been discussed in July 2017 at Talk:Primary school: opposed by 3, supported by 1. Another question is who will actually perform the merge if it is accepted, and will it contribute to the development of the article. Merging is relatively easy, but I question further development of the article. Spyder212 (talk) 21:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support Clearly the same topic. Just look a the first line of the lead of Primary school, "A primary school (or elementary school in American English and often in Canadian English) is a school in which children receive primary or elementary education..." Any regional differences would be easily covered in a merged article. Meters (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment @Davey2010:, @ClemRutter:, @Lineslarge: Can you please comment on this please. scope_creep^Talk 23:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Response from ClemRutter

In general I favour merging elementary school into primary school but with some big buts. Principally removing all the text and links that suggest that primary schools and elementary schools are synonyms.

On all education matters we need to go back to the ISCED definitions- and currently ISCED 2011. A primary school delivers ISCED 2011 phase one- while a elementary school delivered the elementary education that a working class child in 1902 would need to become part of the labour force, this in 2011 speak would include ISCED 2011 phase one and parts of phase two. In the UK in 1944, the Elementary schools were divided into Primary Elementary Schools (known as Primary Schools) and Secondary Elementary Schools (Secondary Modern Schools). In the states they continued to call them Elementary Schools. Linguistically, it is hard to distinguish. Look at Canada in the Educational stage page, and particularly Newfoundland and Yukon. In an ISCED 2011 spreadsheet for France we find les enfants passant from the Maternelle (education pre-elementaire) to the Ecole (education primaire), which you can interpret as synonymous or using the distinction I mentioned above. This discussion of the terms can be incorporated into the merged article. Our article fr:École élémentaire en France says that when the Maternelle, and the Élémentaire are on the same site then that is spoken of as a École Primaire!

This article suggests the term école primaire originates in France in 1802, a glance at French Wikipedia fr:Histoire de l'éducation en France will give:the loi du 12 décembre 1792 qui a pour objectif d'ouvrir l'enseignement primaire. This to me suggests that the existing article was not very well researched, and needs to be erased and should be started afresh. ClemRutter (talk) 10:53, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

UTC)

• • Response from Lineslarge

As they currently stand, there is not enough content in, or difference between, the articles to justify two separate articles. Elementary school is essentially an enlarged dab page, while Primary school explicitly covers both topics in a single article. Personally, I would convert Elementary school to a disambigustion page and keep Primary School as is. I would also consider merging Primary education or creating a clearer split of topic as there is a large crossover at present. Lineslarge (talk) 13:26, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support. They are the same concept with different terminology. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 09:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.