Talk:Elephant Nature Park

Assessment

This article still sounds like an ad for the founder (though I have toned it down a bit). It needs to be rewritten so that it's about the facility, though a section dedicated to the founder (if she is not notable enough for her own article) would not hurt. The awards section is decently cited, but the bulk of the article has no citations yet. I am leaving it as start-class for now. Don Lammers (talk) 13:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

More additions were made that mostly seem to be aboout the founder. This article is not about Lek, it is about the elephant park. Awards TO THE PARK are relevant, but not awards to HER. I have gotten rid of some of the worst of the non-encyclopedic content. If the founder is not notable for her own article, then this information at least should be separated out onto a new section so it's clear that it is about the founder, not the park. In addition, nobody has added citations. Don Lammers (talk) 15:36, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I have removed additional ad-like content and peacock words, and moved the information specifically about the founder to a separate section. I also removed some duplicated statements of awards, as well as information (specifically about supplying medical care to rural areas in her trips) that has nothing to do with the facility. I also added a controversy section based on an evaluation by Elephant Aid International (with citation). Otherwise, this article is still not adequately cited. Don Lammers (talk) 22:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

POV

From the point of view of professionals, ENP is highly criticized for its elephant management. My own report can be found here, and here, is a document written by Carol Buckley. being the author of one of the documents, I feel reluctant to give the critical views of this place, but I hope someone else does. I will now mark the article POV, though, it really needs some truth, not only being an advertisement. Dan Koehl (talk) 12:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Dan Koehl. Even though you are an expert in the field, I don't personally think we are able to use your blog as a citation (though other editors may feel that it's admissible and can opine on that here). I did however quote the one reliable source that I found linked in it. If you can provide reliable sources for any of the facts you aver, we can use those. Softlavender (talk) 04:42, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• I'm taking the liberty of calling in Jytdog to look at least into the COI SPAs which had dominated the article, and which are edit-warring to preserve the promotional material (which by all accounts from Dan Koehl's blog linked above, are spurious and misleading). Jytdog, at the very least can you label this talk page with the SPAs? Softlavender (talk) 04:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hey - I have opened a discussion with adamflinn on their Talk page. Once that is resolved I will swing by back here and look at content, but one thing at a time. I will list connected contributors above in a minute.Jytdog 05:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I didn't even realize that Adam Flinn (the creator and SPA of this article, currently edit-warring) was the co-founder of, and is the owner of, the Park. Thanks for figuring that out. Softlavender (talk) 05:44, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I feel somewhat trapped in this case, being actively part of critics against the ENP, and on the other hand, being maybe one of the few independent elephant consultants, who could give a professional view. Some facts I also documented my website www.elephant.se, which is not a blog, and therefore free from opinions, giving relevant information about thousand of elephants from 2614 location facilities in 121 countries, and cited on Wikipedia since 2002. I will be happy to assist in any way, being a veteran Wikimedia user, Im aware of risk of POV, and therefore prefer to wait for instructions based om consensus, rather than just expressing my opinion loud. I strongly argue though, that medical issues, with potential risks for guests getting infected with diseases, is something serious, and needs relevant attention in general in regard to captive elephant locations, as well as in the Wikipedia article about ENP, since ENP had a very large turnover of over 70 elephants, increasing statistical risk of TB a lot. Dan Koehl (talk) 05:58, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You need to indicate what links on www.elephant.se you consider usable. To most fully meet Wikipedia requirements, the most reliable source would be if you were to get information published in a reliable-source third-party venue (either online or offline), independent of yourself. Or find an independent reliable source that mentions facts you consider relevant. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I was a recent visitor to the park recently and my observation was that there was a fairly significant mismatch between the public portrayal of the park and the reality I observed in a brief visit. Sufficient that I did additional research upon return, in the process discovering Dan Koehl's literature referenced above. I'm not any kind of expert in Elephant well-being, and it may well be the case that the animals there enjoy a far better life than their previous one. However I do support the position that the article needs much more balance and degree of scrutiny of the operation - it is without doubt a highly commercial operation with an extremely slick marketing strategy - and no questions are asked about its ethical basis (including purchasing animals from (abusive?) owners at market value and their subsequent use in a "petting zoo", in addition to the questions about health and management. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martyn123 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

SPA editors listing

Clear COI here and probably all same person, or working for ENP or the foundation.

Apparently they have changed their website names several times, and logo, and a lot of these edits are just fiddling to get those things right. Major contributors have been Adamflinn and 180.183.207.66 and of course the IP today.

• Adamflinn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% WP:SPA for this topic; created article. Per editing statistics has the most contribs
• 222.123.133.1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) only here, in thailand per whois
• EleInfo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% SPA, briefly to try to fix weblinks for the foundation and a travel agency (!) www.thaifocus.com that no longer exists and redirects to the park website
• 117.47.226.228 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% SPA,fiddling with links in april 2008, in thailand per whois
• 117.47.223.23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% SPA, more of the same, in thailand per whois
• 180.183.207.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% SPA; major rewrite. in thailand per whois
• RuralSquirrel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% SPA. Fiddling edits. Per this dif said name was "mindy"; tried to create article on "Save Elephant Foundation"
• 180.183.200.99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 100% SPA, fiddling.
• Elemanxx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 99% SPA, edited data on image files, uploaded more images.
• 194.187.251.44 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - 100% SPA - today's battler.

Clear COI for something else

• Chesbegley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - stopped by in 2007 and spammed in links to eleaid.com, they were 100% SPA for EleAid (COI obvious, real name)
• 90.241.57.234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - stopped by in 2007 and spammed in links to elephantkingdom.com
• 86.177.181.176 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - SPA for tell tale travel in the UK, that has deals with Elephant Nature Park; IP in the UK
• 81.148.52.252 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - as above

- Jytdog (talk) 06:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks very much for compiling this. BTW, "Save Elephant Foundation" is connected to, or part of, Elephant Nature Park. Softlavender (talk) 07:49, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

yes they are to the park as WMF is to us. The park is one of their projects. Jytdog (talk) 07:58, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Adding LL 5700 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is becoming a problem and probably needs a talking to on their user talk page despite their claims of uninvolvement (pinging Jytdog). Otherwise, may eventually end up at ANI and/or blocked. Softlavender (talk) 00:30, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Update today

I did work at the library today. The backstory here is very opaque. When was Save the Elephant Fdn formed and how runs it? meh. Anyway, if anybody wants sources that have no links feel free to email me - I downloaded them and can send them to you. Jytdog (talk) 03:06, 15 June 2016 (UTC)