Talk:Elisabeth Dmitrieff

Birth and death dates

I've updated the range of death dates to 1916-1918. It's true that some sources give a date of 1910 (so far, just encyclopedias, as far as I can tell), but it doesn't make sense to maintain this date in the article given the evidence that Braibant and Knizhnik-Vetrov have (though I am getting K-V through Eichner and Braibant, as I have not read K-V's Russian original). Braibant shows that Dmitrieff was in a 1916 Moscow directory. Sources giving an earlier date simply didn't have that information available to them (or didn't look), and Braibant talks about this.

Similarly, Braibant says that the civil register clearly lists her date of birth as 1 November 1850, so I'm going to remove the 1851 date, which as observed in the GA review isn't coming from sources so reliable that they can really counter the 1850 date. (I almost wonder if it started as a typo...?)

I'm comfortable with both of these changes because Braibant specifically names the documents in which the information was found. Yes, Braibant could be incorrect in her reading, but if we can't trust Braibant to read historical documents accurately, this article has much bigger problems than just a birth/death date. Writers other than just Braibant do support both the 1850 and the 1916+ dates. -- asilvering (talk) 20:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nattes à chat: fyi! -- asilvering (talk) 20:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Elisabeth Dmitrieff Circle / Cercle Elisabeth Dimitriev

In May 1971, a group of feminist Trotskyists participating in the Women's Liberation Movement and the Revolutionary Marxist Alliance, who were simultaneously close to the values of the women's movement and to that of workers' self-management, created the Elisabeth Dmitrieff Circle.

• Allwood, Gill; Wadia, Gill (2001). "Gender and Class in Britain and France" (PDF). Journal of European Area Studies. 9 (2): 163–189. doi:10.1080/14608460120106236. S2CID 147573023.
• Ludivine Bantigny (2021). La Commune au présent : une correspondance par-delà le temps. p. 149. ISBN 978-2-348-06669-6. OCLC 1241123887. Retrieved 19 March 2021.
• "Les femmes de la Commune : Élisabeth Dmitrieff". Association Autogestion. 14 November 2011. Retrieved 15 March 2021.

The above was under the "legacy" section of the article. As part of the GA nomination review process I'm pulling it out for now since in this state it's a bit too much like contextless trivia. Leaving the original sentence and the citations here in case anyone wants to try adding a couple of sentences to it so it works better in the article. -- asilvering (talk) 23:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I disagree there. This Elisabeth Dmitrieff circle was one of the feminists cirlces of the seventies in Paris. Dmitrieff's notable actions took place in Paris. The fact that they chose her name for their group is symbolic and proves that she was still remembered in some leftist feminist circles. These circles together formed the French MLF, so I would not call it trivia. It might feel like trivia from an american perspective, but not from a francophone one. Nattes à chat (talk) 17:04, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Nattes à chat, I think asilvering was responding to my comment that the article didn't provide enough context to actually understand what the circle is. Is it a social circle like the Bloomsbury group, or an organization like the Union des femmes? The sentence does not even say that they were in Paris. For a reader with only the vaguest background on the topic (like myself) I really could not guess, and without more explanation, it felt out of place as a random fact. But that is a problem with the writing, not with the information itself. It would be wonderful if you were able to use these sources to write a fuller explanation of the group, to make it informative for newcomers like me! ~ L 🌸 (talk) 22:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

You know, I think one way to express what @Nattes à chat was saying, while bringing back in some of those items that I suggested removing because they didn't really follow MOS:POPCULT, would be to rename the "Place Elisabeth Dmitrieff" heading as "In France", and expand that section somewhat. That would make the Place E-D bit fit better with the rest and give a good reason to mention those comic books etc that otherwise fell into an "in pop culture" hole. I'll do this now, let me know what you both think when I'm done? Also paging @Bowlhover. -- asilvering (talk) 22:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I've tried that - @LEvalyn, is it still confusing? It doesn't say anything more, but I think pulling it all together like this makes it easier to read as "aha, another thing named after her, and this one is a group of feminists" than "wait, what's important about this Elisabeth Dmitrieff Circle, am I supposed to know what all these words mean?" -- asilvering (talk) 01:20, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

T Ok I undestand the issue. The MLF was not a formal organisation in France, because it was against hierarchical structures. Ffor the Elisabeth Dmitriefff circle there serious referenes :

1. https://data.bnf.fr/11877306/mouvement_de_liberation_des_femmes_cercle_elisabeth_dimitriev_france/ => BNF
2. https://viaf.org/viaf/141475014/
3. https://www.cairn.info/la-commune-au-present--9782348066696-page-149.htm
4. https://books.google.ch/books?id=LPC6MgEACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Mouvement+de+lib%C3%A9ration+des+femmes+(France).+Cercle+Elisabeth+Dimitriev%22&hl=fr&sa=X&redir_esc=y
5. https://collectifdroitsdesfemmes.org/spip.php?article245
6. https://books.google.ch/books?id=9WB9DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT375&lpg=PT375&dq=Cercle+Elisabeth+Dimitriev&source=bl&ots=EEvu5h8rTf&sig=ACfU3U2H2QxxNe_RIMssDYCzqqwQIhjLvg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2osmp_8f1AhXug_0HHaiuCAcQ6AF6BAgpEAM#v=onepage&q=Cercle%20Elisabeth%20Dimitriev&f=false

This is a quick search :) Nattes à chat (talk) 13:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

This source seems to indicate the Dmitrieff circle was in Lyon https://journals.openedition.org/clio/13784. Carolyn Eichner mentions the circle Dmitrieff here https://journals.openedition.org/lectures/42966?lang=es Nattes à chat (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Wow, this article is now a Good Article! Thanks to everyone, especially @asilvering and @Nattes à chat, for getting it over the line! I'm sorry that I was useless; I got very busy and could only help a bit with addressing the issues. As for the Circle and cultural references, I don't have strong opinions about it. I've never really liked those parts of Wikipedia articles because they often feel like unilluminating trivia--even the most obscure historical figure probably has something named after it somewhere by somebody. That said, I think Asilvering's new subsection ("In France") isn't bad. --Bowlhover (talk) 07:26, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes, thank you for reminding me to thank and congratulate everyone for their contributions towards this GA! Group high five, everyone! :) -- asilvering (talk) 16:04, 4 February 2022 (UTC)