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I thought Queen Elizabeth II was born in may? 21st. day of May

I thought Queen Elizabeth II was born in may? 21st. day of May in Canada we even have our Victoria long weekend in May???? Some idiot thinks the Queen is born in April!!!! HUH?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.139.201 (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually the Queen was born in April. Queen Victoria, the monarch at the time of Canada's confederation, was born in May. Victoria Day, as the name may give a clue, celebrates the birth of Queen Victoria, and also the birthday of Canada's present monarch, but the day doesn't change to actual date of the present monarch's birthday. It's just like in the UK, Australia, NZ, etc where the Queen's official birthday is in June for example, in Canada it's in May, but the Queen's actual birthday is in April. --~Knowzilla ^(Talk) 06:36, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

See also Queen's Official Birthday. Could we add this to the article somewhere? --Kjoonlee 10:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I've added it to the lead section, as a note. If the infobox or somewhere else would be better, please move it. Thanks. --Kjoonlee 09:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't there for the blessed event (mainly because I was born in 1971), but yes, she was born April 21, 1926. GoodDay (talk) 13:01, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

All simple official facts like these can easily be checked at the The Official Website of the British Monarchy - the birthdate, time and place are here. [1] Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Flow of the lead

Following on from BW's comment [2], I think the lead now doesn't flow as well because it is no longer structured chronologically.

Therefore, may I suggest a re-ordering of the material in the final two paragraphs of the lead, with the addition of one or two linking sentences:

Elizabeth was educated privately at home. Her father, George VI, became King-Emperor of the British Empire in 1936. She began to undertake public duties during the Second World War, in which she served in the Auxiliary Territorial Service. After the war and Indian independence George VI's title of Emperor of India was abandoned, and the evolution of the Empire into the Commonwealth accelerated. In 1947, Elizabeth made the first of many tours around the Commonwealth, and married Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. They have four children.

In 1949, George VI became the first Head of the Commonwealth, a symbol of the free association of the independent countries comprising the Commonwealth of Nations. On his death in 1952, Elizabeth became Head of the Commonwealth, and constitutional monarch of seven independent Commonwealth countries: the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Pakistan, and Ceylon. Her coronation in 1953 was the first to be televised. During her reign, which at 72 years is one of the longest for a British monarch, she became queen of 25 other countries within the Commonwealth as they gained independence. Between 1956 and 1992, half of her realms, including South Africa, Pakistan, and Ceylon (renamed Sri Lanka), became republics.

In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis meaning horrible year, two of her sons separated, her daughter divorced, and a severe fire destroyed part of Windsor Castle. Revelations on the state of her eldest son Charles's marriage continued, and he divorced in 1996. After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, the royal family remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning, for which they were attacked in sections of the press. Elizabeth and her family returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, appearing in public and assuaging much of the public controversy. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high. Her Silver and Golden Jubilees were celebrated in 1977 and 2002 respectively, and planning for her Diamond Jubilee in 2012 is underway.

DrKiernan (talk) 16:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

This is all pretty good and very well written. I like the way it makes things more concise and accurate, especially the issue of how the Queen became head of the Commonwealth and what that implied. The last paragraph is also I think right now. I only have a small remaining issue - shall we mention that they have four children (end of the first para), Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward. Just a thought. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, i think just saying they have 4 children loos a little odd, adding their names would be useful and create a longer sentence. Id support this change over all though, it does improve the flow for the time being. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

British monarch and supreme governor

How about changing the last sentence of the first paragraph to something like: In her role as British head of state she is the titular Supreme Governor of the established Church of England. or As British monarch she is the titular Supreme Governor of the established Church of England.? This adds a link to the British monarchy page, and helps explain what a Supreme Governor is. DrKiernan (talk) 19:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems a decent enough idea. My only comment is it should be made clear that her position as Supreme Governor of the Church of England is unique to the UK. So, I'd offer something like: In her role as Britain's head of state only, she is the titular Supreme Governor of the established Church of England. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:45, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with all of that except I have a slight issue with including the word titular in it. OK, nowadays she may just go along with what the Archbishops suggests but there hasn't been any legeslation passed that limits her role as Supreme Governor so she does still have full control over The Church of England but rarely uses the powers that comes with it. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 07:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The Church of England is subject to the Parliament of the United Kingdom (the 'Queen-in-Parliament') in the same way as the secular government of the UK is subject.It may enact laws for the Church and may even disestablish it (as it did in Wales). The Head of Government, drawn from the Parliament, nominates its bishops. So I think it is fair enough to say the Sovereign is titular head, in the same way she is titular head of state. There are few laws restricting her powers of governance over the Church, true. But then there are few laws restricting her secular governance. Convention in both spheres limits her powers with the effect of law.Gazzster (talk) 09:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, but you do have to ber in mind convention does not automatically bar her in a legal precidence from using her powers over her Church so it's really like the powers are there but are only used rarly on advice that she choses to take. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Convention does actually have the force of law. The Sovereign may never act against or without his or her Parliament. 'Advice' is a respectful term. It does mean, however, that the Sovereign is bound to follow the Parliament's 'advice'. As the Church of England is subject to Parliament, the Sovereign is bound to accept the government's 'advice' in its regard. This does not of course mean the Sovereign is not legally the Supreme Governor. Gazzster (talk) 10:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I still don't understand. The current wording indicates that she is only Supreme Governor of the Church of England in England, and not elsewhere. But surely she is supreme governor of the Church of England as a whole, not just of the Church of England in England. If she isn't then who appoints the Bishop of Gibraltar and the Bishop of Man? DrKiernan (talk) 11:14, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I made a mistake there then. There was an issue over that Gibraltar's established Church allegedly wasn't The C of E (I haven't checked) But the issue is the diocise of Gibraltar not the Country Gibraltar so established church of Gibraltar doesn't apply so it is still over all the C of E. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I still don't understand. I read the current version as meaning that she is only head of the church where it is the established church and not where it isn't. How can this be? It's like saying the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church in Costa Rica, but not in France. DrKiernan (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I can't say if the Queen is head of the Church of England outside of England, but the role is certainly not attached to any of her crowns besides the British one. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Introduction comments on popularity

In the 1980s and 1990s, the private lives of their children were subject to great press attention, and contributed to increased discontent with the monarchy, which reached its peak in 1997 on the death of Diana, Princess of Wales. Since then, Elizabeth has recovered public confidence, and her personal popularity remains high.

This section in the intro feels a little weasel-worded. On reading it, it seemed to imply the monarchy and in particular the Queen were in some way unpopular in the 1980s and 90s, but have since recovered some popularity. It also suggests that this great press attention has since diminshed. I think we could easily get consensus that her popularity has actually remained largely uniform and generally high, as has press attention. There is clearly a grammatical and practical difference between media critique levelled at an individual and their overall popularity. I personally would recommend this being removed from the introduction entirely, as of all the things that can be said about the Queen's life, there are far more important points that could be made than speculative comments about popularity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.136.41 (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2010

I agree, that final paragraph of the introduction could probably do with attention. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a lot of media and book-based sourcing available for the alleged mass-discontent following Diana's death. It would be interesting to know if there is anything more "scientific" like polling for example. Loads of individual news stories out there about the Queen's popularity reaching an all-time low in various years - 2002 was one for the Observer. [3] No idea why. I think the "Queen's failing popularity" is a good fallback for editors who can't think of anything else to publish. How true any of it is - is a different matter. We've never had a vote on it. Where they have, in Australia, they voted KEEP. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 16:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Despite the barbarians and the disgraceful left wing press, thankfully there continues to be overwhelming support for the Queen and even the continuation of the monarchy. I know Yougov have done several polls on it in recent years, always showing high support. I think its useful to mention popularity in that final paragraph, although it should not mislead people to think at any stage the country came close to becoming a republic because of this "discontent" which is a very strong word. Popularity can go up and down, the current wording does make it sound like the popularity of the monarchy was on an endless decline through the 80s and 90s until it peaked in 1997 and then got better. So some form of change to that whole paragraph would be good. Its also questionable if our gutter press in Britain is so deserving of being in the introduction on an article of a monarch of 15 other realms. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

We always have to be careful not to confuse respect for our own Head of State and the Head of State of many countries with the removal of POV criticism. I speak as one who has a very high degree of admiration and affection for the Queen. That said, a number of things stand out about the Lede generally. (1) It cites very few sources currently. (2) It uses the word "discontent" and I agree that is rather an extreme POV - it might be better to use some other phrase and that needs to be critically sourced from a quality source. (3) it is rather short - it easily merits the four paras accorded to leading world figures. See for example Pope Benedict XVI which has a lot more sourcing, a more considered tone and the full four-para front salvo. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD#Citations it's generally considered that lead sections don't need to cite their sources directly - what they are presenting is a summary of the article as whole, sources are presented wehre issues are discussed in more detail in the body of the article, the main exception being if a direct quote is used in the lead, or anything that's really contentious.

OK. Although lots do, of course. All the more reason then for avoiding a rather less than considered word like "discontent". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

"Since then, Elizabeth has recovered public confidence," is probably the most problematic part of the whole paragraph, suggesting she had lost public confidence at some stage which is certainly not the case. Dunno if anyone has any ideas for writing a completely new paragraph or 2 paragraphs. But at the very least a few things in that paragraph needs rewording or snipping. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:23, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Would welcome any suggestions on a replacement for that bit BW. In the meantime, I will have a think about what the Lede currently does not say that it should. Thanks. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Australian republic referendum, 1999 result cannot be used to measure the popularity of Queen Elizabeth in Australia per se. Whilst no doubt there were some who voted in favour of a republic because of dissatisfaction with one or more members of the royal family, philosophical views on the appropriateness of a non-Australian and/or hereditary head of state were a more significant factor. The referendum was also constructed in such a fashion that if one wanted an Australian republic but not the model offered, the only option was to vote against the referendum proposal. Thus the result doesn't even reflect how many were in favour of retaining the monarchy vs establishing a republic. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 07:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Say the Republicans. :) Not that our opinions matter - it's sourced material that matters and the article reflecting different views. But don't panic - I doubt this article will be using the Australian referendum as one of it's core arguments for Her Maj'es popularity. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 08:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Sunday Times polls had 24% in favor of a republic in 1990 which had risen to 42% at the start of 1991 (Pimlott, p 534). This was followed by the annus horribilis, where the Queen herself acknowledged there was increased criticism of the monarchy. In March 1996, a MORI poll for The Independent newspaper, quoted in Pimlott, p. 578 and O'Sullivan, Jack (5 March 1996), "Watch out, the Roundheads are back" in The Independent, showed increasing republicanism over the previous 15 years, but pointed out that it was still a minority viewpoint. Immediately before the death of Diana the support for the monarchy fell to below 50% for the first time according to Alan Travis in The Guardian, (12 August 1997) "Near the end of the line?: Support for royal family falls below 50pc for first time", p. 1. The actual figures quoted were 48% for a monarchy, against 30% for a republic and 21% "don't know"s. Coverage of public discontent at the time of Diana's death is extensive (see for example Bond, p. 134; Brandreth, p. 358; Lacey, pp. 6–7; Pimlott, p. 616; Roberts, p. 98; Shawcross, p. 8). After 1997, we have the Australian referendum with a slight majority for retaining the monarchy in preference to an indirectly-elected head of state, and then three polls from 2006–07 all showing 75–80% support for Elizabeth among the British public.

This does indicate to me that republicanism rose during the 1980s and 1990s to a peak in 1997, and then subsided. DrKiernan (talk) 07:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

We need to be clear republicanism remained a minority view, even when it "peaked". I do not know if there is evidence to suggest that support for the monarchy continued to decline up until that peak, polls go up and down. It is also very problematic, misleading and wrong to say "Since then, she has recovered public confidence". She never lost "public confidence, as the peak poll shows there was not majority support for a republic and even if people support the country becoming a republic in the future, does not mean they have no public confidence in the Queen. That sentence needs to be changed.

Some good additions, how about whilst mentioning she started her duties in ww2, that she also served in the Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with ATS. I can see a way of changing:

, which reached its peak in 1997 on the death of Diana, Princess of Wales.

to something like:

. In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis, two of her sons separated and her daughter divorced. After the 1997 death of Diana, Princess of Wales, the public was dismayed by Elizabeth's seclusion at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning.

Now that we've added the Jubilees sentence, I think Since then, Elizabeth has recovered public confidence, and her personal popularity remains high. has become less important. I probably wouldn't cry if it was removed. DrKiernan (talk) 10:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

No comments? How about this then for the end of the lead:

In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis, two of her sons separated and her daughter divorced. After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, Elizabeth remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning. Public dismay at her seclusion was assuaged on Elizabeth's return to London the day before Diana's funeral. Elizabeth's personal popularity remains high. She celebrated her Golden Jubilee in 2002, and planning for her Diamond Jubilee in 2012 is underway.

We need some drafts for a new 1980s sentence or two. DrKiernan (talk) 14:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

That last was quite a good sentence and I would almost go with it. The only reservation I would have would be "public dismay at her seclusion" - there's actually quite a bit of controversy about that, with many sources alleging it was really the Murdoch press orchestrating a campaign at that point. I would prefer "her much-discussed and alleged seclusion" or some such. We should also remember we are in BLP territory here and that this was someone who had just lost the mother of her grandchildren. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes that public dismay wording could be taken out of context, i am not sure how its best to say it. I do not really think the amount of days spent at Balmoral is notable enough for the lead considering everything we are leaving out. Also if we are to mention the Queen describing 1992 as "annus horribilis" then we really need to include in brackets afterwards the meaning, as most people will not know the term (the meaning should probably be added to the 1990s section too.) Also if we are going to say that, we should mention the fire at Windsor Castle considering the speech was 4 days after the fire. This is gonna take some time to get wording for a completely new 3rd paragraph, and thats before considering if a 4th is needed lol. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The remaining in Balmoral aspect is very high profile, if only because of its inclusion in The Queen. We have an article on annus horribilis, linking to that is probably sufficient in the lead, particularly if there's a bit more of an explanation in the body. David Underdown (talk) 15:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

People should not have to click the link just to find the meaning of the term, if its going to be in the lead it should say "annus horribilis" (Latin for horrible year)

The time following Dianas death is notable enough for the intro, Im not sure we need to state the number of days they remained at Balmoral, it was not just their location and the fact they did not return to London during the period that caused problems but the lack of public statements on her death, the flag issue etc. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Good comments. It's an interesting challenge because this is a time to say something long-term and reflective in the intro about that period, when things were very heated in the media. Much has happened since then. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

What about:

Between 1992 and 1996, three of her children divorced. After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, Elizabeth was criticised for remaining in seclusion until the day before Diana's funeral. DrKiernan (talk) 19:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I liked your earlier sentence better DrKiernan, with slight mods, how about this based on your sentence:

In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis, two of her sons separated and her daughter divorced. After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, Elizabeth remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning, for which she was attacked in sections of the press. She returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, appearing in public with the Prime Minister, assuaging much of the public controversy. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high. She celebrated her Golden Jubilee in 2002, and planning for her Diamond Jubilee in 2012 is underway.

I still have some hesitations but feel this is closer. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think she appeared with the prime minister. Other than that my only other comment is minor: in versions along these lines, we have her son separating but not divorcing followed by "former daughter-in-law"; it's slightly preferable, but I agree not wholly necessary, to mention the divorce, in between the two if we keep annus horribilis. DrKiernan (talk) 10:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

At the time, there was huge media coverage of the Queen walking around looking at the flowers when she came back to London - I am trying to find stories about that on press sites, but they all seem to have disappeared into web history - I will start looking at the web archive. In my memory, Blair was with her when she did that, but perhaps I am mistaken. That was always said to be the turning point at the time. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I recall she was there with her husband, and can see photos in the biographies listed at the bottom of the article of them at the gates beside the flowers, but not the prime minister. See [4] for an example of a contemporary report. DrKiernan (talk) 11:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, sorry, this was a mistake be me. Therefore how about this ammended version:

In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis, two of her sons separated and her daughter divorced. After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, Elizabeth remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning, for which she was attacked in sections of the press. She returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, meeting the crowds and looking at the flowers and letters for Diana outside Buckingham Palace with Prince Philip, assuaging much of the public controversy. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high. She celebrated her Golden Jubilee in 2002, and planning for her Diamond Jubilee in 2012 is underway. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Instead of meeting the crowds and looking at the flowers and letters for Diana outside the palace with Prince Philip, I prefer the shorter appearing in public, so as not to overwhelm the lead with Diana and include the broadcast. Otherwise fine by me. DrKiernan (talk) 12:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, did you say you had made a change to my version now DrKiernan? I don't mind, just getting a bit confused - can you put your final proposal text, so we can take a look at that? Thanks. Nearly there! Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I still have concerns on all this. If we are to include "annus horribilis" i still think that needs to include a brief translation. "annus horribilis" (Latin for horrible year), i dont think its right to include that in the intro without one. Also if the term is used we must mention the fire at Windsor Castle, it was the fire that had happened just days before she made that speech. I still have concerns about the sentence on staying at Balmoral too, at the very least we need to add with other members of the royal family, or with Prince William and Prince Harry. At the moment the different proposals all sound like it was just the Queen that was shut off for days. The bit about attacks by some of the press is certainly more accurate and clear although again could mention it was the Queen and Royal family that were attacked, it was not just all about the Queen. I am still not entirely sure about all the changes, although i do think it is better than the present wording BritishWatcher (talk) 12:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Even if it's a link BW? We don't always do that, although I agree there is an issue about using latin terms. It was such a well-known term, it would be a shame to leave it out. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

For the introduction i do think a quick translation is needed because most people will have no clue what it means, we should not expect everyone to have to read a second article to have a basic understanding of part of the introduction on this page. From the text that follows people will think its describing it as bad, but we shouldn't make people guess. There is no point in stating her opinion of the year, if most can not understand what the specific opinion was, we could avoid a lot of confusion by simply add (latin for horrible year). BritishWatcher (talk) 12:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not keen on parenthetical statements in the lead. I think if we have a draft which everyone agrees is an improvement, then we should implement it, but continue to discuss further changes. As I understand the current draft is to replace:

In the 1980s and 1990s, the private lives of their children were subject to great press attention, and contributed to increased discontent with the monarchy, which reached its peak in 1997 on the death of Diana, Princess of Wales. Since then, Elizabeth has recovered public confidence, and her personal popularity remains high.

with

In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis, two of her sons separated, her daughter divorced, and a severe fire destroyed part of Windsor Castle. After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, the royal family remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning, for which they were attacked in sections of the press. Elizabeth and her family returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, appearing in public and assuaging much of the public controversy. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high.

This does not preclude further additions or amendments as necessary, but we would at least have addressed some of the concerns with the present text. DrKiernan (talk) 12:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

hmmm that Diana section does sound better now. The sentence on the golden jubilee should be added on to the end of the sentence on the Queens popularity, so something like.. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high, with the nation celebrating her Golden Jubilee in 2002 and plans for the 2012 Diamond jubilee underway." That just leaves the latin term if we cant say (latin for horrible year), how about "annus horribilis" meaning horrible year, two of her.... BritishWatcher (talk) 12:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

or "with millions of people throughout the commonwealth realms celebrating her Golden Jubilee in 2002." as we cant just talk of the UK and it was not just the Queen who celebrated it. Thinking about it, perhaps we could have a couple of sentences on the golden jubilee. It consisted of so many events, involving millions. More notable than the response to the death of diana in my opinion. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't planning on any changes to the final sentence of the current lead for the moment; just replacing the two sentences between "In the 1980s and 1990s..." and "...her personal popularity remains high." However, one simple way to change the last sentence would be to say "Her Golden Jubilee was celebrated..." instead of "She celebrated her Golden Jubilee..." DrKiernan (talk) 13:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with changing She celebrated to "Her Golden Jubilee was celebrated", although i do think that justifies a couple of sentences if we are going into such detail about some of the problems like 1992/1997. How do you feel about: In 1992, which Elizabeth termed her annus horribilis meaning horrible year, two of her sons.... BritishWatcher (talk) 08:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't like it! As that is insufficient grounds for its exclusion or removal, I guess I would have to live with it. DrKiernan (talk) 08:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, the new wording looks better although the intro doesnt seem to flow as well as it should stll. We may have to debate the whole intro again soon. I certainly think there is a case for expanding the mention of the Silver / Golden jubilees, giving them each another sentence to highlight what happened, rather than just saying they were celebrated. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the comments in the last paragraph and annus horribilus etc are inappropriate in an introductory paragraph. The introduction should stick to objective and neutral biographical details rather than passing comment on specific non-biographical events in her life. The subjects should be covered elsewhere in the article, but not in the introduction. Why single out this specific incident in her life ? Why not feature other events such as the death of Earl Mountbatten or the intruder at Buckingham Palace. The introduction should not try to list of specific events and stick only to basis biographical details Marlarkey (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

It is sticking to basic details - the events surrounding Diana's death are fundamental facts of her biog and not some incidental. The annus horibilis is both celebrated and explanatory and well worth mentioning, so I would defend that as well. The intro of a person as famous as the Queen can be quite lengthy - it is a huge article. I'm not sure what you mean about it not flowing as well as it should - please give a specific suggestion on how it should flow better. Thanks. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Is Elizabeth a pianist?

I recall reading once years ago that Elizabeth was an accomplished pianist, but I don't recall where I read this.

Does anyone know if this is true, and where more detail could be found? If it is true, it might be an interesting aspect of her life to add to the article.

Thanks. M.J.E. (talk) 13:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Using ask.com, all I could find with Elizabeth II and pianos was of Condelieza Rice playing for her once. If you can find any sources that suggest that HM plays the piano, feel free to add them. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk)

Name and Title

Elizabeth II has sixteen titles. However, User:Triton Rocker has recently twice inserted into this article only her title in the UK. The second time he gave the reasoning "'of the UK' is her primary claim to notability." I certainly wasn't aware that a part of one of her titles was what made her notable. Even if what was actually meant by "of the UK" was "being Queen of the UK", she's notable where I live for being Queen of Canada, as I'm sure she's notable in other countries for being their queen. The neutral wording that avoided controversially highlighting one nation's title over another has stood for some time. I see no reason at all to change it now to give her UK title prominence. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 05:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I suppose this edit was to double as a response to my comment above. If so, the change is still a step backwards: not only does the Queen's UK title remain in place of prominence by being listed first, but also as the only one listed in full; the rest are merely fragments of her full and official titles. Besides being slanted and incorrect, the detail is totally unnecessary, given that the proper facts are given more fully at the sister article List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 06:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Do we really need the full style? All the detail is in the daughter article. I'm not sure nicknames like "missis kwin" are pertinent enough for the main article either. DrKiernan (talk) 09:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I certainly believe that giving undue weight to her UK title over other titles is POV. Bjmullan (talk) 09:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I've restored the status-quo. If Triton Rocker has concerns with it, I hope he'll bring them here; I've certainly no idea what motivated his changes. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

She's recognized as monarch of the UK more often then monarch of sixteen, though. GoodDay (talk) 13:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

That might be the case in the UK but in Canada the would probably not be true. Given undue to her UK title is POV. Bjmullan (talk) 13:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Internationally, she recognized more as 'of the UK'. You never hear her described outside of Canada, as Queen of Canada, Canadian monarch etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 14:01, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Internationally, she's casually recognised more as "of England." (And, yes, she has been described outside of Canada as Queen of Canada; journalists do get it right, sometimes.) --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

..of England (though erroneous), is meant by the less informed as ..of the United Kingdom, not ..of Canada, or ..of Australia, or ..of New Zealand etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 14:55, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

And how are we to be guided by these erroneous misconceptions? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not claiming those internationals are correct. GoodDay (talk) 15:11, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Miesianiacal, I appreciate the "Monarchy of Canada" is one of your things and you want to make a big issue of the Canadian-ness of Elizabeth II. Putting your personal interest aside, the bottomline is, Elizabeth would not be the Queen of Canada if she was not the Monarch of the United Kingdom. Hence her primary title is notable enough for inclusion in the primary topic about her. The Monarchy of the UK/England goes back a lot longer than the history of Canada,

You are perfectly intelligent enough to get that. It is a false and misleading argument to bring up "of England".

Wonderfully, for a change, I actually agree with GoodDay on what they say. Unfortunately, a large proportion of uneducated non-British people do mistake England and English for UK and British. It is plainly wrong and something we rebuke them for. But an encyclopedia is mean to reflect what is correct. The inclusion was buried away in a minor section of the topic and in no way imbalances it.

And, for the record, I actually support GoodDay further and hope that Canada frees itself of the last vestiges of yoke of its colonial past resolving this otherwise. --Triton Rocker (talk) 23:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of one's personal views about Canada's monarchy, facts are still facts. Queen Elizabeth II is legally the head of state of 16 different yet equal countries; it is contrary to goal of an encyclopedia of advancing knowledge to settle with a simplified presentation of a complex subject. Jagislaqroo (talk) 23:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

No one is disputing that. It is included in the lead. All I argue is that the primary and historical title, or "style" if you wish which gives her the authority over the other titles, is also include in the body of the topic. It is hard to argue again rationally and certainly more notable than much of the minutiae included.

Considering the similarity of your interests to MIESIANIACAL, regarding the 'Monarchist League of Canada' et al [5], can I ask you both not to use this topic for your own political soapbox?

Yes, we know she is Canada's Queen. There is no disputing or removing of it. No, not all countries are equal. I think it is fair to consider that the UK has a slightly more influential history than, say, Tuvalu. --Triton Rocker (talk) 01:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Triton, trying to win by imagining mendacious motives for your opponents will get you nowhere; anyone could turn the same tactic on you by labelling you a pro-British POV pusher (and the accusation would have more validity, seeing as nobody else is arguing for any one title to be highlighted over the others). Have a read of WP:AGF.

Now, if you've some proof that either the long established equality of the realms or WP:NPOV has been overturned, please direct us to it. Otherwise, any perception of primacy or "authority" (whatever that means in this context) amongst the titles is pure POV and should be avoided at all costs. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 03:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

If I'm not allowed to have my monarchist beliefs influence my Wikipedia editing, then you ought to reconsider your contributions to this article because you're obviously trying to muddle the fact that Canada is a monarchy. Jagislaqroo (talk) 05:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Triton Rocker you have been warned again about your attacks on other editors motives by Cailil, please assume good faith. For the record it was me (who has never been to Canada) that first use it as an example in this particular discussion. Bjmullan (talk) 16:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Let us continue on the discussion of both her name and the repeated removal of her primary title in the UK.

Now, The Royal Household states very clearly on 'The Official Website of the British Monarchy' her current position:

"What’s The Queen’s full name?"

"A. The Queen was christened Elizabeth Alexandra Mary of York"

It also explains the history of the usage of "Windsor" or "of Windsor" which Elizabeth reconfirmed herself in 1952.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/TheRoyalFamilyname/Overview.aspx

http://www.royal.gov.uk/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/20mostaskedquestions.aspx

• To put it plainly, who are we to disagree or know better than The Royal Household?
• Does it truly diminish Elizabeth's status in Canada to have the UK title listed?

Dr Keirnan, if you would permit me to ask a personal question of you, I would like to. --Triton Rocker (talk) 08:57, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

As I've already said[6], the royal household disagrees with itself "She was christened Elizabeth Alexandra Mary". There are also plenty of other sources that disagree with your addition: What is the Queen's full name: A. Elizabeth Alexandra Mary In full: Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Christened Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor. DrKiernan (talk) 09:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't contradict itself, it sometimes leaves out the "of York" in some narrative contexts. I think it makes sense to put the full name per the christening (and I assume the birth certificate) in the article at this point. Its full information, it doesn't confuse anyone. --Snowded ^TALK 09:36, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

People are not christened with their surnames or ducal titles; they are christened with their Christian names, which is why they are called Christian names. There are literally dozens of sources that say she was christened "Elizabeth Alexandra Mary" and there is only one, which is self-contradictory, that says she was christened "Elizabeth Alexandra Mary of York". That was her style at birth, it is not her surname or her Christian name. DrKiernan (talk) 09:53, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Elizabeth Alexandra Mary is her christian name. As for the title? though I have no probs with showing Queen of the United Kingdom? one must remember this is Liz's biography page, not the British monarchy page. GoodDay (talk) 13:09, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Major changes to the lede without discussion

I have just noticed the user Triton Rocker has cut out a large portion of the last paragraph in the lede without any discussion here first (see here). It now reads like a press release from the palace. I believe that the areas covered are important and should be re-instated. I also think that as with most high profile articles NO changes should be made to the lede without first getting consensus at the talk page. Bjmullan (talk) 07:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Well i dont agree with all of the change he made, especially as it removed the english meaning of that latin term, so the previous wording was better. Although i too still dislike this "After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, the royal family remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning, for which they were attacked in sections of the press. Elizabeth and her family returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, appearing in public and assuaging much of the public controversy. " If we are to go into such detail about a negative incident, then the jubilees should be explained in more detailing, mentioning millions throughout the commonwealth realms were involved. BritishWatcher (talk) 07:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the addition of "of York" makes it look as though that is her surname, which it isn't. We shouldn't mislead readers into thinking that is her name. DrKiernan (talk) 09:17, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I support removing "of York" although the source does state it. Would be safer if we could find a second source which doesnt mention of York, then delete it. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

"The Princess was named "Elizabeth Alexandra Mary" [7] is one. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Before I say anything, let me just be clear about my relationship with Bjmullan. Brendan is one of the Irish editors currently having a difficult time with the use of the term "British Isles" on the Wikipedia, which I oppose the being dragged into a politicised nationalist debate. He is likely to act in a provocative manner towards any edits I make and revert then, whether there is sense in it or not, merely in an attempt to provoke me, which he then has the habit of reporting elsewhere in an attempt to have me blocked.

I made sure everything was included in the 1992 section. I even added more and references, and highlighted the two worst set of events with headings --- which Dr Kiernan then removed. I have no idea why, they are two of the most notable defining events of her life in recent years. "Annus Horribilis" was defined in the Annus Horribilis section as with the Silver and Golden Jubilee.

• Why should all Annus Horribilis be duplicated?
• Why should such a long section be in the lead?

Future events should not be included ("Diamond Jubileein 2012 is underway").

Namewise, you have a choice between 'of Windsor', the family name which the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas chose it in 1917, or 'of York', which is what the official website of the British Monarchy says (or perhaps 'Windsor' or 'of the House of Windsor'). I am happy enough with any of them (actually I would have chosen plain 'Windsor' but Royal Houses do not work that way). Therefore, I suggest that the official website of the British Monarchy trumps other references. The reason for it is that her father King George VI was then the Duke of York.

The reference you use, BW, is accurate but not a complete. It is merely a passing sentence. If you look at a British Birth Certificate, in the second column (2) one's Christian names are written. In Elizabeth's case, those were "Elizabeth Alexandra Mary". No one's family name is written in that column. It goes after the fathers That does not mean it is her full name. --Triton Rocker (talk) 11:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I would be less concerned about the name issue if we put (christened: Elizabeth Alexandra Mary of York) or something like that. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The royal website also says she was christened Elizabeth Alexandra Mary [8], and that "Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V"[9]. So, as an unmarried female descendant of George V at birth, her surname then was Windsor. DrKiernan (talk) 09:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The diamond jubilee certainly needs to be mentioned, the planning is underway. A whole article on London 2012 exists, but its still a future event. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, everything Triton Rocker did should be undone. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I have got to agree with you Miesianiacal. Bjmullan (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I removed one heading because it left a very short paragraph in one section; short sections should be merged. I removed one reference because it was duplicated at the end of the sentence anyway; I didn't see any point in having it in the same sentence twice.

The lead should summarise the article, excluding Diana from the lead clearly does not adequately summarise the article or the Queen's life.

I agree with others that the planning for the jubilee isn't a future event: it's happening now. DrKiernan (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, Dr Kiernan. There is a difference between summarise and repeat. My question is why are we almost entirely repeating it? The version I offered a summarised version of it and, indeed, extended the reportage and referencing of it in its own clearly titled section.

The section title you removed had two paragraphs and one sentence. Perfectly long enough for a sub-section, long enough as others, and notable enough too. The "Annus Horribilis" has certainly entered the collective memory of her. Arguably, it was the Queen who brought into popular use --- which is why I think we should featured.

What you refer to as "a very short paragraph", and an excuse for removing the title, was actually only one additional line in the section, "During an October state visit ... Windsor Castle suffered severe fire damage."

• Why not just merge that with the paragraph above it instead? (I prefer well spaced, clearly titled topics, when you say "should" you are really only stating your preference.

I have no objection to a simple mention of Diana, for example, "Her reign was for a short period overshadowed by events relating to the deceased Diana Spencer/Princess of Wales". Merely the repetition of an entire section.

My feeling is the inclusion of that total section in the lead is more about individuals who would want to rub it in her face than its actual importance.

I am sorry but I cannot regard anything Bjmullan will say here as serious or consequential as it is merely part of a wider campaign against me which he is involved in relating to the British Isles naming issue. He is going to argue emerald green to my white regardless of what the issue is. MIESIANIACAL merely wants to assert some point about her Canadian role which is noted.

A future plan is notable enough for a lead. Unlike the Olympics, which involves many individuals and will happen, her next Jubilee depends on just one person surviving and so we don't know it will. --Triton Rocker (talk) 23:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

What I refer to as "a very short paragraph" was the paragraph immediately preceding the removed title, which was a section of two sentences. DrKiernan (talk) 07:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Well i disagree on the section title and also the Diamond jubilee. However i do share concerns about the Diana sentences in the introduction as i said at the time. But the wording in the intro now is far better than it was prior to the changes. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:38, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

a) On what grounds do you disagree with the section title?

b) On what ground do both of you support wholescale duplication and the inclusion of the duplication in the lead?

c) Do you consider that the Queen's Annus comment is not notable, it was she, after all, who introduced the term into common use ( and merging the 3 sentences make for a fair enough sized paragraph)?

d) I see Elizabeth's UK style appears to have disappeared again. What is the rational for that?

As it is her status within the United Kingdom that gives her her status within the Commonwealth and Dependencies, is it not more worthy to mention it rather than much of the rest of the minutiae?

Dr Kiernan, may I caution you? Many of the 'shoulds' you mention really boil to personal preferences on your own behalf and so perhaps might be better diluted to 'coulds' or 'perhaps', as other problems arise that others might prioritise, e.g. displacing paragraphs and leaving short sentences below them. (The rules of paper print cannot always apply to the internet). --Triton Rocker (talk) 08:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I find myself agreeing with Triton in respect of (i) the full referenced christened name should be given (adding christened as a prefix might help) and (ii) the Annus episode in the current version does appear airbrushed. --Snowded ^TALK 09:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand: it's Triton that wants to airbrush Diana from the lead, and the annus episode is still in the article, as it has been for some long while, and the full christened name is given. DrKiernan (talk) 09:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I just finished reading the article and I'd suggest, after the first paragraph, to mention she succeeded her father, and that Charles is her heir apparent, and then mention something that she is currently doing. But after that, I'd go straight to the "Early life" and then let the article tell all the rest of the story about her. And I don't think Diana needs to be mentioned in the lead at all. The article is about Elizabeth, and the woman's been on the throne for how long now? Mentioning Diana straight off seems WP:UNDUE to me for the lead. And mentioning the Queen's education in the lead, seems off to me, as well. I know it's very British to ask about ones school ties, but I don't think the Queen needs to impress with school credentials, etc. Who is she competing with, really?Malke 2010 (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Peer review/Elizabeth II/archive1 and Talk:Elizabeth II of the United_Kingdom/GA2 both established that the lead should summarise the whole article per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section). The lead doesn't do that if the entire span of Elizabeth's life is excluded. DrKiernan (talk) 21:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello, DrKiernan. Well that may be about the GA thing, but nothing's written in stone on Wikipedia. Just hear me out. After that first paragraph, which is grand btw, I'd start off by saying this:

"She ascended to the throne following the death of her father, George VI, who became King-Emperor of the British Empire in 1936. The Queen's son, HRH Charles, Prince of Wales, is her heir apparent. The Queen recently celebrated her nth year on the throne."

Then straight to the "Early life." This article is about one of the most fascinating and accomplished woman on the planet and who seems to never have put a foot wrong. Her life is too big to try and summarize it in the lead. That's the problem. Just lay down the bread crumbs in the lead and the reader will follow into the story.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I don't know why the second to third paragraphs are in the lead. They deal with autobiographical details that are discussed further on anyway. Why not keep only the first para in the lead?Gazzster (talk)

(ec)Exactly. I don't think the summary lead style requires every bit be mentioned. I think the mention of Diana is undue given the overall span of Elizabeth's life. A good summary doesn't have to include details. It should just mention the big highlights of Elizabeth's life/reign. Or just who she is. All the other information could wait for the appropriate sections later on.Malke 2010 (talk) 23:51, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Well i do agree with concerns about the Diana mention in the introduction. The bit about them staying at Balmoral for days just does not seem needed for the introduction. I dont mind about the education bit, although it does look a little out of place with the sentence there. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, all the Diana references are out of place there.Malke 2010 (talk) 00:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

suggestion for lead

I don't normally edit here, but I'd like to suggest this:

• keep the first paragragh, it's very good.
• delete the others
• Replace with something like this:

"Elizabeth ascended the throne at the death of her father, George VI, in the small hours of 6 February 1952. At the time of the King’s death, Elizabeth was on a royal tour in Kenya with her husband Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh. As per royal protocol, the Queen’s coronation took place after a year of official mourning, and she was crowned Queen on 2 June 1953. Her coronation marked a precedent as the first to be broadcast on television. It was seen by millions of people around the world. Currently, her son Charles, Prince of Wales, is her heir apparent, followed by her grandsons, the Princes William and Harry. Elizabeth is the second longest serving Monarch after Queen Victoria who reigned for 64 years. The Queen celebrated her Silver and Golden Jubilees in 1977 and 2002 respectively. Planning for her Diamond Jubilee, to mark 60 years on the throne in 2012, is underway."

• Cut all the last paragraph entirely.
• Also, some bit about George VI and the end of the India thing should also be mentioned, as well as the bit about the rules changing regarding the succession of the first born regardless of sex.
• And then get straight into the "Early life." Malke 2010 (talk) 06:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of whitewashing history in this way, and your suggestion contains errors. There is no change in the succession, and she is not the second longest serving monarch. I do not object to a reduction of Diana: indeed, I already suggested it above, but WP:LEAD is clear. The lead should comply with the guideline: it should summarise the content of the entire article, including any notable controversies. DrKiernan (talk) 06:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not clear why, Malke, if you concur that she is such an important figure, etc, you want to reduce the intro to a single paragraph? Surely there is scope in such a big article to have a reasonably comprehensive introduction? As for Diana, some of the editors here must be amongst the very few remaining people in the world who do not think "Diana" when they think "QE2". Wikipedia is for the masses you know, as well as the educated elite. Diana and the annus horibilis are in because they are key parts of the recent "story". Why shouldn't this be in the intro? I would also be interested to know what Snowded considers to be "airbrushed" about the annus part? That's been discussed over and over here if you go back in the archives. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say a single paragraph. I was thinking two paras, but obviously there could be more. My suggestion for two was because Elizabeth has been on the throne for nearly 60 years. The lede would have to be half the size of the article. The mention of Diana seems WP:UNDUE. It's out of proportion there. Certainly the average reader has heard of Diana, but does all that belong in a lede about the Queen? Maybe it would be there for Diana or Charles' articles, which I haven't seen. I certainly didn't intend a 'whitewash.'

Sorry if I got that bit about the primogeniture wrong but I recall reading about it and thought it had been done. I'll check again. The point I was making is that the Queen has been on the throne for nearly 60 years and in that time she's lived through so much that a comprehensive intro is unrealistic. Telling the reader who the Queen is, how she got there, and then moving into the article seems more realistic. And I don't believe that when people hear QEII they think Diana.

I think they have reminders of Diana when they see her children, William and Harry, and when they hear/see Charles and Camilla, but not QEII. The royal family taking a week to come down to London for the funeral seemed to be more about the newspaper editors wanting to sell newspapers. Doesn't it take about a week to move the royal household from castle to palace? If you feel that a criticism is necessary in the intro, you might want to consider mentioning that when a Pan Am jet was blown out of the skies over Lockerbie Scotland, the Queen, staying at the nearby Balmoral Castle, didn't come to comfort her subjects, she sent her son, Prince Andrew.

Maybe they don't want to make a precedent for every thing that happens in the world. Balmoral is her off-duty bit. If she breaks camp every time something happens in the world, then the first time she doesn't, that becomes a bigger thing. Why send a Queen when a Prince will do instead?Malke 2010 (talk) 14:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

At the moment, the first para tells us who she is and the remaining three give a very brief, almost terse, summary of her life. Frankly I think it would be daft if we didn't mention Diana and the Annus Horribilis in that. I can't think of any significant biog that wouldn't give those things top billing. Come up with something specific by way of a revision and we can comment, but at the moment, I'm unconvinced those two things should come out. The Balmoral stay is pretty famous but that's more problematical and could be in or out. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, certainly the annus horribilis is notable, with the Diana/Charles, Windsor fire, etc., but the Balmoral thing is not. That really does seem like newspaper editors seizing on a chance to make money and a new PM seeing a political opportunity and taking it. Mention of Diana needs to be in proportion to the annus horribilis and I'd suggest with no mention of Balmoral.Malke 2010 (talk) 14:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

So we need to try and trim down these sentences..
"After the 1997 death of her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, the royal family remained at Balmoral Castle for five days at a time of national mourning, for which they were attacked in sections of the press. Elizabeth and her family returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, appearing in public and assuaging much of the public controversy. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high"
So maybe something like..
"The following year , Princess Diana died in Paris and the initial response of the royal family was to seek seclusion from the media, which caused some controversy in the press at the time". BritishWatcher (talk) 10:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, put it in after the mention of the divorce, that sounds better. And maybe rather than the Royal Family's causing the controversy in the press, the seclusion caused a critical reaction from the press. Because it did, they had editorials, and they put out polls, etc. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

so something like.. "The following year , Princess Diana died in a car crash in Paris, the initial response of the royal family was to seek seclusion from the media, which led to a critical reaction in the press at the time". Im not fussed about the exact wording, just along those lines seems more reasonable than mentioning the days at Balmoral in the intro. Anyone else have thoughts on this? BritishWatcher (talk) 10:30, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The sentence has to introduce Diana, as she is not mentioned previously, so I would rework your wording to something like, The following year, her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, died in a car crash in Paris, and the initial response of the royal family—to seek seclusion from the media—drew criticism in sections of the press.

I'm not especially wedded to the two sentences that look likely to be dropped (Elizabeth and her family returned to London the day before Diana's funeral, appearing in public and assuaging much of the public controversy. Elizabeth's personal popularity has since remained high.) but neither do I particularly see why they should both be removed. I do not agree that the length of the lead is a problem, though I understand the other criticisms of these sentences. One or other of these sentences, or ones similar to them, can act as a link to the end sentence. If we remove them, then it becomes "...sections of the press. Her Silver Jubilee...", so the sentences don't flow well from one to the other. In terms of prose, I would prefer to link them with a sentence that naturally joins the two topics, such as her "popular appeal". Can concerns be addressed by dropping the longer sentence on Diana's funeral but keeping the other one, or something similar to it? DrKiernan (talk) 19:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Charles and Diana's separation would be in the annus horribilus, so Diana would already be mentioned. Then it could go into, "A year after her divorce from Charles, Diana died in a Paris car accident. The media criticized the royal family's week of seclusion prior to the funeral."Malke 2010 (talk) 20:15, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

How do you propose re-wording the annus horribilis sentence to include Diana's name? DrKiernan (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd say something like this:

"Marking the 40th anniversary of her Accession to the throne on 24 November 1992, Elizabeth made an address to the Guildhall in which she called 1992 an "Annus Horribilis." During that year, Elizabeth's three oldest children, Charles, Prince of Wales, Andrew, Duke of York, and Anne, the Princess Royal, were beset by marital troubles and scandals including the publication of a book by Andrew Morton entitled, "Diana: My True Story," referring to Diana, the Princess of Wales. Four days before she gave the speech, the Queen's home, Windsor Castle was seriously damaged by fire. By December of that year, it was announced that Charles and Diana had formally separated. They divorced in 1996. In 1997, Diana died in a Paris car accident. The media criticized the royal family's week of seclusion prior to the funeral."Malke 2010 (talk) 00:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Kiernan: I rewrote the whole paragraph, so what I've got above there would be replacing the entire paragraph, not just one sentence. :) Malke 2010 (talk) 20:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I think we're talking at cross-purposes: that's way too long and detailed for the lead. It isn't suitable for the main part of the article either because it cuts out too much: Dresden, income tax, the lawsuit, the quote from the speech, the consultation with others, the continuing revelations, and the details of the week of Diana's death. DrKiernan (talk) 07:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

"The following year, her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, died in a car crash in Paris, and the initial response of the royal family—to seek seclusion from the media—drew criticism in sections of the press." or something like that is fine with me. Although id prefer if we could avoid the — s in the intro. Perhaps, "response of the royal family, that was to see seclusion from the media, drew criticism in sections of the press". I dont know what the best grammar is for the sentence, but those lines just look strange in sentences for me anyway. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

"The following year, her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, died in a car crash in Paris. The media criticized the royal family for remaining in seclusion in the week prior to the funeral."Malke 2010 (talk) 14:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Im fine with something like that although it does seem odd to go from that sentence to the bit about the Queen being popular since. Need something in between that i think although im not sure what. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Any thoughts/complaints/suggestions for: The following year, her former daughter-in-law Diana, Princess of Wales, died in a car crash in Paris. The media criticized the royal family for remaining in seclusion in the days before Diana's funeral, but Elizabeth's personal popularity rebounded once she had appeared in public. DrKiernan (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds much better than the present wording in the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

although maybe add "and has remained high since." to that sentence, so we do not need a single short sentence saying "Elizabeth's popularity has remained high since". BritishWatcher (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

DrKiernan, sounds good. I wouldn't add in 'remained high since.' Malke 2010 (talk) 18:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

1897?

The section "Golden Jubilee and beyond" states; "in 1897. Elizabeth could become the longest-lived British head of state." Really? That would be some feat, though I have no idea how she intends to achieve it! --Wintonian (talk) 17:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you may have misread that. From what I see, that 1897 was talking about when Queen Victoria celebrated her Diamond Jubilee and was just dumped in the middle of the section about Queen Elizabeth's Jubilee. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 20:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there was a comma and fullstop there, but it did read a little clumsily - I've shortened and hopefully clarified it, hope the new version works. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Heiress Presumptive - Edward

"In 1936, when her grandfather, the King, died and her uncle Edward succeeded, she became second in line to the throne after her father."

I believe it should say, "...and her uncle Edward seceded..." She succeeded after her uncle seceded.Jkenby (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Er, seceded? That's what bits of states do, not individual people. Maybe you're getting confused with Edward VIII's abdication? Let's get some facts straight here. When George V (her grandfather) died in 1936, Edward VIII became king. At the time he was expected to marry and have legitimate children in due course, but for the time being he was unmarried and childless. The heir was his brother Bertie. Elizabeth, being Bertie's elder daughter, was 2nd in line. End of story. The sentence as it stands is 100% correct.

What happened later changed things quite a lot. Bertie may have been 1st in line but was still never expected to succeed to the throne, because it was assumed Edward would marry and produce progeny, pushing Bertie down the list. But Edward VIII abdicated; Bertie became King George VI; and Elizabeth became heiress presumptive and later Queen. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:08, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

British Monarchy page on Facebook

In case this is relevant: "Queen to launch British Monarchy page on Facebook". BBC. November 7, 2011. Retrieved November 7, 2011. --Dan Dassow (talk) 19:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Facebook

This is ridiculous to say the least. You really can not let this go on for any longer. I am sorry but the Queen does not have facebook at least not the one I happen to come upon which is most distressing. Please remove yourself from such element or make your statement much clearer for those that actually wish to be interested in your life and not those that wish to make is disgusting with their comments OH QUEEN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.4.183.136 (talk) 07:21, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

QEII

Why does QEII redirect here? To me at least, that abbreviation refers to the ship.

That would be QE2. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:57, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 64.7.156.181, 18 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

Broken Link. Henrietta Hodgson should point to Henrietta Mildred Hodgson

Not sure why this isn't an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Someone should try that one day 64.7.156.181 (talk) 14:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

64.7.156.181 (talk) 14:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Done Created redirect. -Atmoz (talk) 15:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 216.8.164.139, 22 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Re: Queen Elizabeth II; the reference to her as the "third longest serving British Monarch" after "Richard Cromwell" should read "George III".

216.8.164.139 (talk) 05:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Done Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

George III was 81 at death. Cromwell was 85. DrKiernan (talk) 08:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In that case the paragraph needs re-writing to make it clear that Cromwell was not ruling at the time of his death. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 07:04, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Worthy of mention? Currencies with the Queen's image?

Is it worthy of mention or list the currencies of the world that depict the image of HRM Queen Elizabeth II? I believe she's on the Bermuda dollar, and also the Eastern Caribbean dollar. ref Are there others? CaribDigita (talk) 04:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I think we have enough lists in the article already, and that it would not add particularly pertinent information. DrKiernan (talk) 09:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit Request

{{Edit semi-protected}}

Shouldn't the line under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_ii#Public_perception_and_character that reads:

To many of us, our beliefs are of fundamental importance. For me the teachings of Christ and my own personal accountability before God provide a framework in which I try to lead my life. I, like so many of you, have drawn great comfort in difficult times from Christ's words and example.

have quotation marks? It's really bugging me.

It's supposed to be formatted as a blockquote per Template:quote. So both sides are supposed to be indented, in lieu of quotation marks. The problem was that the overlap with the horseriding picture stopped it from indenting properly. I've moved the picture and filled out the template so that she's explicitly attributed immediately below the text. Does it look ok to you now? Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 15:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Yes it's much better, thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super311 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Why does the queen have 2 religions

How can she follow both the Church of England and the Church of Scotland? Or is it that she is the monarch and it's similar to having two birthdays? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.125.179 (talk) 18:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

It is explained in the public perceptions section - she worhsips at both Churches. They are both forms of protestant christianity with some common history so in practical terms are reasonably similar

The two churches are basically the same. Its just that the Church of England is for England and the Church of Scotland is for Scotland. In the Queen's role as head of state of both nations she is the leader of the established church in each and the head of the national religion of her other realms. This doesnt mean she has multiple religions, even if the churches of England and Scotland believed in different things from each other, which they dont, it just means she leads the nation's national religion. The Queen's own personal religion is totally separate; if the Queen was a Jew, she would still be leader of the Churches of Scotland and England & her other realms becuase that is the position as set out in law. I personaly think that religion should be totally separated from government and the monarchy because it is a bit misleading for her to be head of multiple congregations or faiths and her people may not all follow the one she is head of in that country eg Muslims living in England would obviously not follow the Church of England, and many people also do not have a religion. It all dates from the days when the monarch ruled just Britain and therefore the Protestant sister churches of England and Scotland, which the majority of the population at that time did follow. Nocrowx (talk) 12:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this is not quite right. The Queen is the Head of the Church of England which is the established church in England. The Queen is NOT the Head of the Church of Scotland. In common with the Church of Wales and the Church of Ireland, the Church of Scotland is "disestablished" and the Monarch plays no role whatsoever in this church. However, all these churches are in communion with the Anglican faith, so she may worship in any of these churches, or any other church overseas which is linked to the Anglican worldwide Communion, of which the Church of England is a member.

Finally, the Queen's 'personal religion' is not 'separate'. As laid down by Act of Parliament the Monarch must follow the rites of the Church of England in accordance with her role as the Head and Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Although the Act specifically mentions and exludes Roman Catholicism, by inference all religions except the rites of the Church of England are only acceptable to the accession and continuance of the reigning Monarch.

Ds1994 (talk) 20:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The Church of Scotland isn't Anglican. It's the Episcopal Church of Scotland that is part of the Anglican Communion. DrKiernan (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

British tax payers have to pay for the Queen

So why is the United Kingdom just listed as "one of the 16 commonwealth realms"? I don't think any of the other commonwealth nation's citizens pay for the queen, so if the UK has to pay for her, it should say she is Queen of the UK first and then the commonwealth! Voucherman (talk) 20:29, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The other Commonwealth realms pay for their queen. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:38, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I thought other commonwealth realms only pay when the Queen visits them? Like state visits? British tax payers pay year round, something like 60p. And according to the Queens official website:

"The Queen is Head of State of the UK and 15 other Commonwealth realms."

http://www.royal.gov.uk/HMTheQueen/HMTheQueen.aspx Voucherman (talk) 21:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

@Voucherman - That's my understanding. No tax money from commonwealth countries goes to the monarch. NickCT (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

There's no difference between the UK and the other Commonwealth realms in this regard; each pays for its crown, including the royal residences, the salaries, security, and travel costs of the sovereign's representatives, and, obviously, whatever's required by the Queen in the exercise of her duties as queen of that realm. For the latter, Elizabeth draws more often from her UK tax coffer, since she's more frequently engaged with her British realm, but neither that, nor the unsurprising fact that her British website mentions Britain separately from the other realms, makes her more queen of one place than queen of another. Please review the archives to see that this debate has been run through a hundred times before. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:49, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

That seems like a slightly perverse way to look at things. I mean, the bottom line is that there are no regular tax monies going from the commonwealth to the crown, as there are from British tax payers. I think we have fantasy landers trying to push a POV here. The days of knights and nobles are over ladies. Get used to it.... NickCT (talk) 22:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

British taxpayers pay for the British Crown. They do not pay for the Crown of Australia, Jamaica, Tuvalu, Canada, or any other Commonwealth realm. Also, please familiarise yourself with WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't each realm (outside of the UK pay for their personal Governor-General) instead? While the UK pays for the Queen directly as they have no GG? CaribDigita (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Not instead, no. In addition to. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

According to this article the British taxpayer pays 69p per person, to subsidize the whole of the Royal Family

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-family-costs-each-taxpayer-69p-a-year-1723735.html

Which surely means the monarchy would not exist without the British taxpayer, in any country. Voucherman (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

"unsurprising fact that her British website mentions Britain separately from the other realms"

She only has one website as far as I know, which is the one I linked to. Voucherman (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Why does the total cost of the British monarchy to the British taxpayer indicate that the residents of the non-British realms pay nothing for their own monarchies? I'm not eager to put forward this article because it tries to make a scandal out of nothing, but from it: "[T]he monarchy costs Canadians only $1.53 per capita each year, about the price of a large cup of joe at Tim Hortons. But in fact, Canadians are now paying more per capita to support the Queen than the British are."[10] Here is the MLC's calculations for the cost of the Canadian Crown: [11]. As I said: British taxpayers pay for the British Crown. They do not pay for the Crown of Australia, Jamaica, Tuvalu, Canada, or any other Commonwealth realm. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:49, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

@Ħ - Apologies for my earlier comments. They were not meant to inflame. I was merely suggesting that the days of Kings and Queens are sorta long gone. They were a romantic notion though, and I can understand their appeal. You may, however, find there are better outlets than WP for romanticizing over the days of yore. Role playing games like Dungeons & Dragons might peak peak your fancy. You might also want to take a look at renaissance fairs in your area.

As it stands the lede desperately needs to be revised to deemphasize and remove the WP:UNDUE weight given to EII's role as head of the commonwealth nations. Listing the commonwealth countries in the WP:LEAD borders on the ridiculous. NickCT (talk) 16:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The existence of a good number of monarchs around the world shows your observation about the days of kings and queens to be inaccurate. Further, the lead of this article doesn't list the countries of the Commonwealth except for the 16 Elizabeth is queen of, which seems entirely apt. Nor does its mention of Elizabeth's role as Head of the Commonwealth extend beyond half of a single sentence; again, relevant and appropriate. Your passive aggressive attacks are bad enough, but you might at least look a little less silly doing so if you got your facts straight before hand. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:09, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

You confuse existence with relevance.

Re "except for the 16 Elizabeth is queen of, which seems entirely apt" - From Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) " The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. " (bolding for emphasis) and "The first paragraph should define the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being overly specific."

Re "Your passive aggressive attacks are bad enough" - Hey just suggestions dude. But really, mate. It looks like fun. You'd probably enjoy.

Regardless, I'm sure you get you get my point and I doubt you're terribly open to reasoned argument on this matter. So we should probably cease this conversation and allow other editors to chime in. I would note however that the general tone of the comments above does not support your POV. NickCT (talk) 17:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Your comment about the days of kings and queens made no reference to relevance; you simply said those days are "sorta long gone". Reality indicates otherwise. If you meant monarchs are no longer relevant, you should have said "the days when kings and queens had relevance are sorta long gone." Even then, however, the claim would be rendered incorrect by the fact that there are countries around the world that have at the heart of their respective systems of government a monarch.

Thanks for quoting WP:LEAD; it affirms to me that the lead of this article follows the guideline, neutrally summarising the facts about who Elizabeth II is and what makes her notable. If, however, you've a reasoned argument that outlines how the lead violates the guideline, please present it. Thus far, it's been little more than your personal opinions on the role of monarchs in the modern world, factually inaccurate statements about funding for the monarchies of the non-British realms, complaints about imaginary lead content, personal attacks, and a self-serving misrepresentation of this debate. The only thing that can be gleaned from your comments is that you disapprove of the mention of Elizabeth's position as Head of the Commonwealth and the list of the countries of which she's monarch. Are you suggesting these elements should simply be deleted? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

re "Are you suggesting these elements should simply be deleted?" - Not at all. Suggesting it be pared down and the emphasis on commonwealth be removed. I think the entire first paragraph could be rewritten to -

“ Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary, born 21 April 1926)is the queen regnant of the United Kingdom and 15 other independent Commonwealth realms. She is also the figurehead of the 54-member Commonwealth of Nations and, as the British monarch, she is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. ”

Simplier, less WP:UNDUE emphasis on the Commonwealth realms. Less WP:PEACOCK.NickCT (talk) 18:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Simpler, yes. But it is counterfactual and violates WP:NPOV by highlighting the UK above the other countries of which EIIR is equally queen; "queen regnant of the United Kingdom and 15 other independent Commonwealth realms" has been suggested before and rejected by consensus for the reasons I just gave.

I suspect that you're not realising the difference between the Commonwealth of Nations and Elizabeth's place at its head and the Commonwealth realms and Elizabeth's place as queen of each. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:56, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

re"the UK above the other countries of which EIIR is equally queen" - WP:OR? As someone who's lived in several Commonwealth Realms I can say that as little relevance as the Queen has in the United Kingdom she has even less in Commonwealth Realms. Additionally the symbolic political powers she is afforded outside the UK vary realm to realm suggesting her irrelevance varies country to country.

re"I suspect that you're not realising the difference" - Oh, I'm realizing alright. NickCT (talk) 19:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

You present anecdotes (and more errors) as the basis for your position, yet ask if mine is original research? The realms have been equal since 1926: "equal in status, in no way subordinate one to another in any aspect of their domestic or external affairs, though united by a common allegiance to the Crown."p.3 "Britain had to reconcile itself to the fact that it no longer had elevated status within the Commonwealth and that their queen was now equally, officially, and explicitly queen of separate, autonomous realms."p. 28 "The royal titles adopted in each of the fifteen realms, of which she was equally Queen, would require the assent of the Parliaments of each."[12] "The Acts passed by each of the then members of the Commonwealth after the 1952 conference had to reflect the fact that the other members of the Commonwealth were full and equal members with the United Kingdom, so that the Queen was equally Queen of each of her various realms, acting on the advice of her Ministers in each realm."p.18 "Elizabeth II embodies in her own person many monarchies: she is Queen of Great Britain, but she is equally Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, South Africa, and Ceylon... it is now possible for Elizabeth II to be, in practice as well as theory, equally Queen in all her realms."p.52, 369 I could go on, but would only be repeating what I've already said in past discussions about the very same proposal. I suggest you review them. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:44, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

British taxpayers have to pay decidedly more for security and the like than the other countries do as she rarely visits them, but what else to British tax payers pay? Does not the money actually received by the Queen consist of the income of the Duchy of Lancaster and civil list payments which are a fraction of the income of the Crown Estate? -Rrius (talk) 20:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

None of these references say to the queen as equally relevant in all the Commonwealth Realms. The few that are on point simply say "She is queen in Australia, as she is queen in Britain" without really pointing to the political/social relevance of the respective roles.

You might as well say "A haggis in Scotland is the same as a haggis in America". Sure, technically. But the fact is haggis has markedly more cultural relevance to Scotland that makes it notably different.

Anyways, I think the easiest way to demonstrate this is to search engine test it. If you do a quick search of Elizabeth II "queen of", essentially all the hits you get refer to her as queen of Great Britain or the United Kingdom or England. There is scant mention of her as Queen of Canada or the Commonwealth Realms. I think this pretty conclusively demonstrates that the majority of RS refer to her in the context of the United Kingdom. Hence, my proposed language above follows both the spirit and letter of WP:NPOV, WP:DUE, WP:V, and WP:COMMONNAME (though the latter is less relevant to this particular example).

Regardless, aside from this debate, you seem alone in your position that the current lead is balanced. Having not gone over the previous debates I'm not sure if you really had any consensus on this point, but if you did, it would seem as though consensus has changed. Do you want to accept a change to the lead or shall move to more formal WP:DR? NickCT (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Your "search engine test" doesn't shed any light on this gradient of "relevance" you claim Elizabeth has (even though you also said all monarchs are irrelevant). If you mean to say Elizabeth is more often engaged with the UK, the lead already says used to say so and I wouldn't object to it saying so again (I don't know when or why that little detail disappeared). But, as your proposed wording is counterfactual and against WP:NPOV, I certainly don't accept it. And there is, so far, absolutely zero consensus in favour of it. If you wish to reignite this debate, I'd think that, before doing so, you'd be better off at least reviewing the past RfCs on the same matter. But, it's your choice. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:28, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how you arrive at "counterfactual" as the meaning isn't changing, it's just adding emphasis to the United Kingdom. As you seem to agree that she is "more often engaged with the UK", then can't you agree that that is WP:DUE emphasis? NickCT (talk) 22:00, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Placing the emphasis where you suggest it should be communicates something that isn't true: under Elizabeth, the non-British realms are secondary or, worse, subservient to the UK. You are trying to use one fact - Elizabeth spends most of her time in Britain - to subvert another fact - Elizabeth is queen of all her realms equally. For the sake of accuracy and NPOV, that should not happen. Both truths can be (and once were) succinctly and adequately explained. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:41, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how you arrive at "subservient to the UK". Secondary yes! But secondary is appropriate. EII's relationship with the UK is fundamentally different, and more primal, than with other countries. Your argument seems to be "Well, in a legal and technical sense they're the same", and that might be true, but it lends WP:UNDUE emphasis to the purely "legal" nature of the monarchy. NickCT (talk) 23:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Secondary is not appropriate; I have already provided the reliable sources explaining why. You cannot simply push them aside because they deal with legalities; Elizabeth is queen by law, it is because she's a queen that she's notable, and she is queen of all her countries equally. Where she spends most of her time is simply another fact about her. One doesn't trump the other. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

“ Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary, born 21 April 1926) is the reigning queen and head of state of 16 independent sovereign states known as the Commonwealth realms. She is resident in and most directly involved with her oldest realm, the United Kingdom. As Head of the Commonwealth, she is also the figurehead of the 54-member Commonwealth of Nations and, as the British monarch, she is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. ”

Would replacing the first paragraph (in its entirety) with something along the lines of the above be any better? DrKiernan (talk) 08:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

@Miesianiacal re "ou cannot simply push them aside because they deal with legalities" - We wouldn't be pushing them aside in my language, merely acknowledging that the monarch is a legal, social, and cultural entity and in the context of "social and cultural" the monarch can more rightly be said to be associated with the UK than other countries.

I think we've managed to cut to the heart of the debate here. You seem focused on the legality of the monarchy, and stressing that legally speaking she is equally monarch of many realms. I might grant you that, but I think you're taking a narrow view of things that doesn't provide WP:DUE consideration for other aspects that make up the monarchy.

Anyway, the ultimate problem with your approach is that we mention EII as queen of the UK and St. Vincent and the Grenadines with the same level of emphasis. I can tell you from 1st hand experience that her relevance in St. Vincent isn't 1/10 of what it is in the UK. In the UK, she comes up in conversation from now to then, in SVG people know her pretty much only as the picture on their currency. Saying "she's queen of SVG and the UK" really provides a false impression about her role in the two countries. (and before you say it, I realize that this comment smacks of WP:OR)

@DrKiernan - Thanks for a constructive attempt at compromise language, but I personally really dislike when we make leads more wordy/vague just to settle some silly academic dispute of this nature. NickCT (talk) 10:37, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's not up to us to decide which country is more important than which; that would be imposing a made up point of view (based, it seems, on little more than anecdotes and an imaginary scale of "relevance" related to place of residence (though, again, you said all monarchs are irrelevant)). Even if it were true that most people in Papua New Guinea had no idea Elizabeth is their queen, that shouldn't tell us to drop PNG from it's place alongside the UK into a ghetto of second class realms behind Britain; this is an encyclopædia, meant to hold the facts in a neutral manner, to educate and dispel common biases and misconceptions, not mirror them. The equality of the realms is, again, backed up by reliable sources, which are what is required for Wikipedia content.

I'm not stressing anything besides the point that one fact - Elizabeth lives mostly in the UK - doesn't trump another fact - Elizabeth is equally queen of all her countries. DrKiernan's proposal above (which, if I remember correctly, is what the lead said at one time) does just that: Elizabeth is queen of 16 countries, she is queen of each equally, she is most often personally engaged with the UK. Yet, you reject it as "too wordy" (irrelevant - accuracy shouldn’t be sacrificed in the name of verbal frugality) and "vague" (which is a euphemism for "doesn't express my POV"). I believe I can't do anything from here on but continue to repeat myself. If you want to pursue this, you should probably do what you said you would and take this to the next step of dispute resolution. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:14, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

@Miesianiacal re "ghetto of second class realms behind Britain;" - Again, not really sure how mentioning them second implies they are ghetto. It simply implies that EII's role as Queen of the UK is primal to her role as Queen of the other realms.

re "I'm afraid it's not up to us to decide which country is more important than which" - Of course it isn't. It's up to RSs, and as I demonstrated with my search engine test, most references on this matter refer to EII as Queen of the UK. We should too.

re "Elizabeth is equally queen of all her countries" - Again, in a technical legal sense perhaps, but in every other respect this is a misstatement.

re "irrelevant - accuracy shouldn’t be sacrificed in the name of verbal frugality" - This isn't really a pragmatic POV. We constantly sacrifice accuracy for the sake of concision. Saying something that 95% true with 4 or 5 words is much more desirable than saying something which is 100% true with 40-50 words. Especially in the context of an encyclopedia which isn't meant to deal with nuance, and extra especially in the context of the lead of an encyclopedic article which is meant to be extremely concise.

re "If you want to pursue this, you should probably do what you said you would and take this to the next step of dispute resolution." - Agreed. Shall I draw up an RfC? For the sake of neutrality, I'll give you veto power over any wording before posting. NickCT (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Further to my previous comment I've drafted an RfC. Miesianiacal, if you want to make minor changes to wording or add one or two arguments, please be bold and do so. If I don't hear back in 36 hrs I plan to post the RfC. Thanks, NickCT (talk) 20:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a proposed alternate above that you didn't include. Additionally, I don't believe you should be summarising people's arguments for them; the RfC should merely pose a question and alternate answers for discussion. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

re "proposed alternate above that you didn't include." - Ok. I'll add it.

re "you should be summarising people's arguments for them;" - I'd like to keep the summary if that's ok. But I'll tell you what, if you don't feel I've accurately or fairly summarized your arguments, feel free to make whatever changes you see fit. NickCT (talk) 20:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to contribute to what shouldn't be there in the first place. WP:RFC explicitly says that you should "Include a brief, neutral statement of the issue below the template", which you have gone far beyond. The point is to have others give their opinions, not have you give your take on others' opinions. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Change it to ...of the United Kingdom and the 15 other Commonwealth realms.... GoodDay (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The intro is bloated, do to all 16 realms being shown. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Then just say "the Commonweath realms" instead. But the list was a compromise, worked out, what? Two years ago, now? It kept the realms equal but explicitly mentioned the UK and mentioned it first. Regardless, it looks like NickCT is going to open up this can of worms. Again. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The pressure would be alliviated, if the article was RM back to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom or less dramatically, the Infobox content heading said Queen of the United Kingdom and 15 other commonwealth realms. GoodDay (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

@ MIESIANIACAL - re "it looks like NickCT is going to open up this can of worms" - Combative. Unhelpful.

re "I'm not going to contribute to what shouldn't be there in the first place." - Combative. Unhelpful.

Sorta hoped we'd work together, but I guess I'm on my own.... RfC will go up in between 12-24hr. NickCT (talk) 22:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

You have an odd definition of combative and unhelpful. An actual illustration of such behaviour would be when you mockingly told me to stop using Wikipedia as an outlet for my fantasies and join a Renaissance festival, instead. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Have the Rfc. GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

@ MIESIANIACAL - There's an important difference between being unconstructive, and doing a little gentle chiding. I mean I understand that you're into some pretty unforgiving methods of dispute resolution, but..... is this really the best way? NickCT (talk) 02:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)