Talk:Ely, Minnesota

Adding photos

I added a photo of the Statue out in front of the International Wolf Center. It isn't the greatest representation of Ely, but it is better than nothing. I'll go dig around farther and see if I can find something better. --ShakataGaNai 03:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Grant Young

Does Grant Young still live in Ely? If so, I think he ought to be added to the Notable residents section. Even if he is a former resident, he probably belongs in that category. I'd link this right now, but I don't have current information about him, which should be included. Your help is appreciated. Hurrmic (talk) 15:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Famous Hoaxes

Ely is well known throughout Minnesota for the hoaxes. This is not vandalism, nor commercial, and rests in NOPV. Before deleting/reverting, please discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.132.63 (talk) 06:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"First Americans to explore"

The sentence "The first Americans to explore the area were voyageurs who made their way into the wilderness in the 18th century in search of furs." has about 4 things wrong with it. If we are talking about the Ely site specifically, I don't know how to fix it. If we are talking about (or want to make it about) the general area, I could fix it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I would very much like to expand on the very early history. I worked extensively on the Duluth article and did come across a little info and I do know that the fur traders used the St. Louis River up to Lake Vermillion, but I know little beyond that. I tried to look at a really great article that I used for Jay Cooke State Park, which I mostly wrote as well, but found that due to the fact that corrupt politicians have decided to hold our country hostage it is not available for now. So, what have you got? Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

You are are doing a lot of really nice work!

I know some about Voyageursageurs, Courer de Bois, fur traders etc. during the 1600's / early 1700's period. During that era, there was significant activity (and info about such) on the main water routes through the area which were near but not at the site of Ely. (The closest main one followed roughly what is the present day US/Canadian border)

The Voyageurs's role was basically the long distance canoe "truck drivers" once the endeavors became more organized and licensed, and while long distance fur transportation by canoes was (still) required. So before the Voyageurs were the explorers and entrepreneur (courer de bois) fur traders. And during their era, voyageurs were the transportation guys rather than the traders and explorers.

As time progressed, fur trade had its ups and downs. But even when it thrived, use of Voyageurs because gradually less due to shifts in and changes in the methods of transportation. The first big change was a shift that brought furs to ships in Hudson bay (and via York boats on the last river leg) rather than the long canoe route to Montreal. And later on railroads finished off the Voyageur era.

My suggestion is that we amend and fix that one sentence, including having it refer to the general area rather than implying that it happened specifically at (the future site of) Ely. I don't know early Ely-Site specific information.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the nice complement! You can read my Minnesota connection on my page if you are interested. I am from my dad's state, Colorado, but when my mom died my sister and I went to her hometown, Tower, to live with our Aunt Rose. My first job after school (in Duluth) was in Ely. It was a lot of fun back then, but it was a long time ago and "fun" back then was Slovenian-style polka bands in the four main bars in Ely. :) I haven't been back to The Range much, but I did live in Duluth again for a few years about 15 years ago. Do you have a Minnesota connection? About the article, yes I think you are right, it needs to be changed. Any wording suggestions? Gandydancer (talk) 14:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding your questions on me I'll answer by email. I looked at your page and also noted your geology interest. As you may/probably know, Ely is at the southern edge of the "great Canadian shield" a huge area where the rock is mostly exposed, with an immense variety of rock types and ages, some of it pre-Cambrian/ some of it the oldest exposed rock in the world. I'm going to be off the web for a couple days so a fuller answer might be slow. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Quick note and more later--I don't get emails so don't bother to write. Gandydancer (talk) 17:09, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I have been very short on time. I did just make a quick change to the article that I hope is satisfactory. Re the Canadian shield, yes, I am aware of that info--I may have touched on it in the Jay Cooke article. I have got out my old copy of "Minnesota's Geology" (I LOVE that book!) by Ojakangas and am trying to find time to read the Ely section. Gandydancer (talk) 22:20, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't respond, I was "off the grid" for 10 days. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Ely Wolf Center

I am returning the International Wolf Center to the article. As can be seen on this map it is at the outskirts of the village. [1] It has been argued that it is in a different county which should not make any difference at all. It has an Ely address and an Ely phone number. All googles of the Center give it an Ely location. Sectionworker (talk) 18:08, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I have also added the bear section. Please keep in mind that without tourism Ely would die. It is as important to this article as any industry is to any other state to stay afloat. Please read the New Orleans article, one of the top ten U.S. tourist attractions. That is similar to what we have in Ely. Sectionworker (talk) 21:21, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The bear exhibit is not located in Ely. Puffing up the tourism section with out-of-scope entries just because "Ely would die" without it is inappropriate. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

That is not puffing up the article. Do you know what would happen if you went to the New Orleans article and tried to make a similar edit? One and a half mile out of town is easy walking distance or less than a five minute drive. Surely you don't expect a bear center to be right down town unless you are talking about a few bears in cages. Same thing for the wolves. Sectionworker (talk) 01:58, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I totally agree, you wouldn't want a bunch of wild bears in the middle of a city. What if one got loose and started tipping over all the garbage cans? That's why they built the bear center outside the city, in St. Louis County. Feel free to add it to the county article, but please only add tourist attraction located within Ely's boundaries to the Ely article. Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 14:31, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I generally don't like seeing things *near* a city being included in the city article, but for this, I think a brief mention is ok (with the context that it's just outside municipal boundaries) since it's adjacent to the boundaries and is generally viewed as being "in" Ely even though it really isn't. The center's website calls it the "Ely facility" but also mentions being "near Ely". That said, each attraction doesn't need a separate subheading as it's putting undue weight on that section and the article doesn't need whole paragraphs promoting each individual attraction. This is an encyclopedia article about the town, not a promotional visitor brochure to boost tourism. And no, the "without tourism Ely would die" isn't a valid argument for including information in a Wikipedia article. Remember, this isn't property of Ely or its visitors bureau. --JonRidinger (talk) 15:23, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

(From WP Cities) I support inclusion here. It's well recognized that places outside of city limits can still be part of a city's culture and economy. It's a disservice to leave that out here and expect readers to know something with an Ely address and considered an Ely attraction is not within the incorporated boundary (and still not find it in the underdeveloped county article either). The comparison to the Empire State Building is poor because Hoboken is a different incorporated city with different addresses and a different common sense understanding of what community something is connected to. If it were prohibited to discuss things that are outside of city boundaries here, then the Twin Metals Mine would also have to go (and even the history line "Eventually 11 mines opened near Ely"), but this is certainly relevant to city. Don't think these need to be full sections with so much detail though. Camp Widjiwagan, Hegman Lake pictographs, Charles L. Sommers Canoe Base, Echo Trail, and Kekekabic Trail are farther from the city so their removal was more reasonable, yet they weren't added to St. Louis County, Minnesota. These centers serve the city's residents and visitors regardless of if this location pays city taxes or elects its mayor. Should Seattle be prohibited from discussing Everett-based Boeing, Redmond-based Microsoft, the airports in Sea-Tac and Everett, etc. and relegate that to King County, Washington/Seattle metropolitan area? Reywas92^Talk 15:57, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Excellent point. Boeing employs thousands from Seattle, and brings millions into Seattle's economy. This should be the criteria for inclusion of tourist attractions located outside a city...that there is some measurable connection to the city, other than just being nearby. We are not a Facebook page, and as was pointed out, "this isn't property of Ely or its visitors bureau". If we are going to list tourist sites outside a city, let's make it policy that their unique benefit to the city is mentioned. Just because a bear center is located a half-mile down the road from Ely, does not oblige us to list it as a tourist attraction. I could care less, unless it has some unique impact on Ely (aside from just existing). Magnolia677 (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Support inclusion, and 2 more reasons for doing so. It's common practice to go by mailing address, which is Ely. Doubly so when something is in an unincorporated area, as this is. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Be very cautious using mailing address as a reason since ZIP codes often do not align with actual boundaries and even what locals may consider a particular community. I know in my area, some ZIP codes cover very large areas and overlap multiple towns and townships, none of which are considered part of the city where the ZIP code comes from, while other communities don't have their own ZIP code at all (another township, with over 11,000 people, is in parts of 4 different ZIP codes). Anything outside a city should have proper context explained (particularly mentioning that something is outside the city limits) and should be very obvious that there's an association between the city and whatever attraction is being listed. For instance, when I was editing a city article, I included mention of two nearby interstate highways, both of which are well outside the city limits. Both were included since the city is listed on the exit signs and are mentioned in context of how far they are away from the city, establishing a clear connection and context. Wikipedia isn't bound by paper or size limits, so we can be accurate in terms of where things are actually located. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:48, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

It was said above that the consideration that Ely's economy is related to the tourist trade should not enter into our consideration of whether or not to include tourist attractions. I don't agree. Without the tourist trade almost all of Ely would close down and Ely would become just like any other Range town struggling just to barely stay afloat. When the mines all closed Ely's "gateway to the boundary waters" saved them. Tourism is the industry that supports the people living in Ely. It is quite expected that we include the economy of a city. See for instance the Mpls article with a section on the historical and present day economy. The main street in Ely is lined up and down with restaurants, tourist shops, outfitters, an outdoor outerwear factory that is open to the public to see items being made, and anything else connected canoe, hiking, camping, etc. The locals were furious when "their" lake, privately owned before BWCA stepped in and forced them to sell their cottages. We don't have any of that history in the article. Since neither the wolf or bear attractions would exist without an already established tourist trade perhaps they could go in a section that mentions the history of how the BWCA turned Ely into a thriving northern Minnesota town. I still believe that the wolf and bear sites are unique enough to have their own headings but I seem to be pretty much alone on that. Perhaps they could go in a section on tourism. Sectionworker (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: It isn't "common practice" to go by mailing address. If it is, please show me that consensus. Everything for miles around Ely has an Ely mailing address. Have a look at Snowbank Lodge. It has an Ely mailing address, but it's 18 miles outside Ely! If there is a consensus that "mailing address" is the criteria for inclusion in a city article, then every fishing lodge for 20 miles around every rural town in the United States will be lumped into the tourist section.

Precision is very important on Wikipedia. That's why we have edit wars over decimal places. That's why--if the population is 985--we don't round it up to 1000, to make the town look a bit bigger, so maybe more tourists will visit.

These are Ely's boundaries. Some of the places with an Ely mailing address, but NOT LOCATED within those boundaries include:

• Historic Silver Rapids Lodge (4.5 miles outside Ely)
• Lodge of Whispering Pines (13.5 miles outside Ely)
• University of Minnesota Hubachek Wilderness Research Center (5.0 miles outside Ely, but 2.0 miles from Winton, Minnesota)
• North American Bear Center (0.8 miles outside Ely)

Which ones deserve to be included in Ely's tourism section?

Would it be more precise to add these places to St. Louis County, Minnesota, which is in fact where they are located? Why should Wikipedia be obliged to puff up Ely's tourist section?

For sites located outside a city, does it make more sense to use some inclusion criteria other than "mailing address", such as significance to the town? What makes the bear center more significant than the Hubachek Wilderness Research Center? Magnolia677 (talk) 08:45, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

This is never so black and white. We went through a long (and frustrating) episode when you refused to include the John Beargrease marathon in the Duluth article because the dogs and mushers took off at Billy's Bar which is actually in the county next to that of Duluth, St. Louis County if I remember correctly, and a few miles outside of the main city of Duluth. Everywhere the race is advertised as starting in Duluth. It was only when I found a site that said that the dogs registered in a football field in Duluth and then traveled up to Billy's Bar that you quit arguing. Sectionworker (talk) 10:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

You made a logically faulty argument against my "common practice" statement. In essence your argument was that such is not the case unless I can explicitly point to where that particular thing was debated in Wikipedia and a consensus said that such is the case.North8000 (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I support leaving the North American Bear Center and referencing the International Wolf Center in the Ely article. However, the article should be modified starting with "Ely is home to the North American Bear Center..." to "On the city's edge is the North American Bear Center..." There is a urban bias when arguing about locations a minute as this. It makes sense that not to list Best Buy Corporation as a Fortune 500 located in Minneapolis when it is located in Richfield or the Minnesota State Fair as in St Paul when it is located in Falcon Heights. Which by the way the St. Paul page gets away with listing on its page by saying "The city is associated with the Minnesota State Fair in neighboring Falcon Heights just west of Como Park."Myotus (talk) 20:37, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

There is no need whatsoever to suggest that only places within incorporated boundaries may go in a city's article, nor can we have objective standards of significance. There's not clear criteria for what should and shouldn't be included, not even the city limits, and I hope editors can intelligently assess how far away will be appropriate for each instance. No part of Saguaro National Park is within the actual city of Tucson, Arizona, but it'd be pretty silly to remove its picture from the infobox, its mention in Western Tucson and Eastern Tucson's attraction, and its inclusion in the Parks and recreation section. Relegating that (and the Santa Catalina Mountains, Mount Lemmon, Old Tucson Studios, DeGrazia Gallery, Titan Missile Museum, Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum, and Tohono Chul Park to Pima County, Arizona would be ridiculous, just as it would to exclude the two centers here. How would you measure and discuss "their unique benefit[s] to the city"? If this Wilderness Reseach Center warrants description in Wikipedia, yes, it could be mentioned here, but maybe in the Education section rather than attractions! Fishing lodges and the first two links wouldn't be notable enough for mentions even if they were within the city... Reywas92^Talk 20:45, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

You write, "There's not clear criteria for what should and shouldn't be included", and advise we should leave that decision to editors. Without precise inclusion criteria, editors will continue to puff up the tourist section by including locations far outside a city's boundaries. Before I started cleaning up this article, it contained a long list of tourist sites located far from Ely, with one editor adding a park in Canada to the lead. A consensus of editors have made WP:USCITIES quite prescriptive in its inclusion criteria, and that guideline even cautions that the "arts and culture" section "is arguably the most tempting section for original research and unsourced material." If there is little support for using the objective criteria of "city boundaries", what is the criteria for inclusion? Magnolia677 (talk) 16:32, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The info about the centers is not original research or unsourced material. These museums are cultural aspects of the city, regardless of their distance from an imaginary line. The Ely Echo has a good amount of coverage about the Wolf Center and Bear Center, attesting to their being relevant points of interest. There's a decent amount about Quetico too. Maybe it doesn't belong in the lead, but this article shows that mentioning it with the Boundary Waters could be appropriate. Reywas92^Talk 12:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Magnolia677, you have been doing a large amount of deletions of long standing material, mostly without discussion. You have been pushing an unusual standard as a basis for excluding items that are in unincorporated areas which have an Ely mailing address. You need to ease off. North8000 (talk) 13:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Quetico, the 3 main gateway towns/ bases into Quetico are Atikokan, Ely and and Grand Marais. That useful information should not have been deleted. North8000 (talk) 15:53, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

suggestions for lead

I wonder if we should have a second para in lead to mention present day Ely. I wonder what the number of tourists is, the number of restaurants, etc. Thoughts? Sectionworker (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sectionworker, I like this idea. I would personally want to stay away from purely statistics though. Just like cities like Gary, Indiana and Aspen, Colorado, Ely has a local economy and identity based off of a certain industry (in this case tourism). If you want to write that short second paragraph right now, I encourage you to do so. MNBug (talk) 19:58, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Re the stats, I was just curious and did not plan to put it in the lead. Sectionworker (talk) 00:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

@MNBug: You write, "Ely has a local economy and identity based off of a certain industry (in this case tourism)". This is not supported by Ely's most recent comprehensive plan. Do you have a source to support this? Magnolia677 (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I saw quite the opposite. What I saw was what one would expect to see as the city got together to look at the current level of waste removal , availability of clean water, electrical systems, etc., and what was planned to keep or improve the existing city structures. The importance was mentioned, "Recognize the value of tourism. Recreational assets benefit both the tourism industry and offer one of the regions competitive opportunities..." No where did I read that Ely,s tourist industry negatively affects the planning or even has much to do with it other than to recognize that it is valuable. Please point out exactly where you found this information. Thanks. Sectionworker (talk) 00:06, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677 and @Sectionworker. I think Magnolia677’s source contradicts their claim. The first page of the report stated, “Historically rich and naturally pure, Ely will gain strength as a regional leader and an anchor to Minnesota Northwood's tourism where residents can ‘play where they work.’” This clearly shows Ely’s natural tourism focus. Here is another source: Ely Tourism. This source says that about half of ely’s vistors travel from more than 300 miles away and the town sees about 250,000 visitors a year. For a town with a permanent population of just over 3,000, that is a big deal. Stating that tourism isn’t a major industry and reason behind the town’s current existence would be equivalent to saying West Yellowstone, Montana's economy and culture is not related to Yellowstone National Park. Unless you have extremely strong information to the contrary, I encourage Sectionworker to please write that paragraph and insert it as soon as possible. MNBug (talk) 02:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The data you are citing is 26 years old and was sponsored by a local tourist attraction. The city's Comprehensive Plan shows that tourism is not a major employer: "The major industries providing employment...are: education, health and social services; agriculture, forestry, fishing, hunting, and mining; manufacturing; and retail (from highest to lowest)." The number of residents employed in retail was actually less than the state average. More recent census data shows that retail has increased to 17.2 percent. However, nearby Hibbing, Minnesota--not noted as a tourist location--has 12.7 percent employed in retail. Moreover, "arts, entertainment, and recreation, and accommodation and food services" employs just 15.1 percent of Ely's population, compared to a tourist center like Grand Portage, Minnesota, which employs 32.9 percent in this sector. There's no question tourism plays a role in Ely's economy, but stating "Ely has a local economy and identity based off...tourism" is not supported. Magnolia677 (talk) 06:12, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The table on p.15 does not agree with your quote. What page is your quote from. I don't know much about the Hibbing area. Perhaps they are the larger village in the area and draw a lot of retail shoppers from the surrounding smaller towns. At any rate, how many more places are we going to draw into this anyway. Sectionworker (talk) 10:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sectionworker and @Magnolia677. I'm not sure why Magnolia677 can not see what the sources say. You should disregard Grand Portage. It has a population of 722 people, so one person working in a particular sector can fluctuate the statistics. Also, Hibbing is the largest city in a major industrial area. The categories you give are really broad and strange; you lists agriculture as a large industry but there isn't any farming in Ely because it is in the center of a natural protected area! Ask yourself not what specific sectors they work in, but why they are working there. In many towns, like Ely, that are deeply connected to one industry all the jobs (even the ones in education and healthcare) are connected to the industry either directly or indirectly. There is lots of evidence (even your own) that disputes your claim. I strongly implore you to come with clear evidence stating that natural tourism is not in any way a major part of Ely's identity. All the signs point that it is. For example, please look at this source from a government website [Forest Service]. I'm befuddled as to why you can not begin to see that... MNBug (talk) 15:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

You are befuddled because you've never worked with this editor before. I have and it is frustrating to the extreme. I mentioned the Duluth article above as an example. The thing is, in other ways he is an excellent editor. I am only grateful that in this case I'm working with some good editors, which makes it seem less hopeless for me. . Sectionworker (talk) 17:57, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Outfitters

I think I'm going to add a section on about outfitters and maybe about Ely being the gateway to the BWCAW a bit more. Is anyone opposed? Logos8249 (talk) 23:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC):Sounds like a good idea.

Regarding gateway towns, for wording it's one of 3, albeit probably the largest in that respect. (the others being also Atikokan and Grand Marais) North8000 (talk) 00:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)