Talk:Emperor Uda

How better to present these dates?

In the Kugyō section:

...................................................... lifetime, 836-891
.... time in office (887-890)
........... Kampaku (887-890), Fujiwara no Mototsune　(藤原基経),　836-891

• Kampaku, Fujiwara no Mototsune　(藤原基経),　887-890.
• Daijō-daijin, Fujiwara no Mototsune　(藤原基経), 880-891.
• Sadaijin, Minamoto no Tooru　(源融),　872-895
• Sadaijin, Fujiwara no Yoshiyo　(藤原良世), 896
• Udaijin, Minamoto no Masaru　(源多), 882-888
• Udaijin, Fujiwara no Yoshiyo　(藤原良世), 891-896
• Udaijin, Minamoto no Yoshiari　(源能有), 896-897

In the intial edit, I intended to present the dates during which someone held a specific court title, but that now seems too ambitious for a start-level article. The intention had been to explain the sequence of serial officeholders with these dates.

Instead, it's probably better to simply list the birth/death dates. Arguably, it might be possible (or even preferable) to include both sets of dates as the information becomes available ...? --Ooperhoofd 19:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Genealogy

There is something wrong with the text in this paragraph:

"Emperor Uda was the third son of Emperor Kōkō. His mother was Empress Dowager Hanshi, a daughter of Prince Nakano (who was himself a son of Emperor Kamu). by Princess Madarako whose grandfather was Emperor Kammu)."

Note the ".by". I don't understand what is meant so I can't fix it. ssepp^(talk) 14:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you have caught an interesting glitch. My explanation/answer has two parts.

(1) My edit of the pre-existing text incorporates source citations from Jinnō Shōtōki, Gukanshō, and Nihon Ōdai Ichiran. The "extra" words in this revised sentence could have been removed (as I have done with the line-out of the words above), but what appears to be the personal name (the iminia) of Uda's mother caught my attention .... Thanks for helping remind me to revisit this sentence fragment. At first I thought my ear was wanting to hear a missing fricative -- the possible sign of a spelling or romjai/transcription error; but then I had a second thought. Toyotomi Hideyoshi's wife was named Kita-no Mandokoro; ergo, it could well have been that Uda's mother's name was one of those curious similarities which crop up across time. I'd planned to transfer the sentence fragment here to the Talk page, hoping someone else might just happen to know a little bit more. Now -- today -- that belated follow-through is here ....

(2) The second part of your question is implied. You don't understand the word "by" as it has been used here. The original text was posted in 2005:

 Emperor Uda [Revision as of 23:53, 1 May 2005] (edit) (undo)
 Aphaia (Talk | contribs)

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 Emperor Uda (宇多天皇) (867-931) was the 59th imperial ruler of Japan. He reigned from 887 to 897.
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 Emperor Uda (宇多天皇) (867-931) was the 59th imperial ruler of Japan. He reigned from November 7, 887 to July 3, 897. His name in birth was Sadami (定省).
   	+ 	 	
 Uda was the seventh son of the Emperor Emperor Koko of Japan by Princess Madarako whose grandfather was the Emperor Emperor Kammu of Japan. His father Koko degraded once his sons from the rank of imperial royals to the rank of subjects in purpose of reducing the state expenses and their political influence. Then Sadami was given the clan name of Minamot and named Minamoto no Sadami. Later in 887 Koko needed to appoint his successor, Sadami was upgraded to the imperial prince rank with support of Kampaku region Fujiwara no Mototsune, since Sadami was adopted to a half-sister of Mototsune.

You might think that there is a certain sense of "lèse majesté" in describing the genealogy of royals with the language used in breeding thoroughbred horses, but it is not at all uncommon nor unusual. The conventional pattern is easy to grasp ... :

[FOAL: filly or colt name] out of [MARE] by [STALLION]  

I suspect that this would have been the general intention that Aphaia had in mind, but it seems likely that the precise genesis of something written in 2005 will be forgotten by now. Out of curiosity, I turned to the dictionary to find the word "by" ... and I didn't find an explicit meaning. When I turned to the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary (the OED), I found that the word "by" occupied several pages of small print.

Yes, yours was a good question in several ways; and the response turned out to be altogether more complicated that you might have anticipated. --Ooperhoofd 19:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. It is quite complex. I don't understand it all, but that doesn't matter. I just wanted to raise the issue so that the article can be improved. ssepp^(talk) 20:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for poking me, Ooperhoofd, and sorry for my clumsy English. When I used by, I think I intended similar case like the example on the above, perhaps, I borrowed it from another Wikipedia article.

I tried to give information, now removed, to show his maternal line as correct as possible, since in the ancient Japan, maternal line is very esteemed: it was indeed a line of heiring property, and the throne succession highly depended on the political significance of maternal line. So I'm trying to rephrase the geneology and hope you cope with it later:

Emperor Uda was the seventh son of Emperor Koko. His mother, Princess Madarako (Madarako Nyoō) was a daughter of Prince Nakano (Nakano Shinnō): Prince Nakano was a son of Emperor Kammu and a Fujiwara lady (daughter of Fujiwara no Ōtsugu).

Btw, the wife of Hideyoshi was supposed to be named "Nene" or "One": Kita no mandokoro is her title as a noble's primal wife, and it was a quite common title for high ranked bushi's wives in that period. There is no relation between Princess Madarako and her. Mandokoro means literally "goverming place", and one of primal administrative office during Kamakura and Muromachi periods, both in goverment like Shogunate and in individual family (And the wives were considered to govern the family).

Hope it helps your understanding. --Aphaia 21:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Minamoto no Masanobu

There seems to be some conflicts with the text in this article and other articles regarding the parentage of Minamoto no Masanobu. In the Emperor_Uda#Historical_background section, Minamoto no Masanobu's father is given as Prince Atsuzane. But in the articles Minamoto no Masanobu and Sasaki_clan, his father is given as Prince Atsumi. Also, why is Prince Atsuzane not listed under the Emperor_Uda#Consorts_and_Children section? — Myasuda (talk) 17:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks like this conflict has now been resolved. Thanks. — Myasuda (talk) 03:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)