Talk:England–Scotland football rivalry/Archive 1

Image on this page

Is the second image on this page definitely Partick? It seems to show the typical gas tower of The Oval in the background. Is it not more likely to be the England v Scotland (1872) match that took place earlier in the same year. If anyone has the original reference, pls could they check if the venue is specified.

The only information available is that specified on the image page, any statement otherwise would be akin to original research. Gasometers were and are still common in all parts of the country, saying it represents just one of the thousand would be pushing it a bit. Nanonic (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The German description is as follows:

(La bildo estas kopiita de wikipedia:de. La originala priskribo estas: Pressezeichnung zum ersten Fußballländerspiel zwischen England und Schottland (1872) {{Bild-PD-alt}} {| border="1" ! date/time || username || edit summary |---- | 01:46, 12. Mai 200)

The year is given and England are listed first, which suggests it is representing England v Scotland (1872).Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Results list

This page should include the 1870, 1871, and feb 1872 results. I would put them up myself, but there seem to be people who want to pretend that these matches did not happen.

see England v Scotland (1870) England v Scotland (1871) England v Scotland (1872)

for the results

thanks

Those matches are not considered official international matches by any reliable source. It's fair enough to mention them as background to the official fixture beginning in November 1872, but they shouldn't be part of the overall record and statistics. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

These matches were all considered "International" by the FA, the Scotsman newspaper and the Glasgow Herald Newspaper. Indeed the Herald called one "the great international football match". I cannot think of any more "reliable sources" available at the time. They should be included, but marked "not currently recognised by FIFA as official". They are the very beginning of the rivalry that this page is about. To exclude them is to take a totally unilateral perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinigi (talk • contribs) 18:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

For examples see:

The march 1870 match was described in the Glasgow Herald as "the great international football match"

Also the first 1871 match was described by the glasgow herald newspaper that " it was known that both captains had been successful in the composition of elevens capable of efficiently representing their respective causes and additional excitement was manifested from .... Scotland by the appearance on the present occasion of several skilled exponents of the game who were absent in the previous engagement..."

We all agree that only Football associations in existence at the time were London, Sheffield (and ?Derby). I.e. there was no overarching body who could possibly approve it officially from the Scottish or FIFA angle... but this was also true in Dec 1872 so should not be the criterion for deciding what goes on this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinigi (talk • contribs) 18:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

In the absence of further discussion I have added the results, but in a separate table earlier on. I have followed exactly the same structure as the later table. This seems only to be fair. Please don't just undo it. Kinigi (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Rivalry is actually fairly one-sided

Scotland fans almost universally support whoever England play against, but actually England fans often support Scotland, and certainly rarely support their opponents. The Scots like to claim otherwise, but this is actually the case. As a life-long football fan who has lived in both countries I know this personally, but would struggle to support it with a linked reference. Any thoughts? raining girl (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

You see, it's arrogance like that which fuels the rivalry. ;-) Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, it is. Nobody (in England, anyway) would dream of calling the Ashes one-sided, but it is far more one-sided historically than England v Scotland at football. I don't think Scotland have ever gone decades without beating England, apart from the last 20 years when there have been only three games. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

He doesn't mean that England have dominated the head-to-head. He means that the feeling of rivalry is much more intense on the Scottish side than on the English. I would say this is broadly correct. It is (regrettably) true that large numbers of English people support, or at least root for, Scotland - these however are generally not active supporters of the England team, but idle/part-time/armchair supporters with little or no understanding of the game's traditions. Outside of a few genteel Edinburgh postcodes it is exceptionally rare to find any Scottish person who ever wants the England team to do anything but lose. (This is not a problem at all - it is the nature of sporting rivalry - but let's not pretend it isn't the case.) Shiresman (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a strange article, I found it by chance while looking at WC Squads. Mainly because the evidence and examples of English people hating/wishing Scotland do badly is totally at odds with my experience. For example, regardless of the use of a quote from the Guardian to "prove" that England fans were pleased to see the Dutch score to make the match 4-1 and put England out, that just didn't happen! Everyone in England wanted Scotland to go through and where I was watching it I remember there being a buzz of excitment that as it stood Scotland would qualify and everyone was disappointed when the Dutch scored. The "stand up if you hate Scotland" and decidedly snide reference to "i'd rather be a paki than a jock" are weak evidence. I also note that Rod Liddle and the Daily Mail are amongst the references, a "shock jock" style opinion writer and a newspaper that is known throughout the country as a parody of jingoism.

I read the article with a a weary embarassment - England fans don't have a rivalry with Scotland and haven't for at least 20 or 30 years. They just don't care, and when they do they wish Scotland well. If I was that bothered I feel sure I could dismantle this article with weight of evidence but I'd just get into a tedious edit war with people who want to present a view of a rivalry that is long gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.128.152 (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Why not expand the article with cited examples of English fans wishing Scotland well then? Good luck in doing so. The article clearly states already (in the introduction!) that the rivalry is not what it once was due to the cessation of the annual match and England developing other rivalries. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

OK fair point, but I'll regretfully decline. The rivalry betwen English and Scottish fans exists purely in the mind of Scottish fans and bored newspaper columnists. If you can't find a real life England fan who agrees with you then you need to have a serious think about what you're trying to achieve by defending this view of reality. I'll leave this talk page by pointing out that the first line "The England and Scotland football rivalry is a highly competitive sports rivalry that exists between the national football teams of the two countries", wasn't even true 11 years ago when the newspaper article that the citation is from was published. A far more reasonable first line would read "The England and Scotland football rivalry is a formerly competitive sports rivalry that existed between the national football teams of the two countries for over a hundred years."

The English really don't care, they really really really don't. If you've lived in England you know this and that the article is a misrepresentation of reality. As far as "England have developed rivalries with Germany and Argentina, which SOME England fans now consider to be more important than the historic rivalry with Scotland," is concerned, that's a laughable line. There isn't a single England fan in the world who considers Scotland to be a bigger game than Germany or Argentina and it's supported by a defunct link to a website that nobody has ever heard of.

And I'll say it again, the I'd rather be a paki than a jock line is unnecessary, cheap, and snide and reveals more about the writer than it does about the England support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.15.117.74 (talk) 19:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The source cited for this chant is a report by Brian Oliver in the The Observer, viz "In the England Members Club section, thousands of 'official' home fans were behaving like the worst of those on the Tube, full of hatred and chanting: 'I'd rather be a Paki than a Jock.'" The Observer is a highly reputable newspaper and Brian Oliver is now the publication's sports editor.81.152.113.50 (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

"The rivalry also manifests itself in the fact that many Scottish people support England's opponents[78][79] and vice versa,"

The citations for "vice versa" are the aforementioned wacky newspaper columnist Rod Liddle, and Terry Butcher, former England football captain. 2 people! If you can find a Jim Davidson joke online you'll have 3! Madness! What are you trying to achieve?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.15.117.74 (talk) 19:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:NTEMP. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:21, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

"2 people"? The source for the Terry Butcher citation (an interview with the Sunday Times on the occasion of the former England captain taking over as Scotland manager George Burley's assistant) quotes Butcher as saying, “I never hide away from the fact that when Scotland got knocked out of World Cups in the past, like in 1982 and 1986 and 1990, we cheered the roof off, the England team did that, but George has asked me to do a job for him and that’s something I want to do”". This behaviour by "the England team" presumably involved a lot more than two people. 86.152.2.62 (talk) 19:11, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW, England v Germany is such a big rivalry that there isn't even a German language version of England and Germany football rivalry. (per [1]) Whereas there is one about the Germany and Holland rivalry. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Unwittingly, you've proved my point. England fans "believe" they have a rivalry with Germany in the same way that Scotland fans "believe" they have a rivalry with England. German fans find our obsession as funny and ridiculous as England fans find Scotland's obsession with us. Rivalries have to go both ways or they're just an inverted lovesickness. England and Scotland's football rivalry is a historical footnote by that definition. Trust your own experiences. We're in the same part of the country (I'm an adopted hibee) and you must speak to plenty of English people. However all that said, it's still a really good and well written and researched article. See you in the new East Stand (I'll be the one wearing a morris dancer's outfit and drinking Pimms!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.14.95.213 (talk) 14:44, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Flags removal

Personally I agree with removal of the flags for the venue (its a fairly limited set of two), however the loss of the winner column and its flags does detract from the article a little. The placement of the flags was a useful and quick mechanism to be able to see trends/periods of dominance and overall quantity of wins on either side. For the casual viewer it provided a quick visual aid. Whats left is simply manually going through the results and working out manually from which side was the home side and the result who won or lost, a simple but time consuming task. As such I think its not a great change and probably falls under the "useful visual cue" use for icons in the MOS and is a candidate for re-insertion? Just IMHO beardybloke (talk) 08:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do with this later. Perhaps a chart of some sort would be better? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back. Could possibly be. Difficult to say without knowing what sort of chart you envisage? beardybloke (talk) 15:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of something like The Ashes#Summary of results and statistics. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Lack of evidence

The point on the article for this page "that many Scottish people support England's opponents, and vice-versa" I believe to be incorrect and poorly cited. Looking at the citations for this point, there is no evidence that English supporters choose to support Scotland's opponents. In my personal experience, having lived in both countries, English supporters have little care about how the Scottish team do, whereas Scottish supporters will inevitably celebrate every England failure. If there is evidence to contradict my assertion, please could someone find much better proof than the extremely unconvincing citations provided. I propose in the mean time that this line be removed from the article. Just to clarify, I don't agree with the earlier suggestion made taht the rivalry is one-sided as England supporters regularly sing 'are you Scotland in disguise' and matches between the teams are intense suggesting a rivalry. But to suggest that England fans actively support teams Scotland are playing is just untrue, especially when Scotland are playing so-called "stronger" nations when England fans will usually support the Scots. dodger9 17 January 2010

I find the figures cited claiming 24% of Scots will support England in the World Cup 2010 are frankly farcical. I'm sure there are some odd balls (probably from Morningside or such places) who will support England but I have yet to actually meet any of them. Not that I believe that Scots hate the English in fact there seems to be more genuine English antipathy towards the Scots than vice versa probably as a result of the domination of the previous government by what the Daily Mail would call a Caledonian Mafia.

In different circumstances I would be happy to wish England well but the incessant harping on about 1966, delusions that they are destined to win, the media frenzy and faux nationalism does get a little annoying. Scotland aren't particularly great at football, frankly I'm not really bothered as my national identity is not based on flag waving and the success of the Scottish national football team (92.40.26.60 (talk) 13:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)).

For God's sake...have a sense of humour! I'm from Lancashire and English to the bone, but if a Scot wears an "ABE" T-shirt, then I take it as a joke. Football rivalry is fun. I have never met an individual Scotsman that I didn't like, and I know that if a foreign invader were to set foot in Scotland, then every man in England capable of picking up a rifle would do so and head North...and vice versa. I have seen enough Scotsman's graves in Tyne Cot cemetary to know this. Ireland's team were only denied a place in the World Cup by an injustice, and if a plucky Scottish team had made it there, then good luck to them. It's '44 years of pain' for England now, so perhaps we are crap at football too...just not quite as crap as Scotland :-) 86.148.252.16 (talk) 22:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Club level

As usual in any article concerning club matches between Scottish and English clubs the illusion is made that there are only two teams in the Scottish League: Rangers and Celtic. My own home team, Dunfermline Athletic, notably knocked out Everton in the 1962-63 Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and West Bromwich Albion in the 1968-69 European Cup Winners' Cup. Why this constant bias towards the Old Firm? Williamgeorgefraser 15:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Williamgeorgefraser (talk • contribs)

1. All the recent ties involved the Old Firm - when was the last time a non-Old Firm side played an English club? Dundee United or Aberdeen in the 1980s? 2. The most historically significant ties involved Old Firm sides (Celtic v Leeds at Hampden, Rangers v Leeds, Celtic beating Blackburn and Liverpool to reach a final). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Women

I want to add a paragraph to this article about the women's team's rivalry. Mentioning the first official game for both countries in 1972, Scotland's win at this year's Cyprus Cup etc. Maybe also note Scotland's top players (Julie Fleeting, Kim Little...) who have played in England. Before I go to the bother of writing/referencing it, would anyone have any objections? Clavdia chauchat (talk) 11:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

That's fair enough, as long as it isn't given undue weight. The basis of the historic rivalry was the annual male match and, to a lesser extent, some of the club matches. Women's football is a part of the modern picture. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)