Talk:Ennis Del Mar

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Important Note: the fair use rationale requested above never appreared and the contested imeage was deleted. The current image differs from the prior (now deleted) image. The current image is derived from copyright holder's promotional materials and the image description is believed to be in compliance with current policy. Conrad T. Pino 02:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Name similarity?

Ennis Del Mar's name is not dissimilar to Del Ennis, a former Major League Baseball player. The latter Ennis' first name is Delmer. 68.193.202.183 16:59, July 19, 2007.

Categorize sexual orientation criteria

IMO sexual orientation should reflect either self identification or dominant behavior. Both Ennis and Jack denied gay self identification in the film. The film portrays more women in Ennis' life and more men in Jack's life but neither makes an obvious dominant sexual behaviour choice as Ennis drifts towards asexual and Jack never leaves his wife. I'm removing Category:Fictional gay men pending futher discussion. Conrad T. Pino 05:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

If you remove Fictional gay men from their category sections, then you should remove Fictional bisexuals, seeing as neither claim to be bisexual, and just as many film critics have stated that they are gay. Flyer22 06:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I tend towards agreeing with your assertion. A person's story told by themselves must be honored as doing less is profoundly disrespectful. A person's story told by another is valid only if based on observable and preferably verifiable behavior. Applying a label to another based on interpreting behavior is inherently subjective and why I find critics' assertions less than persuasive. I suggest that heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual (gay) are commonly used as mutually exclusive terms. Within the mutually exclusive premise "bisexual" fits best but I don't claim an excellent fit, just better than the other alternatives. I propose staying within the bounds of what we can verify with reliable sources. I also believe the story would be diminished had sexual orientation been made explicit which is why I can support removing bisexual as well. Conrad T. Pino 07:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

So you're okay with me removing them from the Fictional bisexuals category, right? And letting the LGBT categorization stand as being what includes them as part of the gay (or bisexual) community? Flyer22 07:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you have my support to remove bisexual, I support the LGBT categorization and I'll help in the pursuit of additional proposals as well. Conrad T. Pino 08:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Conrad. Thanks. It's been really pleasant talking with you. I'll weigh in further as well, as to any other editors commenting on this matter in the future. Flyer22 08:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Late

It is not Wikipedia policy to put "the late" in front of the names of people who are no longer living. There are literally billions of such people, after all, and writing about "the late Richard Nixon" and "the late Jimmy Durante" and "the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother" and "the late William Shakepeare" gets a bit ridiculous. In the case of this article in particular, it really isn't relevant to the character whether an actor who portrayed him is still alive or not. - JasonAQuest (talk) 06:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I support you removing "the late" from this article. Flyer22 (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ennis is not Irish

The Irish word for "island" is "inis", pronounced rather like "inⁱsh" in English. I don't know what "Ennis" means, but it's not even close to the Irish "inis".

85.224.210.112 (talk) 21:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to remove it if it is wrong. WP:Be Bold. Flyer22 (talk) 16:36, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

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Ennis del Mar (not Del Mar)

As in the short story : [1].--Arorae (talk) 14:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Most English sources use "Del" [2][3][4][5] In the strict sense "del" is just a Spanish preposition and as a rule prepositions are lowercased but in other cases, like Ángel Di María, caps are kept due to the usage in media. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 15:37, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It is a fictional character not a real person. It is an American cowboy (not a Spaniard) named by Annie Proulx as «Ennis del Mar» in all editions of her novel. Translation has always considered this peculiarity. There is no incorrect usage that will change her writing.--Arorae (talk) 15:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:COMMONAME trumps WP:OFFICIAL names. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 15:53, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

it is not an official name. Come on. A fictional.--Arorae (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

All I am saying is that the "official" name of this character is "Ennis del Mar"; the common name used by sources is "Ennis Del Mar". © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 15:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

You do not understand what I mean. The sources ? which ones ? All the books on the novel (or almost) write del Mar. All the movie sites (or almost) write Del Mar. It is a novel before becoming a movie and in the movie you don’t write, you hear the name. --Arorae (talk) 15:58, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

How can you say that “Ennis del Mar” is an “official name”? He is a fictional character that never existed.--Arorae (talk) 16:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The sources I mentioned above that I found on the very first Google page? It makes no sense to talk with you. If you want the article renamed create a WP:RM, but as I said Del Mar is the common usage. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 16:01, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

and this one? [6] that writes del Mar? It is not a common usage?

as you said : “it makes no sense to talk with you”. A perfect example of impossible Consensus.--Arorae (talk) 16:04, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Two people don't make a community consensus. Once again, use RM. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 16:11, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

two people ? I did not write “and as a rule prepositions are lowercased” but this is a Spanish name. Proulx never wrote that. The difference between these 2 people is: there is someone who reads (books and good movies) and one who just stops on the first page of Google without thinking one second that it could be a misspelling of sites that write incorrectly the lowcase.--Arorae (talk) 16:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

lol, so now you decide which "sites ... write incorrectly the lowcase" and we should only consider Proulx's capitalization to be the one and only valid usage. By the way I stopped at page one, but this continues over and over again with dozens of websites using Del, proving, once again WP:COMMONAME trumps the WP:OFFICIAL Proulx's name. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 16:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Is it reasonable to assume that the two most primary sources for his name would be the book and the movie? If so, are they consistent in their capitalization? If so...as a created character, why would their capitalization not trump that of secondary or tertiary sources? If a thousand websites misspell Hollywood as Hollywoo, I don't think we're going to update that article... DonIago (talk) 20:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

According to Google, Hollywoo is a fictional location in Bojack Horseman. Assuming that 150,000 of them are indeed typos, 780,000,000 use Hollywood, so it wouldn't even be considered. And I didn't read the short story (it's not a book), but I watched the movie, and if I remember correctly, Ledger probably signed everything as "Ennis". Also, the film credits say: "Ennis Del Mar - HEATH LEDGER"[7], and no, they don't capitalize every word "Alma Jr., age 3". But as Arorae moved to this, it is pointless by now. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 21:51, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I did see Arorae's edits on this matter and wondered if a move request would result. We should obviously go by WP:Common name. But how to apply that in this case is apparently the question. Still, WP:Common name states that Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 05:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems a bit silly to me in the case of a fictional character name though. I think my earlier example was taken a bit too literally, but my point remains...should we really be naming an article about a fictional character by a name other than what the creator of the name used only because a different form of it is "more popular", so to speak? If the film uses Del Mar then it's entirely possible that many of the sources are using that version because they're discussing the film, without regard to how the character's name originally appeared. DonIago (talk) 15:37, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Is it Homer Jay Simpson or Homer Simpson; is it Penny Hofstadter or is Penny (The Big Bang Theory). Being fictional is not an excuse to avoid guidelines. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 15:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Between this and your last response to me, I'm having a difficult time determining whether you're arguing in good faith at this point. Those two examples are not analogous to what we're discussing. DonIago (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

But what's supposed to be the analogy here? Articles whose prepositions are uppercased. We have Star Trek Into Darkness and Ángel Di Maria. That's not the analogy? Well, the problem now is that "'Del' is a typo", how that conclusion was reached? Are you basing solely upon what the original short story said? "Well, the short story's name is Ennis del Mar, ergo, we should give preference to that name". Flyer22 Frozen and I explained to you twice why we don't follow official names, we only follow what secondary English-language reliable sources say, yet you want me to "assume good faith" when I see two users deliberately skipping already-explained guidelines to promote the original spelling given by the creator in 1997. I'll tell you the same I told Arorae: you want this article to be titled Ennis del Mar, use WP:Requested moves. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 16:55, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Okay, let me ask bluntly: why should the fact that reliable sources have potentially used an incorrect form of capitalization trump the capitalization used by the creator of the character? If the best answer you can give is "that's the policy we have", then IMO that's no explanation at all. What's your basis for preferring the potentially incorrect form beyond "a lot of reliable sources use it"? Do you consider the fact that the author may have used a different form to be entirely irrelevant? This is why I brought up "Hollywoo"; because, to me, just because a number of sources begin blindly referring to something incorrectly doesn't mean we should simply follow suit. DonIago (talk) 17:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

You ask too many questions for problems already solved in our guidelines, and I'll answer all of them accordingly:

• Is it reasonable to assume that the two most primary sources for his name would be the book and the movie? Yes, it is. However, refer to WP:PRIMARYSOURCES.
• If so, are they consistent in their capitalization? No, per the film credits.
• If so...as a created character, why would their capitalization not trump that of secondary or tertiary sources? Primary sources cannot trump secondary sources, per WP:Reliable sources.
• If a thousand websites misspell Hollywood as Hollywoo, I don't think we're going to update that article. Tricky, because you are trying to create controversy here. It's like if I tell you "Should we call Beyoncé Beyonce because she was born Beyonce? (see article's infobox) If so, why should we call her Beyoncé when she was born Beyonce?" These questions, although valid in spirit, are already solved by WP:Reliable sources.
• Should we really be naming an article about a fictional character by a name other than what the creator of the name used only because a different form of it is "more popular", so to speak? Yes, per WP:SECONDARY, that's why I mentioned Homer Simpson and Penny Hofstadter. Both have a name other than what the creator of the name used because they are the "more popular" form. And Ennis's is not a different name, it is a different capitalization.
• If the film uses Del Mar then it's entirely possible that many of the sources are using that version because they're discussing the film, without regard to how the character's name originally appeared. Of course, it is possible, and it is as possible as it is because Ennis is an English-language character. If you search for Spanish-language sources, they all consistently call him "Ennis del Mar", because those are the Spanish naming conventions. However English naming conventions are different: they omit accents, they tend to capitalize on every word.
• Why should the fact that reliable sources have potentially used an incorrect form of capitalization trump the capitalization used by the creator of the character? Why should the capitalization used by the creator of the character trump what reliable sources say? What make them incorrect? Was Annie Proulx's spelling correct in the first place?
• A number of sources begin blindly referring to something incorrectly doesn't mean we should simply follow suit. -> Just your opinion. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 17:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I've requested additional opinions at WT:CHAR. DonIago (talk) 01:58, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think they'll answer, but if I were a member, I'd pointed out to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction and Wikipedia:Naming character articles. © Tbhotch^™ 19:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I set up two subsections below to facilitate people weighing in on the one they prefer, because all the dialogue above is getting pretty clunky and hard to sort out. Novellasyes (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Should it be Ennis del Mar?

• I'd go with "Ennis del Mar" because that's how the novelist spells it in her book. It would be fine with me to add a line somewhere saying (if this is true) that in the script for the movie, the "d" in "Del" is capitalized. Novellasyes (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support per Novellasyes. DonIago (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support per Novellasyes. --Arorae (talk) 21:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Should it be Ennis Del Mar?

• If this is a Requested move discussion, use WP:RM; if this is a Request for comments, use WP:RFC. As it currently stands, it is just a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS that has no 'validity'. I also find interesting that after I pointed out Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction and Wp:Naming character articles, which support the usage of Del Mar, this subsections appeared. But I will assume it is a mere coincidence. © Tbhotch^™ 23:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's the script, as requested: "JACK: Nice to know you Ennis Del Mar". © Tbhotch^™ 23:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

And you know what, I've asked enough times to open a RM discussion. I'll do it myself. There's no legitimate reasons to keep this MOS-related change to a limited discussion in a paged watched by no more than 30 people. © Tbhotch^™ 23:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

33 watchers follow this page and … 8,837 people have viewed it recently. You are afraid to be alone, or what?-Arorae (talk) 00:15, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

the very poor quality of the typography in the script proves nothing.-Arorae (talk) 00:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

If someone is afraid of anything here is this edgy user. © Tbhotch^™ 00:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I am never afraid. Except for meeting people that did not accept any kind of discussion. And, I do not want to know if « edgy user » could be an insult.-Arorae (talk) 02:04, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 29 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Ennis Del Mar → Ennis del Mar – On the discussion immediately above, it was raised the question if the current name of the page is the correct one. This happened because of the original character at Brokeback Mountain (short story), written by Annie Proulx, published by the New Yorker in 1997. Proulx wrote the character as "Ennis del Mar". 8 years later Brokeback Mountain was released. The character was renamed to "Ennis Del Mar" (see film credits at 01:52 and the original script). Since then most sources use the capitalized version of the character, which arises the question, what is the name of the character? © Tbhotch^™ 01:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. – bradv🍁 05:55, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose, as nominator of a discussion I requested to be opened by those requesting a name change but somehow insisted on not creating it since Day 1. My reasons are way too detailed above. But to summarize everything above for those not involved here are the reasons I'm opposed to the rename:

A) Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction. From MOS:FICTION: "editors must use both primary and secondary information". The primary information is the original spelling, however, secondary information prefers "Del Mar". Next: "Secondary information is external to the fictional universe; it is usually taken from secondary sources about the work or the fictional world it describes, or from primary and secondary sources about the author and the creation of the work [...] The rule of thumb is to use as much secondary information as necessary and useful to cover the topic's major facts and details from a real-world perspective – not more and not less." Proulx's spelling is a primary source, while the upper case spelling is used by several sources cited below.

B) Wikipedia:Naming character articles. From NCA: "There is no special guideline or criteria for titling an article about a fictional character [...] Some clear principles do apply [including] The general criteria in Wikipedia:Article titles policy all apply to fictional characters. The most salient of these is usually WP:COMMONNAME." From Article titles: "Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources." Which leads to:

c) WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above." What do the sources say?

D) WP:Secondary sources: the National Public Radio, The New York Times, The Washington Post, National Film and Sound Archive of Australia, The Times of India, The Telegraph, Rotten Tomatos, Rogert Ebert, Fox News, The Guardian, Variety, Rolling Stone, Reuters, Voice of America, and a long etcetera. And I'm not lying, I merely cherrypicked sources typing: "ennis del mar" [Name of publication] in Google. If you use the traditional Gsearch ("ennis del mar") you will still see that 8/10 sources English-language sources use Del Mar. Which contrasts with:

E) WP:Primary sources. From PS: "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." The only "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts" here is that Ennis Del Mar is called "Ennis del Mar" in the short story, beyond that, there is no legitimate reason to use "del Mar" as more reliable sources use "Del Mar".

As an open question, here, here and here users questioned the reliability of these sources, my question is, would you write an article about Ennis D/del exclusively using this source because the rest are "wrong"? © Tbhotch^™ 01:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support move: If the author's original naming of the character was "Ennis del Mar", then I see no reason why we should be changing it solely because sources have used capitalization that does not reflect the author's intent. Even if all of the above arguments covered this case, and I'm not sure they do, I would then argue that in this instance WP:IAR may be appropriate. But we're not talking about changing the actual name of the character here, or using a nickname or alias or anything else. We're literally talking about using the spelling of the character's name as the creator of the charater intended. The only point of contention I see is that the film apparently did capitalize the "D"...but the film also came later, and it's hard for me to believe that if the LotR films had changed Frodo Baggins to Fredo Boggins that we would have named the article thusly; it seems far more likely we would have redirected the latter to the former. DonIago (talk) 02:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per what I stated in the #Ennis del Mar (not Del Mar) section above. Seems to me that the WP:Common name policy means the title should remain "Ennis Del Mar." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 04:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Additional comment: I alerted Wikipedia talk:Article titles to this discussion. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 08:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support move as per @Doniago:. Furthermore typography of the movies doesn’t make the difference as they are very often not quite precise/accurate or irrelevant. Movies are made to be seen not to be read.-Arorae (talk) 07:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I add here a small comment of what written above by @Tbhotch: (his quote: “ as nominator of a discussion I requested to be opened by those requesting a name change but somehow insisted on not creating it since Day 1. My reasons are way too detailed above.”). I am definitely not one of “those” requesting a name change since day 1, because, at the very beginning, I was only pointing the fact here that the accurate writing was Ennis del Mar, as per author, the NPOV indicates and command that when 2 versions exist you should consider both of them. Asking for a MOVE with an encyclopaedic and endless reason but, please DO NOT MOVE or CHANGE anything, is quite funny and illogical. It is clearly not a way to open discussion. An "edgy user" that is very very calm. And never afraid of…--Arorae (talk) 13:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support move. I support changing the name of the article to "Ennis del Mar" because that is the author's original name of the character. I think that should be by far the primary consideration. Novellasyes (talk) 13:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose to move. I think WP:COMMONNAME is the right principle to apply here, but I don’t think that means following secondary sources instead of primary sources. Secondary sources about the movie will naturally use Del Mar; secondary sources about the book (which I haven’t seen much of here) I expect will use del Mar. I think the real question is, is the movie version or the book version the most common thing people are thinking of when they look up Brokeback Mountain? I think the comparison to Lord of the Rings above is a useful one, but it actually led me to a different conclusion than I expected. I spent some time reading List of original characters in The Lord of the Rings film series and even when one of these “original” characters shares a name with a character from the book (especially Irolas) the film name/character is taken as primary. I think it’s extremely unlikely we’d refer to the LOTR book character as Fredo Boggins if the movie renamed him, but I don’t think that’s because books always take precedence: I think it’s because for many people the LOTR books, specifically, would be the “common name”. LOTR is a bit unusual I think for having huge numbers of people for whom the movies are “most common”/“primary”, and equally huge numbers for whom the books are “most common”/“primary”. I think Brokeback Mountain is a different case. Many people hear about the book for the first time while reading about the movie. For them, Ennis Del Mar is the “common name” and discovering that there was a book version introduces them to the del Mar variant. To reflect that, I think I makes sense for the article to be Del Mar. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 16:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support. The name in the book should prevail since it is the original. Besides, the difference is too small to cause any confusion to any reader. Vpab15 (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. If the TV variant is more commonly used in sources then that's the one we should stick with.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Footnoted

After discussing the matter a bit with Paine, who I feel closed this in a more-than-reasonable manner if not quite satisfying me personally, I've added a footnote about the capitalization variance. I hope this will be considered a reasonable compromise but am happy to discuss other options. DonIago (talk) 13:59, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

dear @Doniago:, it is ok for me. But should I say nevertheless that the capitalisation is not in the movie? Of course the movie script wrote Del Mar but the typography of the films is done only to turn the scenes, not to written them.--Arorae (talk) 16:18, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

If the capitalization never appears in the film itself, I would lean toward saying that the wording of the footnote should say that the capitalization is specifically from the film script, but I'm not sure whether we might need a source to make that assertion. DonIago (talk) 17:31, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Included two sources, one for the short story that depicts the lc spelling and one for TV Guide that depicts the uc spelling. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 20:52, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! DonIago (talk) 01:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)