Talk:Ernest Fanelli

Judith Gautier

I've added material from the book Judith Gautier: writer, orientalist, musicologist, feminist [1]. But I have my doubts about its reliability. Leoncavallo composed a symphonic poem, Seraphitus-Seraphita (1894), but I can't see much evidence outside of this book that Fanelli created an entire opera on the topic. Also the timeline has Fanelli being supported by Gautier before he was 'officially' discovered, which seems odd. I note this here just in case anyone can cast any light on this. Paul B (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ernest Fanelli/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aza24 (talk · contribs) 21:25, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Happy to review this. Will leave comments below. – Aza24 (talk) 21:25, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Life

• "started studying [...] continuing his studies" – possibly rephrase to avoid "study" twice
• Do we know the teacher he didn't like?

There's no info

• Might consider linking timpani and music engraver
• maybe gloss who Delibes is? "French opera composer..." or something
• "tough" seems a little informal, but I'm not sure
• I assume 17 March is in 1912, but 1912 is only mentioned in regards to when he began working with Pierné, not when he gave Pierné the score

Works

• You might consider making the comp table sortable

The class for sorting is present, but I just realized that when the table floats to the right, the sorting buttons dissappear... I'll have to nag at village pump

Well that was quick!

• "between that and meeting Pierné"—I would just give the year, since it will probably be forgotten by the time someone gets to this part or not have been known at all if they skip the life section
• Might give the translated title of L'Effroi du soleil in the prose
• "Some orchestral compositions use instruments"—does't really mean anything, maybe you're missing a word like "uncommon" or "unusual"?

I feel like that's a little WP:OR-y because no source states that they're uncommon or unusual. I've dropped the word "instruments" instead

• The Ezra Pound line is phrased a little strangely—sounds like Fanelli is the "he" in "he wrote that the"
• I think Ravel was right about proto-Impressionism predating Fanelli :)

Indeed, though I'm still kinda surprised by how someone with little musical training composes such a work in their twenties during the 1880s! Composers usually take time to develop a mature style. Either he had a gift he couldn't exploit or he pulled all-nighters in the library studying Années de pèlerinage ;)

• Might consider linking "formally" to [[Musical form]
• You might consider mentioning at least the existence of the other chamber works in the prose

I could, though in that case I would probably also have to unnecessarily include the other orchestral works and the opera, which there is no information about except for their existence. I feel like its redundant but I'm thinking of a solution

Reputation

• I would gloss who George Antheil is
• The Monthly Musical Record should probably be itaclized?
• Would like ornamentation

Clarify please

My apologies, I meant "link"—have just done so now myself. Aza24 (talk) 19:54, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• Might link modernism to modernism (music)
• "he liked" seems a little informal
• I feel like the lead is missing a sentence something like "His oeuvre is relatively small, and includes orchestral works, 32 miscellaneous songs, a few chamber works and a three act opera buffa" or something

I added a similar sentence but dropped "is relatively small, and" as there was unfortunately no ref that supported that, and would therefore be OR

• Article looks great otherwise. Aza24 (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Aza24: I've implemented your suggestions and left a few comments. Also, to answer your question, it doesn't matter, because everything below the ref section I completely forget about all the time anyways! >:( I have to stare at a new article like 8 times before realizing that I need to add categories, let alone portals. Wretchskull (talk) 13:19, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Ha! Sometimes when I expand music critic's bios I don't see them on my watchlist for months, until some editor comes a long and adds six of the most blatantly obvious missing categories all at once... not my forte either!

The changes look good, and I will pass the article shortly. You might consider rephrasing the "saxhorn" line a little closer to how Rosar does. I think it's important to say first how he admired the wind sound, which explains why he has those kinds of instruments (and avoids OR additions like you said). When the opposite order of information it used here, I feel it separates the observations' connections too much. A minor matter though. Congratulations on your hard work. Aza24 (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 04:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that even though Ernest Fanelli's performance of Thèbes on 17 March 1912 was a triumphant success, it did not convince him to return to composition? Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/905497#metadata_info_tab_contents. Page 225-226 , Rosar, William (2001). "Fanelli, Ernest". Oxford Music Online. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.article.43856. ISBN 978-1-56159-263-0.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Pride Month

Improved to Good Article status by Wretchskull (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 20:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC).

Interesting life and work, detailed GA on fine sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I am not happy with the hook, because until the last word, you give no clue that he is a composer, and Thèbes (needs italics) a composition. He could be an actor or pianist or any other performer. I guess "tone poem" might help. Can we even call the performance Fanelli's when Pierné conducted? - Perhaps his early "Impressionism" could interest more readers than return or not to composition. What do you think of his portrait here? - In the article (not needed for DYK approval): I am not sure that the list of compositions in a side box, with a background colour, is a good idea. How does that look on mobile? - How do you feel about an infobox? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:19, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Gerda; the hook highlights the wrong thing. I think it would be better to mention that some saw Fanelli as the first Impressionist, as that is essentially the only reason he is notable. I'll pass on the infobox.. Wretchskull (talk) 09:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Wretchskull, please word a hook then. I can't or I could not review. I could help with formatting if needed. - Or how about you wording it, User:Onegreatjoke - I could make you an infobox in the simple style of Jean Sibelius whose birthday is today, if you don't have strong feelings against it. All recent FAs about composers have one, latest Artemy Vedel. We have readers from all over the world who come to the English Wikipedia because he has no article in their languages. They may not be good in English, and some information with parameters may help them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Not only is an infobox redundant and aesthetically unappealing (IMO), I also don't see how it could aid readers, especially non-natives. The date of birth & death are both in the first sentence and so any one who understands arabic numerals will understand what that means. It would be no different than if it were on an infobox, so I don't understand how non-natives will understand the infobox (which itself is written in parameters in English..) as opposed to prose...

Anyways, heres my shot at the hook:

• ALT1 ... that Ernest Fanelli's composition Thèbes, written in 1886, utilizes musical elements considered to precurse Impressionism? Source: Adriano (2002). Anderson, Keith (ed.). "Fanelli: Symphonic Pictures - Bourgault-Duboudray: Rhapsodie cambodgienne | About this recording" (CD booklet). London: Marco Polo – via naxos.com.

- Wretchskull (talk) 12:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

fine by me --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)]

• pinging @Gerda Arendt, Onegreatjoke, and Wretchskull: I am not seeing that the suggested hook is in the article. If it is it is too disjointed to find. Can someone check this? Bruxton (talk) 20:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

  "Disjointed"?? - It's in one spot. look for "Thèbes is the piece that raised interest in the composer", there also the next sentence about the elements of Impressionism but this was before that term was used, therefore "precurse". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

It feels like an Easter egg hunt but I will promote it and hope that it is just my own issue. Bruxton (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• Leaving this for another promotor. Bruxton (talk) 22:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

  @Bruxton: The first paragraph states "Ernest Fanelli [...] is known for his works which have been considered as precursing Impressionism. He gained renown when his symphonic poem Thèbes premiered in Paris, a work incorporating elements associated with music ahead of its time, such as unique harmonies, extended chords, and polytonality". I don't understand the confusion.. Wretchskull (talk) 09:30, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  Wretchskull, the reviewer and promoter don't have to check where the fact is, but where it is with the reference, and that's not in the lead, but in the context I pointed out, and - yes - in an extended GA perhaps not trivial to find for someone not knowing what exactly to look for. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:30, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I was studying prep sets and researching hooks, reading articles etc. for too long yesterday. I am sure another editor can promote it after they check it out. Bruxton (talk) 14:58, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• Gerda Arendt You should green tick this again s that another promotor can have a look. Bruxton (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  (You could have removed the sign of your concern once it was settled.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2022 (UTC)