Talk:Estonian Native horse

Requested move 11 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that the proposed title will meaningfully improve clarity. Alternate proposal of "Estonian Klepper" was not discussed widely enough to attain consensus in either direction. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

---

Estonian Native → Estonian Native horse – Intolerably naturally ambiguous phrase. The capitalization of Native doesn't "save" it, either, especially with rise of [over-]capitalization in the left-leaning press of terms like "native" any time they are applied to humans. That is, to a significant population of readers, the phrase "Estonian Native" necessarily indicates "people native to the present or historical Estonia", i.e. Estonians (AKA Estonian people) and the culture of Estonia. This move will be entirely WP:CONSISTENT with many prior moves of animal breed articles with names that appeared to refer to human populations, to now include the species term at the end as a WP:NATURAL disambiguator (thus Argentine Criollo cattle, Messinese goat, Algerian Arab sheep, Indo-Brazilian cattle, Florida White rabbit, etc., etc. (Cf. in particular the mass-RMs: Talk:British White cattle#Requested moves 19 December 2014 and Talk:Anglo-Nubian goat#Requested moves). The capitalization presented here is correct per MOS:LIFE: the proper name of a standardized breed is capitalized, but the species name used after it as a disambiguator is not, unless that word is itself part of the formal breed name because it would be confusingly ambiguous without it even outside of an encyclopedic context (as in the case of Norwegian Forest Cat which is not a Scandinavian woodland, and American Quarter Horse which is not a coin). PS: I would not create an Estonian native (disambiguation) page, but instead put a {{Redirect|Estonian Native|people native to Estonia|Estonian people}} hatnote template at the top of this breed article, since there are only two subjects to disambiguate.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. asilvering (talk) 23:56, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom, to be consistent with other articles per WP:Criteria, and is the natural disambiguation WP:NATDIS Kowal2701 (talk) 12:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support: As an editor who works in the horse breed topic area, the proposed name is consistent with many horse breed article titles.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, instead move it to Estonian Klepper per WP:NATURAL, "... an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title" and sources such as Mason's World Dictionary of Livestock Breeds, Types, and Varieties, fifth edition, page 178, or some of the usual Google-book salad.

The suggestion that "Estonian Native" (so capitalised) might refer to a person born in Estonia appears to be purely vexatious – how many instances of that usage have you identified, SMcCandlish? I found not one in a brief search on Scholar (first ten pages only).

Anyway, the need for this discussion is my fault, because it turns out we have a page on Estonian native cattle (I'm guessing it's because of the different capitalisation that I didn't find that when preparing to move this in 2020). I was careless, I apologise. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

You disagreeing with a rationale is no justification for turning insulting with terms like "vexatious". You have been personalizing these minor breed-disambiguation quibbles to an extreme degree for about a decade now, and this needs to stop. Your objection is off-base, anyway; we engage in disambiguation based on prediction of reader understanding/expectations/confusion, and this has nothing to do with what RS on a topic prefer, but whether readers (often entirely unfamiliar with the subject) will parse a title correctly. It's already been explained in detail why "Estonian Native[s]" is likely to be parsed as a human-population reference by many readers, and we already have a solid RM track record of disambiguating in such cases, so you're basically just trying to overturn already settled precedent on a WP:IDONTLIKEIT basis. Rather, RS usage is what determines what the WP:COMMONNAME is and whether some stylization should be applied to that common name. Moving on, the very fact that there's an Estonian native cattle article (which should almost certainly be Estonian Native cattle) is itself further evidence this needs to be disambiguated, not an argument against disambiguating it (the proposed way or any other way). As for Estonian Klepper, is there any evidence that this is "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources" and not a rare alternative? If so, then I would have no objection to it as an alternative to Estonian Native horse. But the latter should definitely be used if it's overwhelmingly the most common term. These breed is obscure enough in English-language materials that this might be difficult to demonstrate one way or the other (no Google Ngrams results https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Estonian+Native+horse%2CEstonian+Native+Horse%2CEstonian+native+horse%2CEstonian+Klepper%2CEstonian+klepper&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3]), but so far the results are not at all promising for "Estonian Klepper(s)" in journals: this phrase turns up only 4 times in Google Scholar [1] (plus 6 for "Klepper horse(s)" with or without "Estonian" prefixed [2]), while "Estonian Native horse(s)" (with one capitalization or another) is in 72 sources [3]. I think this demonstrates we should move this to Estonian Native horse. PS: It becomes clear via those searches that futher alternative names we are not accounting for in our article are "ENH" as an acronym, "Estonian Native pony", "Klepper horse" without "Estonian" in front of it, and "[Estonian] Klepper pony", possibly also "Estonian Native pony", though I did not look around for that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Equine has been notified of this discussion. asilvering (talk) 23:56, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:33, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I DGAF as to capitalization, but I do think the confusion with humans is a good reason. If someone later wants to move to Estonian Klepper and can present adequate sourcing to justify widespread use, that could be discussed later and might be worth considering. I think the immediate need is to just get the confusion cleared up. Montanabw^(talk) 14:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:bots|deny=Citation bot

This is completely unnecessary. I removed it [4] then ran Citation bot on the article [5]. There were no changes by Citation bot. Leave it out of the article.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 23:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Further explanation is at User talk:Justlettersandnumbers § Denying access for Citation bot.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)