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Talk:Ethel Hedgeman Lyle/Archive 1

< Talk:Ethel Hedgeman Lyle
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Primefac in topic Corrected an error/Name Change
Archive 1

Suggestions

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've added some more historic context and additional sources, but mostly restructured this to emphasize her public life and achievements. It may be useful as editors work on other founders of Alpha Kappa Alpha.--Parkwells (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Background of college attendees among whites and blacks

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"At a time when only 5% of whites attended college, she and fellow founders were even more of an elite, among the one-third of 1% of African Americans who attended any college in the early 1900s. Howard University was considered one of the top two historically black colleges. [1] The leadership of Hedgeman in establishing and guiding the sorority has continued to generate social capital."

I added this to provide the context for why these women were each achievers and remarkable in their time. It may need expansion - I think it would be useful to have other info in the article about numbers of teachers, or additional data from Ethel Hedgeman Lyle's Philadelphia years, but I think the background on the early 1900s is critical to making sense of their time and would like to have it added back or reverted.--Parkwells (talk) 20:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ James D. Anderson, The Education of Blacks in the South, 1860-1935. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1988, 245.

Normal School ???

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

UHM ... JUST WHAT DID THIS CONTRIOBUTOR MEAN BY THEIR USE OF THE PHRASE -- “A NORMAL SCHOOL”-- ??!?!?!?!!!!!!

THAT SOUNDS PRETTY RACIST TO ME !!!!!!


””She was the first African-American female college graduate to teach in a normal school in Oklahoma ...””

SOURCE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethel_Hedgeman_Lyle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.31.167 (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Normal Schools were schools for training elementary school teachers, part of a school system based on the German model. In the beginning, they might have been something like a finishing school or community college. Most were expanded with 4-year college curriculums and became teachers colleges, and then often full state universities. --Parkwells (talk) 21:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
An explanation of the name is at normal school to which the article now links (I haven't checked when that link was made but a little research on your part would have found the article).
I note the use of capitals, which on the Internet is termed shouting. Readers' Digest once commented The difference between a prejudice and a conviction is, you can explain a conviction without getting mad. Food for thought? Andrewa (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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"Hedgemon"

Latest comment: 2 years ago29 comments7 people in discussion

Recently a lot of IPs have been changing "Hedgeman" to "Hedgemon" without citing any sources. One of these users claims: "Her name throughout her life and even today was often mispronounced and thought to be Hedgeman, however, research of her birth certificate and marriage license have confirmed the correct spelling of her name as Hedgemon." I have not been able to locate either of the documents mentioned, but I have found sources that spell her name as Hedgemon: the "founders" page on the official AKA website (which is already being cited in the article), and the fall 1967 issue of The SPHINX, page 31. A clear majority of sources use Hedgeman, and thus that should be the primary spelling used, but at what point would it be worth mentioning in the article that it is sometimes spelled Hedgemon? Someone else should try researching this too, it would be nice to find something that would allow us to report on and explain this discrepancy. Alecnotalex (talk) 17:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Her name is also spelled as Hedgemon in the October 1908 Howard University Journal, page 4. Alecnotalex (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for starting this discussion. Note. On January 4th of this year it was Hedgeman on the AKA website: https://web.archive.org/web/20220104015135/https://aka1908.com/about/founders , by January 15th of this year, it Hedgemon https://web.archive.org/web/20220115171607/http://aka1908.com/about/founders . I'm going to try to reach out to AKA HQ today. I'm not saying their decision should be followed, I'm saying that it probably should be weighted heavily. Regardless of which way it is, there should probably be (ironically), an Also Known As (AKA) for the other name.Naraht (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
-- Here due to cross-post at WT:FRAT-- WP:COMMONNAME seems pretty clear on the issue; there are 12k+ Google hits for "Ethel Hedgeman Lyle" and 172 for "Ethel Hedgemon Lyle", and most of the latter are either generic genealogy websites or AKA (though I find "Hedgeman" also on AKA's sites). Keep as-is, protect if necessary, and (for those IPs who are insistent it has an "o") start an RM if it's that big of a deal. Primefac (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Having said that, if Alpha Kappa Alpha nationally has changed the spelling, the question of whether chapter webpages (alumni and UG chapter) should count on the Hedgeman side (I have little doubt they will change to reflect National).Naraht (talk) 16:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
PrimefacReached out to AKA, had a discussion about that. Submitted a request for exactly what sources they used for the change. Note, everything I can find about her publishing by Howard University during her time there is Hedgemon, not Hedgeman, but RL has gotten in the way from making a formal MFD. Honestly, I think AKA national is the ne that screwed up the name 40-50 years ago and now is trying to unscrew it.Naraht (talk) 10:10, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
I assume you mean WP:RM, not MFD, but either way I think an actual discussion is necessary rather than SPAs attempting to ram it through. Primefac (talk) 10:50, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
Primefac Yes, RM. Naraht (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
I've done some minor formatting on your post, but no actual content changes. (please do not ping on reply) Primefac (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

RM Sources

Sources for spelling Hedgemon: Official change by AKA website

Howard University 1906-1909

National Magazine of Alpha Phi Alpha

TV Story Using the Hedgemon spelling that AKA National has changed to.

Other

I tried doing a google trends comparison of "Alpha Kappa Alpha" Hedgemon with "Alpha Kappa Alpha" Hedgeman , but it indicated not enough information. Doing google searches as of this moment on "Alpha Kappa Alpha" "Hedgemon" gives 4,040 hits and "Alpha Kappa Alpha" "Hedgeman" gives 8,880 hits. So, IMO, not an overwhelming ruling on commonname.Naraht (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 4 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. Consensus that there is no clarity from reliable sources on the "correct" name - WP:COMMONNAME and precedent default to no move.(non-admin closure) Ganesha811 (talk) 20:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Ethel Hedgeman Lyle → Ethel Hedgemon Lyle – See the above discussion; apparently her sorority has been mis-typing her name for 100 years and is just now trying to retcon everything. (please do not ping on reply) Primefac (talk) 15:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ---CX Zoom(he/him) (let's talk|contribs) 06:26, 4 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:56, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

  • For the record, I'm mostly on the "status quo" side of the fence (see my 21 Jan comments in the top section about Google and COMMONNAME); it would also be a bit awkward if a school was using the wrong spelling of her name. Primefac (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
    • True, but that school was created by Alpha Kappa Alpha, Sorority Inc. themselves (through one of their alumni chapters) during the time that they were using Hedgeman. (I normally avoid "Sorority, Inc." but in this case it applies specifically to the Incorporated entity)Naraht (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
    • Oppose per Paine's analysis below. Primefac (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
  •   Comment: I don't have a firm opinion one way or another. This might be a stretch but WP:NAMECHANGES could apply here, which says that sources written after a name change should be given more weight than sources before a name change. Assuming that this counts as a name change, we still might have to wait considering how few sources have been published after the change. WP:COMMONNAME is the strongest argument against the requested move, but it does mention that "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." Perhaps AKA is a reliable enough source for determining that "Hedgeman" is inaccurate, and thus should be avoided even if it's more frequently used in RSs? Also, since most people searching for Lyle on Wikipedia are probably affiliated with AKA, who would now be using the spelling "Hedgemon", perhaps the naturalness naming criterion ("The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for [...]") applies? That's mostly speculation though, I guess I'm just trying to come up with the best available support arguments considering the pretty glaring COMMONNAME oppose argument. Alecnotalex (talk) 17:52, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
    • Actually, in this case, you have the "Hedgemon" as indicated in the Howard University sources while she was a student, but I have yet to find any sources that indicated that she personally used "Hedgeman" at any time during her life, so I'm not sure that WP:NAMECHANGE applies. Since this is a case where Alpha Kappa Alpha started using an incorrect spelling and then changed back. So, the question is what sources support "Hedgeman" at this point? (and given that at this point (unlike a week ago), the Hedgeman occurances on the web only outnumber Hedgemon by about 2-1, the question is how close does it have to get to equality before COMMONNAME no longer applies as an argument?Naraht (talk) 18:36, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
      You're right about NAMECHANGE, it doesn't really make sense here; my thinking wasn't that her name ever actually changed, just that the name used by the organization (which is about as close as we have to an "official name") changed. The fact that all sources published during her life say "Hedgemon" is a pretty strong case for the move. I think the COMMONNAME oppose argument here is that even though we have reason to believe most of the sources cited in the article, along with pretty much all RSs published in the last ~50 years, use the wrong name, it's still a majority of sources using the name. Comparing Google search results for "Ethel Hedgeman Lyle" to "Ethel Hedgemon Lyle" gives me a ratio of about 34:1 (14,100 to 411). Google Scholar comes up with several publications that use "Hedgeman", but none that use "Hedgemon". Same with a search in Google Books. It does make sense to overrule that majority since those RSs are based on a source (AKA) that we now know to have been mistaken, though, and since all recent sources have started using "Hedgemon" again. Alecnotalex (talk) 19:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
  • It seems fairly clear-cut to me on the evidence presented. The only consideration is what the accurate spelling is. Wikipedia should be having accurate information that is verifiable. Counting Google Web hits is an absurd way of deciding anything, given how the Google hit count is made up. Deciding to repeat an error because it is "common" is entirely wrongheaded — People don't want encyclopaedias to be in the business of reinforcing incorrect information because it is merely popular (not that Google hit counts tell you this — They aren't actually counts, for starters.). They come to encyclopaedias to find out what's correct. If the accurate spelling is "Hedgemon" then that's what Wikipedia should tell people. As for the "but Google Books!" argument: Do not count the hits: look at what the books actually are. Chamblis Bullock 2014 is on the first page for me. It is self-published by an amateur historian who was a Sorority officer, via AuthorHouse. The very next one down, Banks Gayden 2014, turns out to be another amateur historian Sorority member using AuthorHouse. Actually read the book, even only as far as the blurb on its cover, and it becomes apparent that these books only exist (and have the same publication year) because the president of the sorority requested that chapters produce some history books.

    A useful trick that I sometimes employ is adding "inpublisher:university". In this case it yields books with likely better quality scholarship. At least it yields books that cite their sources. Checking out the first one in Google Books' list reveals that its own source is another book from a Sorority historian, published by the Sorority itself back in 1975. Marjorie Holloman Parker was at least a credentialed historian. But Google Books doesn't tell us what spelling MHP used, or what relationship MHP's scholarship had to the earlier 1948 Life of Alpha Kappa Alpha's Founder Given against Colorful Historical Background or to the Personal interview with EHL by one Sallie C. Boyer in a 1941 edition of Ivy Leaf and what spellings they used. (These sources are cited by Clark Hine, Barkley Brown & Terborg-Penn 1993, p. 25.) It may in fact be that they, too, used the accurate spelling. But it seems more likely, given that sources all seem to come back to 1920s articles in Ivy Leaf by greater or lesser routes, that there isn't even a good source from a credentialed expert that cannot be found to have been influenced by an Ivy Leaf mistake a century ago.

    Never count search engine hits. Always read. Counting Google hits is not research.

    • Chamblis Bullock, Fannie (2014). Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. Gamma Delta Omega Chapter: Seventy-Five Years of Timeless Service. AuthorHouse. ISBN 9781496900371.
    • Banks Gayden, Lorraine (2014). The Alpha Kappa Alpha Presence in Southwest Mississippi: Timeless Service of Phi Mu Omega. AuthorHouse. ISBN 9781491853467.
    • Holloman Parker, Marjorie (1978). Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority: In the Eye of the Beholder. Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority.
    • Clark Hine, Darlene; Barkley Brown, Elsa; Terborg-Penn, Rosalyn, eds. (1993). "Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority". Black Women in America: An Historical Encyclopedia. Vol. 2. Carlson Publications. ISBN 9780926019614.
  • Uncle G (talk) 09:37, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
    Thank you for this. I'm quite new so I didn't know how policy was to be interpreted. I was under the impression that there were two issues here, one of what her real or "official" name was, which should be identified within the article as her real name, and another of what the article should be titled, which is supposed to be the most commonly recognizable name (even if not official). I'm assuming that I was wrong in applying a rule that was intended for issues like "aspirin" and "acetylsalicylic acid" to an issue of accuracy. (edit 17:04: changed example) Alecnotalex (talk) 16:56, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
    This isn't a debate about a drug or company, it's someone's name. If this discussion determines that her name was spelled with an "o", then we'll move the article accordingly; we wouldn't keep the "a" just because there are more Google hits. Primefac (talk) 17:13, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
    This is more or less why I included all of the references which occur at Howard University (including her in the graduation commencement program) *before* Alpha Kappa Alpha started publishing how her name was spelled. If someone has a source from somewhere other that traced back to Alpha Kappa Alpha which occurred before 1914 (to pick a date), at that point a discussion of what her actual name is would seem relevant, but much later than that, you end up with the question of whether the name just comes from Alpha Kappa Alpha's corporate screw-up. I've looked for copies of the "Ivy Leaf" online, but have not found many, and none which can be easily searched for text. And as a note, if we do move it to Hedgemon, the Hedgeman spelling should be kept as an R from mispelling.Naraht (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Came here to close, and decided to dig some instead. Found a pretty convincing spelling of her name and added the external link to the article. Please see Ethel Hedgeman Lyle at Find a Grave. Seems her family would have been making some change as well if EHL's name had been misspelled on her tombstone, don't you think? Based upon this bit of knowledge, I say we put off changing the title until better evidence is found. Gutsy lady if I may say so, she was a bit fragile, and yet nothing seemed to stop her. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 21:07, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose, for now at least. Using Newspapers.com, I looked for contemporary-ish results for both "Ethel Hedgeman" and "Ethel Hedgemon". Looking at the period from 1902-1952, there were 33 matches for "Hedgeman" and 27 for "Hedgemon". My non-scientific scan-through of the results suggests that they are all or nearly all about the subject of this article. The earliest result is a "Hedgeman" from 1902 in the St Louis Dispatch]. I would be happy to provide more clippings of the articles if needed. I don't think we can determine, based on the evidence we have on hand, that one spelling or the other is "correct". I'm not seeing, in the comments above, anything that suggests that the predominant usage of "Hedgeman" is based on a mistake. I therefore think we ought to use the spelling most common in the sources, "Hedgeman", for the title and include both spellings with an explanation about the discrepancy. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 20:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Next step

The discussion here seems to have petered out. Do we make the move, relist (not sure where, WP:FRAT?) or something else?Naraht (talk) 09:16, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

The page is listed on the RM page, it will be closed in due time. If you want to formally request a close, WP:ANRFC is the location to do so (though it might take just as long). Primefac (talk) 09:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Add a note?

I've closed the discussion with a consensus to NOT MOVE, but I think it would be reasonable to add a note immediately following her name, explaining the discrepancy in reliable sources. The redirect should stay in place too. I'm not great at referencing/notes or I'd do it myself. Ganesha811 (talk) 20:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Would people prefer an in-line explanatory note or a footnote? I could go either way. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 20:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
A parenthetical (sometimes spelled Hedgemon) would work fine. Primefac (talk) 20:37, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Name change

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

FYI — the family has requested for years to have her name correctly spell to HEDGEMON. The family has provided government documents proving the correct spelling. 2601:80:4601:2C00:6DD9:F607:FEE:941B (talk) 01:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Provided to whom? Which WP:RS details their plight? Primefac (talk) 10:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
To the Original Poster. I'm honestly someone who supports changing the spelling, *however*, the Sorority has done such a good job publicizing things under the full name with "Hedgeman" (including the grave marker the sorority provided apparently) that the number of RS that use Hedgemon is pretty small. In this case, Alpha Kappa Alpha itself is not a Reliable Source, the Sorority magazine might be, but that would have to be considered with Conflict of Interest. The Government Documents that the family has provided to Alpha Kappa Alpha *would* be a primary source, but those don't appear to be available. I'm not saying that those have to be on the internet, but that they be accessible in some way to the general public (For example, if Alpha Kappa Alpha said that anyone, even a non-sister, could make an appointment to come to Alpha Kappa Alpha Headquarters on Tuesday afternoons to see a copy of the Birth Certificate and Wedding announcement).
Honestly, what would be most likely to change the name of the article in a *heartbeat* would be for a non-Alpha Kappa Alpha run newspaper/tv channel/magazine cover the issue and support the use of Hedgemon. Honestly, the mention in Alpha Phi Alpha's Fall 1967 Sphinx with "Hedgemon" was in her name (talking about her and her Alpha husband George Lyle) was one of the data points in favor of changing it.
And I'd honestly like to see the story of the family's requests be told. Alpha Kappa Alpha itself doesn't appear to have been willing to make the change until within the last two years or so.Naraht (talk) 12:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Corrected an error/Name Change

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

this was looked at extensively, considering all arguments and reading all exant sources. Saintstephen000 (talk)

Indeed, and an RM was started, and the consensus was not to move. So I am really, seriously wondering why you did it. Primefac (talk) 07:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)


noted. Saintstephen000 (talk)

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