Talk:Ethiopian Jews in Israel

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Non-consensual Birth Control

Very recently it came to light that Israeli doctors, by order of the Israeli government, have been administering birth control to Ethiopian women without their consent (click here, here, and here). Should this be added to the article somewhere, possibly to the section on racism issues? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bardcollegerulez (talk • contribs) 03:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Could also be mentioned that despite the overwhelming importance of the event, It was only carried by one major newspaper (the independant) and was not mentioned at all in major news reports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.222.194 (talk) 12:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Added the topic "Non-consensual birth control" in the catagory "The absorption in Israel". Its true that first only The Independent released the latest news but there have been earlier reports too. One just editorial from The Jerusalem Post (December, 2012) has been cited. UncorneredSpeaker (talk) 09:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Stop using sources that have been refuted. The source behind the media's latest smearing campaign, Haaretz, have clarified what they said. It's incredibly sad that this kind of misinformation persists on the site so long.

You didn't sign your edit. Also, the article you link doesn't actually refute this. It's an opinion piece (lines like "It is insulting to the intelligence of Ethiopian women to believe that they did this for years at a time against their will" clearly demonstrate this, it's not pretending to be objective in the author's open personal critique of reports), and it makes several concessions, such as "Some said they were led to believe they would not be permitted to emigrate if they did not submit to the shots, others said that their objections to receiving them were ignored. Some women said they weren’t aware the shots were birth control - they thought they were vaccinations, and others said their complaints about disturbing side effects were ignored," and the author's own statement that she "believe[s] the women who told their stories to Gal Gabbai." The author clearly concedes, even in this opinion piece criticizing the reporting, that the women did indeed say they were given birth control non-consensually, and the author apparently believes them in spite of her critical stance. Albert Mond (talk) 23:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

In any case, Haaretz is a newspaper. It can not be used as a source on medical topics or history. Dimadick (talk) 09:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

It can be used as a source on news related to medical-related discrimination, actually. The thing being discussed isn't the medical efficacy of Depo-Provera, but rather particular state policy in administering that drug to immigrants. The medical effects of the drug itself are not what's in question here. Gender discrimination in the medical professions and Flint water crisis both cite several newspapers, for instance. Albert Mond (talk) 10:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

What should the name of this article be?

The user Greyshark09 has recently changed the name of this article from Ethiopian Jews in Israel to Beta Israel community in Israel although no discussion was held on this matter in which a consensus was achieved to do so. Moreover, he even added the following remark "though Jews is a disputed term, in favor of "Israelites" which in my opinion might be widely considered as a POV and offensive remark.

Either way, I have removed the controversial and baseless remark (Greyshark09, if you want to restore it please supply reliable sources which supports it). As for the name of the article, I suggest that we let the community participate in this discussion and specify what in their opinion would be the most accurate name for this article? Beta Israel community in Israel OR Ethiopian Jews in Israel (or maybe even a different name). TheCuriousGnome (talk) 19:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The main Wikipedia article is Beta Israel, suggesting that this article should be named the same way. On the other hand, "Ethoopian Jews" gets 379,000 ghits, 49,600 gbook hits, and 2,930 gscholar hits, whereas "Beta Israel" gets 270,000 ghits, 20,600 gbook hits and 1,040 gscholar hits, indicating that "Ethiopian Jews" is far more common than "Beta Israel", particularly in reliable sources. WP:COMMONNAME would suggest that both articles be named "Ethiopian Jews". Jayjg ^(talk) 20:02, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the remark is offensive and incorrect. Having said that, given that about a third of the Beta Israelis who live in Israel were born in Israel, the title Ethiopian Jews in Israel might be less accurate than Beta Israel community in Israel. Moreover, not all the Jews who came to Israel from Ethiopia were Beta Israeli. Some were descendants of Yemenite Jews and Ashkenazi Jews who used to reside at the major cities of Ethiopia. So we can either expand the article so as to also cover Ethiopian Jews who are not Beta Israeli, or dedicate this article exclusively to the Israeli Beta Israelis, both Israeli-born and Ethiopian-born. ליאור • Lior (talk) 20:05, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

As for Jayjg's remark, "Beta Israel" has been the common name for the Beta Israel community in the scientific literature for the past four decades. "Bete Israel" would be a more accurate transliteration (used among else by Yona Bogale and Kes Asres Yayehe), but the inaccurate one is already widespread. ליאור • Lior (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't be rediculous, how many Yemenite and Ashkenasi Jews came from Ethiopia? this is a clear WP:UNDUE.Greyshark09 (talk) 13:06, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

• Beta Israel is so rarely used in everyday speech (or by media outlets - a quick Google check shows 99 Beta Israels to 2,080 Ethiopian Jews in Haaretz, 362 to 2,980 in the Jerusalem Post and 30 to 341 in Ynetnews) that Ethiopian Jews in Israel is probably the best per WP:COMMONNAME. Number 57 21:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I myself an Ethiopian Jew. Beta Israel in Israrel call themselves Ethiopian Jews or simply Ethiopians (he: Athiopim), when they use the name "Beta Israel" they mean the same thing (Ethiopian Jews). Moreover, in other communities in Israel, Israelis and the immigrants themselves use the name of the country of origin, for example Moroccans (he: Marocaim) is the same for Beta Israel. Ever since the beginning of the relationship with world Jewry, Beta Israel are more and more use of the term Jews than Israelites (Esra'elawi). Everyone in Israel from the Beta Israel uses the term Jews and not Israelites, it is very rare that someone uses the term Israelites, to refer only to Beta Israel, when the Beta Israel use the term they mean to all Jewish people. For them the terms Israelites and Jews are the same. For example Bene Israel from India in Israel called themselves Indian Jews or simply Indians (he: Hodim), but they too not call themselves Israelites to separate themselves from the rest of the Jews. Only Black Hebrew Israelites (which not recognized as Jewish) in Israel call themselves the Israelites, and according to their claims there is differentiation between Jews and Israelites, but there is no connection between this group to the Ethiopian Jews. The name to the article should be Ethiopian Jews in Israel, to all sides.

Sorry for my English, hope you understand me. אדעולם (talk) 21:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Seems to have been fixed, but I wouldve supported "Ethiopian Jews in Israel".--Metallurgist (talk) 08:26, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

It is clear you wish to present your POV, and ensist for Ethiopian Jews to be related trictly as Jews, for a veriety of reasons abandoning the original naming of Beta Israel. The question is however, whether except your self-identification as an Ehiopian Jew, it is correct to rename a split page from Beta Israel into Ethiopian Jews in Israel, considering the reliable sources. I have already noticed you took care to remove all scientific mentioning of "Beta Israel", renaming into "Jews".

The other issue is whether calling you an "Ethiopian Jews" is correct, considering your residense in Israel and the fact that you might have even been born in Israel. I have not seen any article titled "Moroccan Jews in Israel" or "Yemenite Jews in Israel" or "Iraqi Jews in Israel". In addition, while in the media "Ethiopians" or "Ethiopian Jews" is widely used, in scientific literature the term is equivalent in use to "Beta Israel". Not withstanding that, the recognition of Beta Israel as Jews is disputed by much of the Orthodox Jewish leadership, even though the Sephardic chief rabbi did aknowlege this claim as a fact.Greyshark09 (talk) 12:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

@Gnome, how exactly "Israelites" is offensive? The term "Israelites" is applied to Samaritans, who claim descent from the tribes of Joseph and Levi, but not addmixed with Judah tribe until modern times. The ancestry claim of Beta Israel is varying from some claiming to be tribe of Judah, to others claiming the tribe of Dan. The term Jews was never used by the society itself until their immigration to Israel, when they were pressured to integrate into the mainstream Jewish society. See Who is a Jew?.Greyshark09 (talk) 13:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

We must choose the name most common among the members of the Jewish Ethiopian community in Israel. Wikipedia has to adapt to the existing consensus and not vice versa. I'll give you a different example - In the same way, one can argue that the article Arab citizens of Israel should actually be changed to Israeli-Arabs since it would be more accurate since that is the widely used term in Hebrew amongst the majority of Israelis (ערביי ישראל), and since in the English Wikipedia we have no other similar names for articles of other population groups in Israel (for example we do not have - Jewish citizens of Israel or Druze citizens of Israel, etc..). Nevertheless, I would be wrong to even suggest that since that is the common name which they want to be referred to as in English and they would be insulted if we even suggest to change it in Wikipedia. Hope you understand the reasoning better now. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 21:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

You are wrong, in the research literature Ethiopian Jews in Israel called Ethiopian Jews and NOT BETA ISRAEL. Only historical research literature used the name the Beta Israel to refer to Ethiopian Jews in Ethiopia, But these studies often mixed the all terms for example Ethiopian Jews=Habeshas Jews=Abyssinians Jews=Beta Israel =Falasha=Kayla=and etc. Very few general Use the name Beta Israel or Esra'elawi, I live in this community, I know the priests and the elders. Anyway, about the question who is a Jew? This general question of Rabbinical law. For Ethiopian in Israel the name Beta Israel or Jews of Ethiopia is the same thing! And not only they but also in other Jewish communities. Someone who says Beta Israel or Ethiopian Jews, It's the same thing.אדעולם (talk) 22:08, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Greyshark09, all the notable Rabbinical poskim have recognized the Beta Israel as Jews, except for the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe. Rabbi Feinstein and others have urged the Jewish people to save the Beta Israel from physical and spiritual annihilation, stressing in his own words that the color of skin is no excuse for delaying the urgently required assistance. Since there are rare cases in which gentiles expressed their wish to become Beta Israeli, and since the conversion they have undergone was not identical to the one practiced in Rabbinical Judaism, some poskim (including Rabbi Feinstein) have argued that an additional tevilah be taken to ascertain that *all* Beta Israelis are Jews according to the strictest of terms. This is known as "Giyur Le'Chumra", i.e. a symbolic supplementary conversion meant to remove any doubt. The comparison you've made to the Samaritans is ill-informed at best, since Samaritans must undergo full conversion before marrying a Jew.[1] Same goes for gentiles converted by Reform Jews and gentiles whose father is Jewish - they must undergo full conversion, unlike the Beta Israelis.

Given that Chabad cult is the only notbale stream in Judaism to have questioned the Jewish identity of the Beta Israeli community as a whole, and given that several notable poskim have seriously questioned the adherence of present-day Chabad to the Jewish faith (here and elsewhere), I see no reason to determine the name of this article according to Chabad's extremist point of view. ליאור • Lior (talk) 08:35, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

After reading through your long and touching liturgucal session, i have come to realize you are mainly driven by feelings and religious views, rather then WP guidelines and reliable sources. The discussion here is purely academic, not anything like you wish it to be.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your remarks on Habad, i would like to note your significant errors on the "Hokhma Bina ve-Da'at" Hasids (Habad) - first of all Habad is not a cult, but a mainstream Jewish religious subdivision, which is about 3 centuries old and has a significant number of followers and reputation among the Hasidic branches of Judaism (i would say around 2 million Jews are today affiliated with Habad). It has never been an "outcast", as you tried to present it. There was a small sub-section of Habad Lubavich followers with messianic aspirations who tried to present Menahem Mendel Sheerson as their "Meissah" in the 1990s and some of them still do this today, but they are regarded as a cult by the Habad members themselves. Calling Habad "extremists" is highly offensive, since the group is preaching peaceful coexistance and promoting dialogue among the Jews and with their neighbours, considered among the most pragmatic streams of Rabbinic Judaism. As a neutral side here, I would advice you to rewrite your accusations, which to me sound pretty much unbased and bullying.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I am absolutely convinced that this is the most common name for this population group in Israel (anyone from the Israeli Jewish community would be able to verify this claim). Although I do not agree with Greyshark09's suggestion, I do agree that we must comply with Wikipedia's policy and supply a reliable published source which verifies our claims. For this reason, I ask all those who support keeping the current name ("Ethiopian Jews in Israel") to provide an external reliable source or several sources (can be in English, Amharic or Hebrew - as long as it would be a reliable source), which would confirm that this is the common name for this population group both among the Israeli society AND among members of the Ethiopian Jewish community in Israeli in particular. Sincerely, TheCuriousGnome (talk) 23:31, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe also we change the religion paragraph of Ethiopian Jews to "Ancient Semitic practice" as Greyshark09 offers? What is this nonsense? What books did you read about the Ethiopian Jews? Academic discussion? So here:

• Emanuela Trevisan Semi & Shalva Weil (2011). Beta Israel: the Jews of Ethiopia and beyond History, Identity and Borders. Libreria Editrice Cafoscarina. ISBN 9788875432867
• Tudor Parfitt & Emanuela Trevisan Semi (2005). Jews of Ethiopia: the birth of an elite. Routledge. ISBN 0-415-31838-6
• Tudor Parfitt & Emanuela Trevisan Semi (1999). The Beta Israel in Ethiopia and Israel: studies on Ethiopian Jews. Routledge. ISBN 0-7007-1092-2
• Kaplan, Steven (1995). The Beta Israel (Falasha) in Ethiopia: From Earliest Times to the Twentieth Century. New York University Press. ISBN 0-8147-4664-0
• Quirin, James A. (1992). The Evolution of the Ethiopian Jews: a History of the Beta Israel (Falasha) to 1920. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 0-8122-3116-3
• There's even a academic association which called The Society for the Study of Ethiopian Jewry
• for more Beta Israel#Further reading

You see that even the Academy using the names the Beta Israel and the Jews of Ethiopia as the same thing. If you read articles and books in Hebrew, they use the names Jews of Ethiopia, Ethiopians, Ethiopian immigrants, Ethiopian, etc. In Israel is common to use the name of the country of origin as a community name, the Beta Israel in Israel use more the name Ethiopian Jews more than the name Beta Israel. see for example the community websites in Israel:

• Beta Israel: Society and Culture - Ethiopian Jews
• Ethiopian struggle
• Yopi - The Ethiopian Portal
• Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews
• Steering Center For Ethiopian Immigrants in the Education System
• Representatives of Ethiopian Jewish community organizations
• Even the Council of the Ethiopian Jewish priests (NOT Rabbis) in Israel is called "The Council of Ethiopian community priests" (מועצת הכהנים של העדה האתיופית)
• and more

אדעולם (talk) 22:41, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100622164125/http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/ehk1/Lancet_Ethiopian_blood.pdf to http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/ehk1/Lancet_Ethiopian_blood.pdf
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Absorption into Israel Section

As I was doing research about Ethiopian Jews' integration into Israeli society, I came across the fact that there was a month long strike in September of 1985. I want to add some information about this strike into the "Absorption into Israel" section. The strike occurred because many Ethiopian Jews became fed up with the policies Israel had in place for them once when they emigrated from Ethiopia to America. Some of these policies included a ritual conversion ceremony, a re-circumcision ceremony, and accepting Rabbinic law. The time the strike took place was over the course of high holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur which was interesting because it applied pressure to the Chief Rabbinate. I believe this strike and point in history is important to mention on this page because it shows more of the differences the Ethiopian Jews had with the Israeli Jews, and the plans the Israeli government made in order to manage the large number of Ethiopian Jews moving into Israel. <ref>Kaplan, S. "The Beta Israel and the Rabbinate: Law, Ritual and Politics." Social Science Information 27, no. 3 (1988): 357-70. doi:10.1177/053901888027003004.<ref>

Steven Kaplan is a leading scholar on the origins of Ethiopian Jews, and he is/ has been a professor at Hebrew University, and was the chairman of the African Studies department.

If anyone would like to comment on these changes, please let me know on either this talk page, or my own. I welcome any constructive comments.

Paris10041998 (talk) 04:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

There already are sections in this article on demonstrations in response to discrimination. Your information on the 1985 strike would fit in better there than in the absorption section, which barely has any mention of strife. Make sure your contribution fits in organically with what is already in the article, particularly chronologically. Also, can you clarify why Ethiopians were so bothered by the ceremonies imposed on them, because that isn't self-evident. Finally, avoid making statements about things being "interesting" - this is an encyclopedia for facts, while "interesting" is a subjective evaluation.Chapmansh (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Gramatical error

Well, I was going to fix it but due to the edit block, I can't. The following sentence contains an easily fixed grammatical error.

 This operation was followed by the a few weeks later, which was conducted by the U.S. Air Force, in which the 494 Beta Israel refugees remaining in Sudan were evacuated to Israel.

Robert Brockway (talk) 14:09, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Done since the edit protection was removed. Robert Brockway (talk) 09:17, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Mt name is yohans mhiret

So am live in ethiopia ,in general my grandfather live in iserael so i like find we all parents file.how? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.190.60.121 (talk) 09:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)