Talk:Ezhava/Archive 10

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Archive 10

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 March 2022 (2)

I do feel that the upper sections within the community are not at all mentioned on the page, the page mentions more about the political and social movements of the community rather than the community in detail.Their lifestyle as well as culture is also not at all mentioned ,while it is mentioned in other pages Hence i would like to add the line,

Wealthy landlords as well as upper sections within the community were awarded honorific titles such as panicker from the local rulers.These people lived in nalukettu, had their own private temples and owned huge amount of land . "

Source : Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2000). Social Mobility in Kerala: Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press. p. 55. ISBN 978-0-7453-1693-2.

Source in detail : Social mobility in kerala, page no 55, second paragraph . These people played a huge role in the community, but the page is not mentioning them.This is mentioned in the page panicker , but not mentioned in this page .Hence i request you to add this after veryfying the sources, so that the contentcan be detailed and improved . Bilgiljilll (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

The reason why i am asking to add this is because till the early 20th century ezhavas constituted around 33 percent of kerala , The community was diverse and almost all important people hails from the titled section, i dont see any mention of these community and their living style and information in the page . Hemce i feel it is important to add these Bilgiljilll (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Can u check please ? Bilgiljilll (talk) 06:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done R.C^{Outlander07@talk} 14:57, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 june 2022

Thiyyar Regiment

Can anyone add about Thiyyar Regiment to the page?

May be you can add after this line in the second para of leading section.

It may goes like this :

Ezhava dynasties such as the Mannanar existed in Kerala.[13] The Chekavar, a warrior section within the Ezhava[11] community, served the army of the Chera dynasty; there were also renowned Kalaripayattu experts among Chekavars.[14][15].Britishers also formed the Thiyyar Regiment in Malabar during the colonial rule.

 Not done, Please cite reliable sources with your requested changes. Grabup (talk) 17:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Required change with sources are :

Add this in the second para of leading section:

Britishers also formed the Thiyyar Regiment in Malabar during the colonial rule. There were lesser known Thiyya regiments and Thiyyar Pattalam formed by the French and British governments in Mahe and Thalassery. The British deployed the unit in various military operations.

 Done, I don't about this topic. If it doesn't relevant enough to this article then it can be deleted. Grabup (talk) 02:14, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

 Note: I have closed this edit request after being maked done. Terasail^[✉️] 18:09, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Correction

Hello, I noticed huge misinformation in the custom section of this page. which is copied below

Polygamy was practiced within certain parts of the Ezhava community but has since died out. There are several proposed arguments for this, the Valiyagraman Ezhavas argue that they practiced it for economic reasons, the argument that the older brother would marry first, and share his wife with his younger brother(s) until they could afford to marry. It was also common for one of the brothers to be away for long periods.[47]

Reason : This contradicts with older and and officially accepted sources like caste and tribes of southern India, caste, and tribes, etc which are published more early .caste and tribes even mementions that polygamy or polyandry is not seen in the community .when such statements are found in more legit sources, I feel it's very inaccurate and contradictory to mention this with a single source as it leads to misinformation. This seems to be added a few months ago and seems to be inaccurate. the source from very recently published books like Osella alone cannot be taken as a custom.Also the book says about a very small village called valiagram that too with no much credibility , this cant be generalised as the community is keralas largest ethnicity .so I request you to remove the statement as its very irrelevant here. Bilgiljilll (talk) 16:44, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 August 2022

I would like to remove the following paragraph from the custom section .

There are several proposed arguments for this, the Valiyagraman Ezhavas argue that they practiced it for economic reasons, the argument that the older brother would marry first, and share his wife with his younger brother(s) until they could afford to marry. It was also common for one of the brothers to be away for long periods.

This is only based on a single source. And valiyagramam is a small village or a sub village which dont even have a proper identity ,hence the usage of valiyagramam ezhavas are improper and confusing . hence i would like to remove this sentence from the section as it will create more confusion and misinformation as contradictory views are present in more older books. The question of who is and what is valiyagramam remain as a question and creates clarity issues and it dont have multiple source. Bilgiljilll (talk) 09:02, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:38, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I have already raised this issue as a talk , the reason is this being irrelevant ,Here the mentioned "valiyagram" is a very small place without a proper recognizable identity. the observation from a small region cannot be called a custom of a large ethnicity when other detailed marriage customs and further rituals are not mentioned in the article also this is misinformation and contradicting and lacks proper sources than a single one.It can be regional than ethnical, it completely lacks clarity here Bilgiljilll (talk) 20:19, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem is who is valiagraman ezhavas and where is valiyagram creates inconsistency and confusion also this small sample cannot be taken as a custom of an entire community . The caste and tribes of cochin in its book say adultery is very rare aming the community, which means that this is very rare and irrelevant. Bilgiljilll (talk) 20:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Bilgiljilll (talk) 20:53, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Bilgiljilll (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Reference provided contradictory statements from more credible sources . cochin caste and tribes pg no. 300 second paragraph says, "Adultery is very rare among ezhavas as it is regarded with abhorrence". Which can be very much contradictory, while the mentioned paragraph existes as a custom of this article. Bilgiljilll (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2022

I would suggest to move the recently added paragraph :

Britishers also formed the Thiyyar Regiment in Malabar during the colonial rule.[16][17][18][19] There were lesser known Thiyya regiments and Thiyyar Pattalam formed by the French and British governments in Mahe and Thalassery.[20] The British deployed the unit in various military operations.[21]

To the "martial tradition" sub section in the past occupation section. This would give better clarity to what the paragraph is talking about, other wise it is a mess in the intro section . Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. In particular, the WP:LEAD is to serve as an article summary. Izno (talk) 19:51, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Formating mess

I would suggest to move the recently added paragraph :

Britishers also formed the Thiyyar Regiment in Malabar during the colonial rule.[16][17][18][19] There were lesser known Thiyya regiments and Thiyyar Pattalam formed by the French and British governments in Mahe and Thalassery.[20] The British deployed the unit in various military operations.[21]

To the "martial tradition" sub section in the past occupation section. This would give better clarity to what the paragraph is talking about, other wise it is a mess in the intro section. 2409:4073:85:9536:D3F9:9E8B:79CD:D5D5 (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Format

The martial tradition section of this article is almost empty and the recently added last paragraph .

Britishers also formed the Thiyyar Regiment in Malabar during the colonial rule.[16][17][18][19] There were lesser known Thiyya regiments and Thiyyar Pattalam formed by the French and British governments in Mahe and Thalassery.[20] The British deployed the unit in various military operations.[21]

Is almost irrelevant to the main oaragraoh please move it to the martial tradition . Bilgiljilll (talk) 06:25, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The martial tradition sub section in the section past occupation perfectly suits this other wise it is a mess in the intro section . Bilgiljilll (talk) 06:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

It's very irrelevant in the first introduction section every community have such regiments made by the British but that is usually added in sub-sections. Bilgiljilll (talk) 06:33, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

No need. The format is fine. Doesn’t effect anything related to formatting, and this is for to lower the weight of the article from some other caste members as they don’t have any martial traditions.They need to destroy the history and look like they don’t have any history infront of others. Only Nairs and Ezhava have martial tradition and is historically important.

Not every caste has regiments created by British, only few castes(some 20 out of 1000 Indian caste) have regiments created by British, and is important as being an avarna caste.

Some caste people need to destroy ezhava and nair caste history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:69C0:5120:3104:F986:6F3C:A3EA:4923 (talk) 13:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Mistakes of Wikipedia

Are ezhava caste are not comeing from sre Lanka. They are come from Iran . Ezhava caste and jaat caste are same (DNA). Ezhava caste are the king of villavar (villavars are not tamilans) ezhavan are first empire of Kerala. Then Aryans are attacked all over.its Know as Arya valkkaranum . Then Aryans are attacking villavar. The villavr are billived in buddisun , jinisum,and theyr Trimble god. 2409:4073:4D92:E070:6D59:2B94:1F9B:5587 (talk) 10:28, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Hinduism template

As this is a Indian Hindu caste, please add the respective template to the article:

{{Hinduism}} Bijiigil (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: That is not an appropriate use case for the template — hako9 (talk) 07:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Why both pages are different

Thiyya page should show the below details

https://ml.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%A4%E0%B5%80%E0%B4%AF%E0%B5%BC 103.72.179.69 (talk) 17:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Thiyya search is currently redirecting to Ezhava. Please make English translation of below page in English. https://ml.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%A4%E0%B5%80%E0%B4%AF%E0%B5%BC 103.72.179.69 (talk) 17:34, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Different language Wikipedias are entirely independent from one another. You'll need to be much more specific if you wish to make an edit request; please follow instructions at WP:ER. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:37, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Enathinatha nayannar was an ezhava warrior

Enathinathar was a chola military general from ezhava caste. Kindly add it in martial tradition. Bibliographic information Title Periya Puranam: The Story of 63 Saivite Saints Translated by R. Rangachari Edition 3 Publisher Sri Ramanasramam, 2008 ISBN 8182880866, 9788182880863 Length 358 pages 2402:3A80:1CBA:62EA:93F:41E7:A86A:58E2 (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 February 2023

1. Kindly remove parts describing ezhavas as toddy tappers. (Under inscriptions) Toddy tapping was the primary job of the Thandan community which currently falls under Scheduled Castes in India (Not Ezhava Thandan as mentioned in the first paragraph). Even now in Kerala, Thandans constitute the majority of the toddy tappers. Evidently on the other side, many Ezhavas owned toddy shops where were toddy was collected from the Thandans. The 18th reference is unrelaible with misleading translation. Eelat–cheri means the toddy shop, Eelap–poodchi means the tax on sold toddy, Eelath–chanran means the one who procures toddy, not the one who taps. A wikipedia page is yet to be created for this Thandan community. 2. Related Ethnic Groups should include Jat Sikh. It is proven by CSIR’s Center for Cellular Molecular Biology, Hyderabad. Bloom544566 05:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Please see reliable sources. --RegentsPark (comment) 14:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 March 2023

Can you add this photo of Thiyya men and women, from Basel Mission,1761 ? This is a colorful painting with much details.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pictorial_Depiction_of_a_Thiyar_Couple.jpg

128.164.107.227 (talk)

 Not done - need more information. Please format the edit as if you were going to make it on the article and let us know exactly where in the source you want it inserted below, then reactivate the edit request. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@User:Xaosflux This can be added in the section 'past occupation'. The photo also asserts that Thiyyar were of Hindu religion from the sandalwood paste on forehead, hands and chest.

 Question: There is already a somewhat similar image in that section; are you suggesting it be removed? As xaosflux mentioned, please be precise with your suggestions. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

i would say , keep the current pic as it is, and add this under the caption thiyya men and women of Malabar 1761 painting.

As ezhava of south and thiyya in Malabar region has differences in belief and tradition and is evident from the pic. 128.164.107.231 (talk) 16:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Actualcpscm (talk) 18:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 March 2023

These image name [1] , [2] are not named properly.

Edit requests for changing to original captions for 1. 'A Ezhava girl, 1898' to 'A Thiyya girl, 1898'

2.'The traditional wedding attire of Ezhava bridegroom and companions with raised swords in hand shows their martial lineage, 1912' to 'The traditional wedding attire of Thiyya bridegroom and companions with raised swords in hand shows their martial lineage, 1912' 2606:69C0:5120:310D:F9F6:ED56:358B:D9CC (talk)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 15:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Thanks for your edit. You missed to add a line from the previous caption for this image [3] at [[Ezhava] page. This is important as the article says about the martial tradition as well.

The exact caption is also mentioned in the edit request in the talk page, but unfortunately you missed the later part of the caption when editing the caption.

The exact caption should be now from the previous caption is : 'The traditional wedding attire of Thiyyar bridegroom and companions with raised swords in hand shows their martial lineage, 1912'

can you make make this complete caption for the image in the Ezhava page ?

76.151.62.4 (talk)

I didn't add it because it's WP:OR that was introduced to Commons by a passing IP. M.Bitton (talk) 11:49, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 13:38, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 April2023

In the first paragraph it is written as FROM :

"The Malabar Ezhava[9] group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the others, although from the perspective of the colonial and subsequent administrations they were treated as being of similar rank"

This should be edited TO :

"The Malabar Thiyyar[9] group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the others, although from the perspective of the colonial and subsequent administrations they were treated as being of similar rank"

In the references it is Thiyyar also As in Malabar the class is called Thiyyar and separate identity exists. 128.164.107.235 (talk)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Izno (talk) 17:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Request to add density map Image to the article.

Please add this image to the article.

File:Ezhavas of South Asia.png

Density of Ezhava population in India

I believe it would be appropriate to add this image under "Spiritual and social movements", on the right side after the second last paragraph. Thank you Malayalee0121 (talk) 15:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a conflict of interest (WP:COI) for this article? If yes, remember that it needs to be declared clearly per the relevant policy linked above. If not, consider editing the source of this section and changing {{request edit}} to {{Edit extended-protected|Ezhava|answered=no}}; the former is the COI request template, the latter is the extended-confirmed protected request template. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:19, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Actualcpscm for identifying the wrong template. I do not have a conflict of interest. Malayalee0121 (talk) 01:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lightoil (talk) 04:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Edit Request

Please add the following to the article under "Position in society" Add this as a second paragraph,

With the social, political and economical changes and the higher aspiration among the Ezhava community members, they became one of the most dominant communities. There are several politicians, scientists, artists, business tycoons, and mainstream elites from the community. Ezhavas among other agrarian and allied service castes such as Kammas, Naidus, Reddys, Rajus, Gounders, Nadars, Patidars, Marathas, and Ramgarhias were included as business communities due to the changes in India's commercial ethos. Ezhavas are recently been referred to "malayalee Marvadis" mentioning them of having the similar status to the historical Vaishya community Marwari people. Malayalee0121 (talk) 16:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Malayalee0121 (talk) 01:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: The book you provided as a reference didn't include any such information. DreamRimmer (talk) 10:17, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Request to add an Image

Please add this picture of Hortus Malabaricus, which has tremendous contribution from the Famous Ezhava Ayurveda Physician Itty Achudan. I believe it is appropriate to insert under Medicine and traditional toxicology. Thank you. 96.52.140.223 (talk) 04:33, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The Medicine and traditional toxicology section in this article is very short and an illustration just to highlight that section would not improve the article. Moreover, the image you've suggested is already included on the article for that book, which is linked to from the Medicine and traditional toxicology section of this article. In any event, the top half of the article is very image-heavy and another image is not needed. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Confusion in lead

The lead says 'The Malabar Ezhava group have claimed higher ranking in hindu caste system than do the others.'

This gives impression that the comparison is between Ezhava and other castes of Kerala.

But the source in sentence says this comparison is between the various Ezhava groups.

So the lead sentence should be, 'The Malabar Ezhava group has claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than the other Ezhava groups.' FloridaFlower (talk) 08:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Channar

The titled surname Channar is not in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Channar12 (talk • contribs) 02:12, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hi,

From the past discussions it is clear that the admins consider both ezhava and thiyya to be synonymous and the page tiyya was redirected to the main page ezhava, as it covers both information. in multiple articles also ezhava and thiyyas are synonymously used.

however seems like, few days back a separate page is created Tiyyar is recently created (removed redirection ) by vilating this . the page contradicts most of the contents of this page . i think this page need to be split up , instead of this contradiction as the recently formed page violates all the content and is trying to create a low quality duplicate copy of the same from recent news articles claimig both are distinct and there is no info about the main page ezhava in the page tiyyar. this need to be discussed or else this page need to be split up as it is confusing the readers and is contradicting itself. The new page even claim them to be a distinct ethnicity ? So how this is possible from both pages ? Kindly look into this . Lisa121996 (talk) 04:03, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@SSSB Can you please check into this ? Lisa121996 (talk) 04:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 June 2024

Can you add Kattan dynasty also in the lead here as (explicitly mentioning thiyyar dynasties here as they were both are thiyyar dynasty from Malabar):

Thiyyar dynasties such as the Mannanar and Kattan dynasty existed in Kerala. 207.96.13.12 (talk) 13:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Neither Mannanar or Kattan should be in the WP:LEAD as the article is currently written, the lead is supposed to be a summary of the body. I have no informed opinion on if they belong in the article or not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

they both belong to the thiyya caste which comes under ezhava article. so in order to show their socio polical background it is important to keep in the lead, considering this caste is one of the backward low caste and faced caste discrimination in the past from upper caste. It highlight their history of having dynasties in the past and later becoming a lower caste due to suppression . 207.96.13.12 (talk) 19:51, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes should be added 161.30.201.16 (talk) 07:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Geardona (talk to me?) 01:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding Thiyya info to Ezhava first paragraphs

There are 2 requested edits for this page:

Firstly, Many attempts to make sepearate page for Thiyya are there, including new one at Tiyyar. It maybe becoz of representation issue. So maybe we can add the following information in lead paragraph-

Ezhavas are also known as Thiyya or Tiyyar in the Malabar region.

Secondly, in the same lead paragraph it says that "The Malabar Ezhava group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the others..." but the source says that both Pullapilly and Kodoth explains that this comparison is only within the Ezhava groups, not with the other groups of Kerala. This also create the confusion. So i suggest this change-

From X: The Malabar Ezhava group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the others, although from the perspective of the colonial and subsequent administrations they were treated as being of similar rank.

To Y: The Malabar Ezhava group have claimed a higher ranking in the Hindu caste system than do the other Ezhava groups, although from the perspective of the colonial and subsequent administrations they were all treated as being of similar rank. Piyush Chekavar (talk) 06:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Seems reasonable,  Done. I modified the wording of the last sentence of the opening as it was grammatically incorrect, but your change has been included. Garsh (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

properly attributing thiyya

1.As it is called as 'Thiyya' in Malabar District part of kerala and there are arguments of differences in ethnicity and culture which is included in the lead itself, also from the source in the lead para it should have to be : "The Malabar Thiyyar group has claimed a higher rank in the Hindu caste system than the other Ezhava groups but was considered to be of a similar rank by colonial and subsequent administrations."

2.Also Mannanar dynasty and Kattan dynasty were thiyya dynasty from malabar. so it should have to be : Thiyyar dynasties such as the Mannanar and Kattan dynasty existed in Kerala

3. It should be specified where the community is the largest. Here : where in the 2010s they constituted about 23% of the population and were reported to be the largest Hindu community , it should be added 'in kerala'

From X: The Ezhavas, also known as Thiyya or Tiyyar in the Malabar region, are a community with origins in the region of India presently known as Kerala, where in the 2010s they constituted about 23% of the population and were reported to be the largest Hindu community. The Malabar Ezhava group has claimed a higher rank in the Hindu caste system than the other Ezhava groups but was considered to be of a similar rank by colonial and subsequent administrations.

Ezhava dynasties such as the Mannanar existed in Kerala.

To Y: The Ezhavas, also known as Thiyya or Tiyyar in the Malabar region, are a community with origins in the region of India presently known as Kerala, where in the 2010s they constituted about 23% of the population and were reported to be the largest Hindu community in Kerala. The Malabar Thiyyar group has claimed a higher rank in the Hindu caste system than the other Ezhava groups but was considered to be of a similar rank by colonial and subsequent administrations.

Thiyyar dynasties such as the Mannanar and Kattan dynasty existed in Kerala. 207.96.13.213 (talk) 19:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 August 2024

Thiyya is not a part of ezhava community. They are a stand alone community. Hence you are requested to change the article accordingly. 59.88.240.14 (talk) 07:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. The Thiyyar community page was removed with no justification. The Thiyyar are a community belonging to the Malabar region of Kerala with a unique history and culture separate from that of the ezhavas of central and southern Kerala. Other subcastes like menons and nambiars who are subcastes of the nairs have separate articles, so why not the Thiyyas? FrancisSobieski123 (talk) 19:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. cyberdog958^Talk 06:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)